Hard takedown of rude 14-year-old for helmet & sidewalk riding violations
02-02-16, 05:28 PM
#27
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We need to keep in mind that the “takedown” wasn’t because of the violations, but because of what happened after the stop. An officer issuing a citation for an infraction is within his rights in insisting of your name and other identifying info. Refusal to provide that makes you liable to arrest.
This isn’t to defend the cop, who clearly needs to learn about proportional response, and how to manage situations so they don’t get out of hand. Rather than engage the youth in a physical attack, he might have called for backup, or at least called a supervisor for advice.
Sometimes cops need to be more creative when minor nonsense looks like it might spin out of control. In his shoes, I might have told the offender that is was no problem, I didn’t need his name right now and he was free to go ----- without his bike, and he could reclaim his bike by coming to the station with his parents.
Years ago park police had a problem with mtn bikers riding in restricted areas and damaging trails in a large park. Citations didn’t help, nor did frank conversations about erosion and the like and pleas to be cooperative and stick to the open trails. Eventually they came up with something that did work. The officers patrolled with enduro motorcycles and would stop offenders, and give them a choice of a big dollar fine or their front wheel, which was easy enough for them to carry back to the station, with a shoulder harness they had for the job.
It could be a long 2-5 mile hike, carrying your bike, to reclaim your wheel, which was cheerfully returned -- no citation -- and eventually the problem was solved.
It could be a long 2-5 mile hike, carrying your bike, to reclaim your wheel, which was cheerfully returned -- no citation -- and eventually the problem was solved.
Not saying police are always right, but they are also not always wrong as it seems the sentiment is way too often here.
As usual we don’t have the whole story and are still making rash judgments
Without the context of what happened before there is no way any rational judgment can me made. Did the kid swing at the mountie or otherwise provoke escalation?
How edited is the video? again we don’t know, it could very well be edited to show a specific viewpoint.
As usual we don’t have the whole story and are still making rash judgments
Without the context of what happened before there is no way any rational judgment can me made. Did the kid swing at the mountie or otherwise provoke escalation?
How edited is the video? again we don’t know, it could very well be edited to show a specific viewpoint.
02-02-16, 05:40 PM
#28
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This. Once again we have for the public a clip of part of the video that starts with the “perp” already on the ground with the cop attempting to restrain. We have no idea what led to the start of this clip that was cut out and shown. Sure gets all the uninformed in an uproar though.
It doesn’t matter. There has to be a sense of proportionality to the underlying offense. Like you, I can’t comment on the specific action because I don’t know what happened immediately before. But even the official version says it started with a simple traffic stop over riding on the sidewalk without a helmet. Moreover the officer had to know it was a juvenile, so it’s up to the police to explain how it got from A to B.
Just as we wouldn’t condone a high speed car chase through downtown over a purse snatching, we need to be very wary of a traffic citation that ends up in a street brawl. Doesn’t mean the kid is without blame, just that the officer has failed to manage a situation, which is part of his job description.
Just as we wouldn’t condone a high speed car chase through downtown over a purse snatching, we need to be very wary of a traffic citation that ends up in a street brawl. Doesn’t mean the kid is without blame, just that the officer has failed to manage a situation, which is part of his job description.
I don’t disagree about what caused the RCMP officer’s response. But to use an utterly strange analogy. In the movie ‘Christine’(Keith Gordon, Harry Dean Stanton, Alexandra Paul). The car gets’ revenge on anyone that has teased Keith Gordon’s character. It seemed like, the RCMP officer was thinking, ‘This kid is on bike. I can take him down. If he were in a car, I wouldn’t have to’.
Even though the teen was insolent and rude to the officer. The officer still went over the top. I have had to live with a brain injury all my life. But I wouldn’t wish one on my worst enemy.
Even though the teen was insolent and rude to the officer. The officer still went over the top. I have had to live with a brain injury all my life. But I wouldn’t wish one on my worst enemy.
