B. Carfree

I'm not sure the time their eyes are otherwise occupied is the biggest concern. I'm more worried about their brain being elsewhere as they process their conversation/facebook postings. Good motorists look away from the windshield regularly to do things like check all their mirrors, but they are still keeping a keen awareness of the environment in which they are operating front and center in their brains. Folks playing with electronic vibrators, not so much.

FBinNY 

I agree with you on this, but cell phone conversations are only one of many similar distractions. people drive with all sorts of mental and emotional distractions, whether financial, work related illness of a loved one, whatever.

I'm not a fan of distracted driving, and believe that it can be a significant contributing factor leading to accidents. But the cell phone has been getting all the press lately, and that bit of misdirection is keeping people from seeing the big picture. I have no idea of the percentage of drivers who are distracted at any time, nor of the level of distraction, but believe that distraction is nothing new. Cell phones are an additional cause, but in the scheme of things is only one of many, and IMO not by any means the biggest, or a sea change in what's happening on our roads.

phoebeisis

This is what the FEDS NHTSA has to say about it-at any moment you are sharing the road with 800,000 drivers screwing around with some device-
no doubt doing something really important- directing neurosurgery in Nepal.
My point is NOTHING the 800,000 is doing is as important as what they should be doing-
controling their car well enough to NOT bounce me between two steel signs on the way to a soft landing in the ditch
The below has plenty of academic fed speak-BUT
It does clearly state-However, they all show elevated risk (or poorer driving performance) when the driver is distracted


What is distracted driving?

There are three main types of distraction:

Visual — taking your eyes off the road
Manual — taking you hands of the wheel
Cognitive — taking your mind off what you’re doing
Distracted driving is any non-driving activity a person engages in while operating a motor vehicle. Such activities have the potential to distract the person from the primary task of driving and increase the risk of crashing.

What do the studies say about the relative risk of cell phone use when compared to other tasks like drinking or eating?

Most crashes involve a relatively unique set of circumstances that make precise calculations of risk for engaging in different behaviors very difficult. Thus, the available research does not provide a definitive answer as to which behavior is riskier. Different studies and analyses have arrived at different relative risk estimates for different tasks. However, they all show elevated risk (or poorer driving performance) when the driver is distracted. It is also important to keep in mind that some activities are carried out more frequently and for longer periods of time and may result in greater risk.

Who are the offenders, and how great a problem is this?

Every driver has from time-to-time had their attention drawn away from the driving task. The choice to engage in non-driving tasks is usually under the individual’s control and some people do so more frequently. The younger, inexperienced drivers under 20 years old have the highest proportion of distraction-related fatal crashes. They are not alone. At any given moment during the daylight hours, over 800,000 vehicles are being driven by someone using a hand-held cell phone. People of all ages are using a variety of hand-held devices, such as cell phones, mp3 players, personal digital assistants, and navigation devices, when they are behind the wheel.

genec

That is absolutely amazing... I can only believe you have the observational powers of a blind mole... if you have never seen anyone using a cellphone and driving in a reckless manner. That must be it... as there are countless studies that show the connections between cell phone use and collisions, and there are plenty of anecdotal observations of wayward cellphone using drivers.

So I can only surmise that you frankly are totally unobservant what so ever. In fact with such lousy powers of observation, you might also be a terrible driver yourself...

Here just gaze at some of these reports and data... from the National Safety Council... https://www.nsc.org/learn/NSC-Initiat...h-studies.aspx

Of course as always you will dismiss it out of hand, and we will continue to disagree on this subject... so no point in dragging on.

phoebeisis

The FEDS- NHSTA-
Attempt to quantify the risk these behaviors by replicating them in simulators

They decide which behaviors to investigate by eyeballing data- raw data -associations
Car wreck cell phone ON-found in cab
Car wreck half eaten fresh hamburger found in cab
Car wreck driver found with genitals exposed
Car wreck i-pod found in cab

Then they pay people to replicate these behaviors on a simulator-
After FIRST doing a couple of runs NOT engaging in the behavior
The performances are graded- did they stay in lane- did they apply brakes as quickly when required

Run many test subjects thru-and you should be able to put a number on How Much or How Little these behaviors change performance
Some MIGHT actually improve driving performance-safe bet if you test LOTS of subjects-some will actually improve their performance
Because they are aware that it could degrade their performance-so they increase their attention to the primary task

Now you all know about the above-but this is how associations become RISK FACTORS-
There is no way to PROVE that an activity-texting-caused a crash-
which is why I Like Always insists on "evidence"-and whatever is offered as evidence-he isn't isn't adequate-(and it isn't in a legal sense)
so he insists it is just a bias of the poster- of course I am biased against texting while driving-
There is EVIDENCE-NHTSA-look up studies they commissioned-that those behaviors increase risk-
I made a reasonable guess-hit broad daylight- while on shoulder-light traffic-by a young person-with a cell phone-who said "Sorry man I didn't see you"
NHTSA data on cell phone use make it a reasonable guess.

