jfowler85

No, but the law will benefit the families of those killed. What's your point, again?

Dave Cutter

Really? She is a stupid drunk. She isn't likely a monster.... just a stupid drunk. I can forgive that. You're just grasping at straws. Sorry if my posts ruin your hate/rant.

I can assure you.... my posts will not keep you well, or make you happy.

For most cyclists... there is a joy in bicycling. It is a precious pleasure worth far more than any tiny risk from injury.

FrenchFit 

Right on!

slimyfrog

My hate/rant? What straws? Please clarify.

Dave Cutter

Sorry. I didn't really mean YOUR hate/rant in particular.

Grasping at straws is a common idiom. I wouldn't have thought you would need clarity.

slimyfrog

Ah. The fact that you quoted me made me think you were replying to me.
I know what grasping at straws means, I was asking what you were referring to.

Chris0516

According to Wikipedia(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntingtown,_Maryland), the town has less than 3,500 residents. The county(Calvert) is located in the northern end of the state. It is one of the smaller counties in the state. Compared to the 650,000+ in the county I am in. So, Justice there is not surprising. In the county I am in on the border DC. They side with the driver practically all the time. If a cyclist gets' hit and/or killed. Justice favors' the perp in this county. Even when the cyclist is attacked.
I have pity for my severely mentally ill (ex)fiance. Because, While she lied to authorities about me. When it came to my physical health, she helped me without reservation.

I have no pity for my (ex)wife. She never was serious when she took our wedding vows. She nearly let me die right in front of her, without lifting a finger. So, I have no compassion for the drunk that killed the cyclists'.

The drunk, and my (ex)wife both did what they did, with blatant ignorance of the potential consequences.

Dave Cutter

Selective compassion and pity? Very impressive! I hadn't even realized humans were capable of such a feat of emotional detachment for any more than brief actions. You should teach classes.

Ether teach and spread this valuable knowledge..... or realize that the hatred that inhibits our natural human empathy.... is enormously self-destructive. The selective hatred that blocks your natural empathy has no effect on the ones you chose to hate. But does have actual consequences on your own well being.

We are NOT Gods. We are just people. We do not decide the future of others. We do not grant passage into heaven, or condemn souls to darkness. Our compassionate emotions do not empower OTHERS..... they heal ourselves. As humans... our hatred is internal. And whereas hatred is a powerful human emotion.... it's power is self-destructive.

I never understand these threads where posters solicit others to join them in hatred for those who have wronged or harmed other cyclists. To what end?

I know...... some believe that such actions could result in stiffer more punitive laws against those that may somehow harm a cyclist. And that we should seek to widen the gap of cooperative understanding with increasingly more punitive militaristic police actions. In hopes that the fear of harming cyclists... would make us all cyclists safer.

Yeah.... I gave up belief in magic as a child.

Cycling is relatively safe. There is no activity that does not also take lives. People will always die. Accidents will always happen. People can not be forced to grow past being mere humans.

Fear, anger, and hatred destroy far more lives than accidents on highways. I chose to be a joyful cyclist. No... I haven't mastered fearless and joyful cyclist yet. But I can (for the most part) discard most fear as quickly as it happens. At least, with a little effort, I manage to keep my human compassions intact. And... I highly recommend that.

KonAaron Snake 

I can have some, limited, empathy for addicts...while still wanting punishment for the action and safety for the rest of us. I don't know what's fair in this case...she isn't a cold blooded ruthless killer, but she was grossly negligent/stupid and killed two people. What's fair? Better people than me probably have difficulty with that call.

Hopefully some of the new technology...the cameras, radars and sensors...will help in the future. My empathy, or lack thereof, is probably influenced by having had an addict brother in law. He used "sickness" as an excuse and a way not to take responsibility for himself.

wphamilton

Dying in bed after a long life is not the same result as being killed by a self-centered drunk. Anger and punishment, although no help for the deceased are vital for the living, in that it makes such despicable behavior less likely to end other lives.

If we refuse to condemn even the worst of transgressions, on the basis of sympathy for the perpetrator, or the false analogy that everyone dies, or any other rationalization, then we might as well just align ourselves with them. Because such attitudes and responses serve to condone and facilitate that behavior.

enigmaT120

"Harboring hate or resentment is like drinking poison and hoping the other guy dies."

I don't know who said that, but it's what Dave is talking about.

Dave Cutter

+1 Yep. I believe only a small fraction of the forums membership doesn't catch on. A few others are hopelessly lost in their own fear and hatred. My heart goes out to them... they have my pity. But they make their choices.

The sad part is.... hate and fear is not advocacy! And the hateful demands for cyclist safety from a population divided by hateful separation will never bode well for the cyclists. No non-cyclist is ever going to be attracted to cycling because of these anti-motorist name-calling rants.

Dave Cutter

I don't think I advocated "sympathy" for the stupid drunk.... only pity. Sympathy.... I offer to the family's of both the deceases and the drunk. If a loved one of yours gets drunk and causes such destruction.... you might appreciate a little sympathy.

I should point out that "the analogy that everyone dies"... is not false. People die on the golf course, and playing baseball, and setting at their desks at work. Cycling is NOT a high-risk dangerous activity. But even when cycling... people will die. In the end... we all die.