Without bodycam footage IF it even exists we’ll never really know what precipitated the incident. And I think that most here agree that pretty much no matter what lead up to the “take down” it was out of proportion to the triggering event. And that it could have been handled in a much better manner.
02-02-16, 05:42 PM
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We're not in a position to do anything except voice an opinion. Nothing I say will affect the officer's job reviews, a possible civil award, or anything at all. Plus the officer and/or the PD can always provide their version of events and maybe provide the needed context or clarity.
OTOH - if nobody comments or raises questions, then there's no need for the PD to respond and provide the clarity the public is entitled to. So far we have the video shouting the outcome, and we base opinions on that. If/when more information comes out then we can adjust our opinions accordingly.
In all of this is the unstated preface --- Based on the facts as presented so far, I think.......
OTOH - if nobody comments or raises questions, then there's no need for the PD to respond and provide the clarity the public is entitled to. So far we have the video shouting the outcome, and we base opinions on that. If/when more information comes out then we can adjust our opinions accordingly.
In all of this is the unstated preface --- Based on the facts as presented so far, I think.......
As I've said, hopefully bodycam footage does exist and will be made public at some later point in time.
02-02-16, 05:50 PM
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From what I’ve seen so far, any opinion of mine would be solely based on speculation, and my personal biases. I guess I rather look (and see whats really there) before I leap.
Personally, I’ve used more force to restrain a friend from getting into a bar fight, and the video looks like a mild event, but I’m seeing this from a ex-military and blue collar point of view.
Personally, I’ve used more force to restrain a friend from getting into a bar fight, and the video looks like a mild event, but I’m seeing this from a ex-military and blue collar point of view.
Agreed, opinions are like arseholes everyone has one.
02-02-16, 06:48 PM
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Mine is that there is no justification for any violent take-down unless the citizen is resisting arrest or getting physical.
So all that I have to know about this incident is, was the kid under arrest? Did the kid get physical with the LEO?
So all that I have to know about this incident is, was the kid under arrest? Did the kid get physical with the LEO?
02-02-16, 08:30 PM
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Its a good idea to keep in mind there are plenty of "minors" out there committing murder, ****, torture, assault, armed robbery, arson, and a host of other adult crimes. While obviously the infractions that instigated the incident were trivial, they don't define what type of person the "minor" in question is.
02-02-16, 08:55 PM
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I believe in Canada if the officer believes you've committed an offence and you refuse to provide ID the officer can arrest you. Not enough evidence on video to determine if the kid resisted but I think it's unlikely the officer just threw him down on the ground without giving him a chance to cooperate.
02-02-16, 10:49 PM
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hmm. As I've noticed, a lot of the good folks commented are from USA. Its not very often that an incident would happen in Canada that warrant this type of response. The mounties take their jobs seriously, and they are out to protect the safety of everyone. I don't know the full story, but the kid did not do what the mountie asked, and that warranted a response from the mountie, which involved arresting him after attempting to subdue him. Possibly because the kid was belligerent or something. like I mentioned, I don't know the full story.
As to a cyclist travelling across Canada, Don't worry about the Mounties. They are a wonderful police service across the country. As for Toronto, They have all three branches (Municipal Police, Provincial police, and RCMP) However, the RCMP is more geared to Serious crime that involved Government, or espionage, or Terrorism. Inside the RCMP, there is another branch called CIS which is Canadian Intelligence Service which is responsible for Terrorism and Espionage.
I rarely have any problems with the Mounties and found them to be quite friendly and cordial.
W
As to a cyclist travelling across Canada, Don't worry about the Mounties. They are a wonderful police service across the country. As for Toronto, They have all three branches (Municipal Police, Provincial police, and RCMP) However, the RCMP is more geared to Serious crime that involved Government, or espionage, or Terrorism. Inside the RCMP, there is another branch called CIS which is Canadian Intelligence Service which is responsible for Terrorism and Espionage.
I rarely have any problems with the Mounties and found them to be quite friendly and cordial.