But everyone here -already KNOWS how risk estimates are derived

Slight aside- hard to believe you have never noticed poor driving by a Texter??
Not meaning to take a shot at you
but how much time do you spend on the roads- driving riding walking?
I spend maybe 45 minutes a day-on average 20 riding 25 driving
Probably notice 1 poor control episode a month from a cell phone talker or TEXTER- drifting out of lane- LONG DELAY(5 seconds or more -yes I count) take off from light very late braking at stop

So how much time on the roads?

I-Like-To-Bike

About 1˝ hours bicycling/day; usually everyday. Only drive when I leave town, about twice/month, or when I pickup hot pizza about twice/month.

I never saw a driver texting while moving, but see lots of people driving while holding a cell phone to their ear and not noticed that the cellphone talkers drive any differently than anybody else. But then I am neither looking to confirm my own biases nor justify my fears.

My driving and cycling experiences are quite routine because I do not project speculative "risk" factoids trolled from "studies" off of the Internet onto the specifics of my actual "road" experiences.

genec

It's not "confirming biases" when you see a wayward driver ahead and then pass and see the eyes down at a cell phone. When I see a car that seems to be swerving from side to side, is not responding well to changing traffic, and is delayed at lights and stops... I tend to think "drunk driver." I often discover instead that the eyes are averted downward toward a cell phone.

I observe the actions and then look for the cause... I am not hunting for cell phone users; I simply see bad drivers... which is something that any defensive road user will do... observe and avoid the problems. One of the reasons I can easily make such observations is that I rarely drive... I am often the passenger in a car and thus can look at drivers in other cars.

FBinNY 

My experience is more like ILTB's. I see tons of drivers on phones or texting, but don't see any obvious erratic driving.

That leads me to think that the real problem of cell phones isn't that using them while driving is so dangerous, but that it's so safe. People use them driving and nothing happens and they get comfortable with the notion that they can handle it, and most of the time they can. But while that may be true 99% of the time, and they don't directly cause accidents, they do make you more vulnerable to the kind of bad luck or bad driving of others that happens every day.

Simply put, distraction causes critical delays in response to surprises or impending events. Those delays an be the difference between a close call and a collision.

However, like ILTB, I believe that the cell phone has become a handy scapegoat, and has not caused a sea change in overall road safety. Has the advent of cell phones led to an increase in distractions or accidents? --- probably, but only incrementally.

I-Like-To-Bike

Another factor to consider is that if a significant number of people are using cell phones while driving, then it only is logical to assume that a significant number of accidents occur while a cell phone is in use; i.e. if "x" percentage of people are using a cell phone while driving, then it is likely that "x" percentage of accidents, whatever the cause, will involve a cell phone using driver. The Henny Penny obviously can then point their fingers and rant: A-Ha, I Know (ie. guess) the cause of this accident and probably every other one too; there outta be a Law!

If "y" percentage of drivers listen to music while driving, it is likely that "y" percentage of accidents "involve" music. The biased and fearful might come to all sorts of conclusions about the distracting effects of music and claim that "y" percentage of accidents are caused by the distraction of music, and in addition probably a lot more are caused by music since no hard data exists to prove anything.

FBinNY 

I agree that coincidence doesn't imply causation. However there have been a decent number of studies based not on statistical data, but on experiments in simulators. The evidence gleaned is pretty conclusive -----> distraction (any distraction) causes slower response to events.

So I have no problem saying that cell phone use is a contributing factor in the accident rate. I just think that the cell phone issue is greatly overblown.

As I said earlier, I don't believe cell phones change things much for better drivers, but it makes poor or inexperienced drivers that much worse. A compounding factor is that using cell phones while driving may be more common among younger drivers, who grew up multi-tasking and feel that they can so effectively. So we have the least experienced, most accident prone set of drivers, having the greatest confidence in their ability to use a cell phone while driving.

I-Like-To-Bike

I agree with your observations and reasoning on this subject.

In reference to your last point, in addition, there appears to be a subset of people who are either unable to use a cell phone successfully without devoting 100% of their attention to that task, or cannot comprehend that other people are not as ham fisted or clumsy as themselves behind the wheel and assume that every one else is as careless or as easily distracted as themselves.

There have been numerous threads and posts on A&S from some OCD/paranoid/handicaped-types whose subject gist is that driving or cycling requires 100% attention at all times under all conditions, and any amount of "distracting activity", from cell phones, to talking, to music listening, eating or drinking, to taking a hand off the wheel or handlebars for any purpose is an invitation to the Grim Reaper.