I offer NO rationalization. And... moreover I fully reject YOUR rationalization that somehow humanizing other humans even when their behavior is bad.... would somehow promote bad behavior. Human compassion has always breed more compassion.... which is at the root of proper behavior.

Dave Cutter

+1 I feel exactly the same. Others (peers actually) will judge.

Yep. I understand that too. Fear, deception, violence, addictive self-destructive behavior of every sort imaginable. Humans are amazing animals!

But sometimes.... it's nice just to pet a dog.

B. Carfree

Game theory work has apparently shown that one can increase moral behavior by having consistent punishments doled out to those who don't follow the rules. It's also shown that a society gets maximal moral behavior if punishment is also doled out to those who witness transgressions but fail to punish the miscreants.

Like it or not, apply it here or not, but I think it explains a what's going on with the culture on our roadways. We have almost no system of consistent punishment and everyone accepts that it's just fine to ignore any law that is inconvenient at the time (which some even take to the level of driving drunk).

My sympathy is with the family and friends of the victims and with the legislators who are likely to get an earful but know they can't do much about the situation if they wish to continue in office.

Dave Cutter

They've (in real life, not theory) have been chopping off the hands of thieves in The Kingdom of Saudi for 1500 years. Thief remains a problem.

Yes. All laws are always treated with discretion. That is after all... how humans think.

prathmann

Game theory hasn't shown that extreme harshness of punishment is key to deterrence, but rather that consistency and a high capture rate are key. If the capture rate is low then no matter how harsh the penalty it won't be successful in deterring others since they will feel sure that they'll be clever enough to avoid being caught. Even those who aren't clever enough tend to think that they are.

Dave Cutter

Sort of like people going to Vegas huh? Even though every human on Earth knows full well the odds of actually winning are stacked against them..... people behave exactly like... well people. They take a chance. It's almost like the human brain is wired that way.... isn't it.

People will always be (and behave) just exactly like the species they are. All these silly efforts to somehow alter the species through laws or studies or whatever... is a waste of time. Those who live with the crippling fear that drives them to the point where they wish harm on others... deserve our pity. I hope they find comfort somehow.

Bicycling is a fun, relatively safe, and easy to learn activity suitable for exercise or even basic transportation. I think building bridges or cooperative understandings with the motorists we share the roads with would benefit everyone. If nothing else... a cheerful, healthy, and friendly face representing cycling fun would be good advocacy. And a much better "draw" to cycling than the fearful, finger waving, curmudgeon wanting yet a greater share of tax dollars for more special infrastructure.

It is often tragic when cyclists die. No one likes hearing or reading about it. No cyclist wishes to be ran over. But the facts are.... life has it's ouchies! And cycling will never be exempt for the same hazards that are always with all humans at all times.

Chris0516

But there is holding someone accountable. Just as the law will hold the drunk driver accountable for their actions. I am holding my (ex)wife accountable for her lack of response to my health. Because it could have killed me.

Think of it a little like one of the final scenes from 'Die Hard2'. Where reporter Richard Thornberg(William Atherton) asks an old lady to help him up, and she just calls him an a-hole. While his character was a greedy sleazoid. The physical position he was in, on the ground. Was the position I was in, when I had a seizure in bed, and my (ex)wife just stared at me. Coming that close to death, not on account of my health, but on account of ignorance. Still remains fresh.

You said "the worst of transgressions". That is subjective to, who, what context, when, where, why, and how, it happens.
I don't hope my (ex)wife dies(we all do at some time, and place). At the same time. I won't get emotionally involved in her recovery.

Dave Cutter

https://youtu.be/ns6OAytgKwc

okane

Drunks who kill innocent people, child molesters, and people who torture animals for fun (mike vick)....God may forgive you but I won't....may you all rot in hell!

wphamilton

Those are some of the reasons why "we all die anyway" is a false analogy. Also and maybe most important are what the actual result is, and the person's intent. But regardless of how you judge what's the worst, it's still true that if we fail to condemn those actions, or excuse them, out of pity or sympathy or anything else, then we are facilitating their recurrence. A casual disregard of human life, in particular, will remain so unless there are social and physical consequences.

I can't comment on what happened with your wife but the person who climbs into a car drunk and kills somebody knows the danger and does it anyway. Barring some emergency, it's just more convenient to just take the car. To me, if not in the law itself, that describes their intent and their disregard of the danger to others.

Dave Cutter

Do not fall for the "trap" that feelings... are as external action. They are not. Feelings are entirely internal. Your condemnation has no magical powers and no one suffers from your hatred.... other than of course.... yourself.

You should hold yourself in higher regard than as a mere martyr to suffer silently for those you described.

GreenAnvil

My goodness gracious! Folks, accountability is not the same as lack of compassion. The lady that caused this accident is a human being and deserving of compassion, understanding, etc. etc., but she also took the lives of two equally deserving human beings, and as such must face the consequences of her actions. This has nothing to do with lack of love or forgiveness. Accountability and love/compassion are not mutually exclusive.

Feldman

When will we get our heads out of our butts and the sand and realize that DRUNK DRIVERS ARE NOT HUMAN BEINGS, GOD DAMNIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!