FBinNY 

I suspect it's a question of worldview or outlook on life. One of those glass half full or half empty kinds of things.

Many people see bicycling on roads as dangerous, and are highly focused on accidents. I see road cycling as basically safe (not 100% safe of course), and see the overall accident rate as fairly low (yes, it could be lower). I pass and am passed by hundreds if not thousands of cars and trucks daily, and yet come upon accidents very rarely, and have them personally that much more rarely.

It might also be a regional thing, but I find the vast (very vast) majority of drivers to be considerate and courteous, and not a problem to me at all. That's sort of surprising given that I'm in the metro NY area which isn't known for driver friendliness.

Back to the worldview aspect. If you feel that the roads are a war zone and cars the enemy, you'll have no problem finding "provocations" , but if you ride without looking for issues lots of minor stuff will slide under the radar, and you'll have a nicer time of it.

genec

Do you know that there has not been an increase in collisions? The data we constantly refer to is automotive deaths... which is a falling number, as cars themselves become more protective of the occupants. When have we ever reviewed actual collision data... that data that covers minor collisions that may just maim or cripple a cyclist but leaves automobile occupants perfectly healthy? Where do we compile "cyclists injured in collisions" data? And once again I will point out that no agency compiles data on the use of cellphones after any collision... thus there is NO DATA TO SOURCE.

I think the thing that I find most amazing is that with all these distractions going on, from messing with the more complicated radio/entertainment system to putting on makeup/shaving in the car to the nearly ubiquitous use of cell phones in the car, that there are not more deaths on the roads. That tells me that the cars are vastly more protective of the occupants thanks to new developments such as crumple zones, strong cages and of course the air bag... which oddly came on the driving scene at about the same time as the cell phone.

But how is the collision industry doing... and what about auto insurers? Of course both hold their data pretty close to the chest.

genec

And your conclusions to all the studies done by various agencies that cite distraction hazards... I suppose they too are just money grubbing demons just looking for funding for some frivolous subject... No doubt the reason they all come to similar conclusions.

Well I guess I should also give up wearing seatbelts... no doubt the first "answer" looking for a cause... Sigh.

I understand your statistical naysaying when one certain individual presents his "solutions" based on his views and hand picked studies, but to naysay the work of dozens if not hundreds of independent studies is really head in the sand.

FBinNY 

Actually the data you are looking for is compiled, at least as far as deaths go, and probably also for serious injuries. Look at data sets that show "non-occupant" deaths or injuries. Some even list pedestrian and cyclist deaths separately.

There's poorer data on less serious accidents because it's a broad category to define and categorize meaningfully, and because so many minor events simply aren't reported. We do know from collected data that the total number of cyclist deaths has remained relatively flat for a decent number of years, as have pedestrian deaths. pedbikeinfo.org/data/factsheet (one source offered by example).

As to whether distraction would cause an increase in minor vs. serious accidents, I suspect the conclusion will depend on your assumptions. IMO it's reasonable to speculate that distraction would cause a shift to more serious accidents, because more would occur with little or no braking before the crash, but that's just a guess.

But what we do know, is that there's been no significant change in things since the cell phone entered the picture. Of course there are so many variables skewing the numbers in one direction or another that it's difficult or nearly impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions based on the data alone.

There's good data, but the analysis depends on who you ask. For example, would an increase in cyclist deaths reflect more careless drivers, or more cyclists on the road?

jon c. 

That's a bit surprising in that it's a rare day I don't see it.

Less common, but not as unusual as it should be, is a driver working on a laptop sitting on the passenger seat.

I have no statistics to prove this is dangerous, but was glad one day that the driver on the laptop who drifted all the way across the shoulder and on to the grass did so 100 yards or so after passing me.

AlmostTrick

Playing with a cell phone while driving has to increase the risk of having close calls or collisions. It might only be a tiny bit, (especially for the gifted folks who are better than everyone else) but it's there nonetheless.

genec

Again all the compiled data is based on deaths... we don't know if the number of fender benders has increased and if so, why... and the coloration between the introduction of cell phones and airbags... one could be driving death rates down, while the other raises them... but because we cannot filter that data effectively (cannot access cell phone records at the time of crashes) we have no "smoking gun," which is what ILTB and others want.

So since there is no "smoking gun" we instead choose to ignore studies that indicate that distractions from things like cell phones can be significant.

Of course distractions have been around since there were drivers... but in the past, things like car radios and other automotive controls were adjustable by the driver by simply feeling for the right knob or switch. One developed muscle memory that allowed the motorist to keep eyes on the road, and yet still tune through the dial. What we are seeing these days is a number of video screens that require "eyes on" to enable a touch feature... and unlike that Big Gulp soda that rests in a cup holder, the cell phone can ring at very inopportune moments and demand immediate attention... distracting a motorist at the worst possible times.

genec

Exactly... which is why I express disbelief in this lack of observation by some here.

Now let me go on to say that what happens in your area or my area may differ from what happens in their area... due to road layout, traffic speeds and density. My observations in the middle of the big city are not the same as what I see out on country two lane highways.

I-Like-To-Bike

A reason for your and other similar biased "observations" about has already been explained. See https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...l#post18419507

Your "disbelief" is explained by your belief in the accuracy of your fear driven "observations" about the extent of reckless texting drivers even when your perceptions are guesses, conjured and extrapolated/projected from stuff you read on the Internet.

genec

So any and all of us that DO see motorists behaving badly with cell phone in hand are all just imagining what we've seen. Got it.

And the various studies?

phoebeisis

1.5 hours-fair amount of time
I ride 45 minutes a day but just 20 is on roads/streets-the rest is up and down the levee

When I used to motorcycle ride-
the main behavior that un-nerved me
was seeing the back of the driver's head with his left hand to ear-
as he is getting ready to pull out-across my path-and head in the "other direction"
He is looking at the traffic in the lane he is planning to end up in-
but NOT at me-or other traffic in the lane he has to cross
Well 99% of the time-his car starts moving-while I am still seeing the back of his head
His head-phone attached-
SLOWLY starts to swivel around as his car inches into my lane
He FINALLY sees me-last second-
Jams on his brakes-and I change my line to miss the nose of his car.

But on a MOTORCYCLE watching this-you debate-
while getting off gas early-
Should I just BRAKE and stop-and maybe get run down from behind
will this stupid MoFo notice me in time to stop??
This experience-extremely common on motorcycles-just took all the fun out of it.

On a bike-no problem-speed soooo low-and I can bail right of the road-who cares
In a car-so what-if he pulls out-I jam on the brakes-if I get tagged from behind-so what-I won't get hurt-
This was my cell phone experience while motorcycle riding-car speeds but bicycle protection(none)

I don't worry about cell phone use when I'm driving-3000-5200 lbs of steel-and lots of crush zone-who cares-
Bicycle-motorcycle-different story


Those Fed stats-9% increase in injuries from distracted driving-
Is what you would expect from a relatively low speed rear ending-
and as some of you have suggested
many TEXTERS CELL PHONE USERS- probably drive more carefully(mainly dropping their speed) when using the device

So more injuries-after YEARS of dropping injuries-is what you would expect if TEXTING increases risk of crash-not more deaths-but more injuries

Paul Barnard

I suffer from chronic migraines. They are my biggest distractor. I simply cannot process information as well when I have crushing headaches. I have come to recognize this and drive accordingly.

I drive a two hour round trip to work every day and then drive about four hours over the course of a work day. EVERY single day I see at least one person dangerously engaged in their cell phone. They drift off the road, across the centerline, change lanes in an unsafe manner, linger after lights change, go slow in the fast lane, etc. Cell phones are a significant hazard in my opinion.

I-Like-To-Bike

I do not doubt that YOU "see" what you expect/want to see.
The various distracted driver "studies" referenced by the Henny Pennys on A&S seldom if ever are observing motorists on the streets or roads, but rather test subjects in a contrived lab or test track track setting.

phoebeisis

I Like To Bike
Your comment
The various distracted driver "studies" referenced by the Henny Pennys on A&S seldom if ever are observing motorists on the streets or roads, but rather test subjects in a contrived lab or test track track setting.

Those contrived settings-Simulators -

EVERY AIR FORCE EVERY AIR LINE in the world uses simulators as a measure of flying competence-training-testing-and re-testing
You will have to do better than a prissy dismissal "Henny Penny…contrived lab.."
of driving simulator tests of the behavior

Potentially Dangerous behaviors-texting while driving- CAN'T be directly tested on REAL STREETS ROADS
And observational studies-have some poor SOB grad students parked in front of a BUNCH of very high resolution monitors-busy intersection
Still wouldn't PROVE causation-

So SIMULATORS are the only practical/safe way to actually measure degraded driving skills
You KNOW that-despite your Henny Penny dismissal of same.
You're a bright guy-gotta' up your game a bit.
No No No No closes out of town.
Emphasize that the awareness of the distraction
makes users concentrate HARDER on driving-(some users)
that is plausible-
You are all but arguing that cell phone use DOESN'T increase crashes-
and point blank saying you have never noticed poor driving from a TEXTER??
Meaning you are stunningly unobservant-
or live somewhere with very adept drivers