W
02-03-16, 08:22 AM
#35
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As for Toronto, They have all three branches (Municipal Police, Provincial police, and RCMP) However, the RCMP is more geared to Serious crime that involved Government, or espionage, or Terrorism. Inside the RCMP, there is another branch called CIS which is Canadian Intelligence Service which is responsible for Terrorism and Espionage.
I rarely have any problems with the Mounties and found them to be quite friendly and cordial.
W
I rarely have any problems with the Mounties and found them to be quite friendly and cordial.
W
You should really get up to date on things. The RCMP role in national security -- also unfortunately called the Security Service or SS -- ended in 1984 with the formation of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS). The OPP and RCMP have very little to do with policing in Toronto. In many other provinces and cities the RCMP is contracted as a local police force. Anyhow, I realize that none of this holds much interest for BF readers.
I agree that the boy was probably responsible for creating a situation which led to over-reaction but it does appear -- unless he physically attacked the officer -- that it was a considerable over-reaction and looks very bad. In fairness, the officer does seem to have kept his cool throughout.
02-03-16, 09:13 AM
#36
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In looking at some of our local mugshots, plus watching the video in the OP, IMO, this arrest does not qualify as a hard takedown in our area, since neither the officer or teen had to report to the hospital afterwards.
02-03-16, 01:24 PM
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Which is where bodycams on all LEOs would be a good idea. Yes, I know that it's been argued that even they don't show the "whole" story. But in today's world where just about everyone walking down the street has a cell phone on their person and most if not all cell phones have the ability to record video the bodycams in conjunction with cell phone footage would certainly show most if not all of what happened.
Its a good idea to keep in mind there are plenty of "minors" out there committing murder, ****, torture, assault, armed robbery, arson, and a host of other adult crimes. While obviously the infractions that instigated the incident were trivial, they don't define what type of person the "minor" in question is.
02-03-16, 01:33 PM
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I believe in Canada if the officer believes you've committed an offence and you refuse to provide ID the officer can arrest you. Not enough evidence on video to determine if the kid resisted but I think it's unlikely the officer just threw him down on the ground without giving him a chance to cooperate.
Most police everywhere are friendly. Except when they're not. American police seem to expect that everyone is armed and respond accordingly. We don't have such a big problem in that regard so there tends to be a more relaxed attitude.
You should really get up to date on things. The RCMP role in national security -- also unfortunately called the Security Service or SS -- ended in 1984 with the formation of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS). The OPP and RCMP have very little to do with policing in Toronto. In many other provinces and cities the RCMP is contracted as a local police force. Anyhow, I realize that none of this holds much interest for BF readers.
I agree that the boy was probably responsible for creating a situation which led to over-reaction but it does appear -- unless he physically attacked the officer -- that it was a considerable over-reaction and looks very bad. In fairness, the officer does seem to have kept his cool throughout.
You should really get up to date on things. The RCMP role in national security -- also unfortunately called the Security Service or SS -- ended in 1984 with the formation of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS). The OPP and RCMP have very little to do with policing in Toronto. In many other provinces and cities the RCMP is contracted as a local police force. Anyhow, I realize that none of this holds much interest for BF readers.
I agree that the boy was probably responsible for creating a situation which led to over-reaction but it does appear -- unless he physically attacked the officer -- that it was a considerable over-reaction and looks very bad. In fairness, the officer does seem to have kept his cool throughout.
I almost hate to ask what does?
02-03-16, 02:53 PM
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02-03-16, 04:10 PM
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From the way the kid was acting, I wouldn't be surprised if he had done something to provoke the mountie. Pure speculation of course. As for "choking," well, the kid could talk so I'm going to say the mountie was not choking him.
I don't know why people have a problem with police. It's almost like kids rebelling against their parents. People don't like other people to have power over them. I've never personally had a problem with any police. I'm always polite and if I did something wrong (speeding) then I'll accept the consequences of my actions. Being a police officer must be a hard job. Could YOU imagine walking up to a lifted truck in Texas and asking for license and registration? How would you feel if you knew the person was A. probably pissed off, B. probably armed, C. may or may not have previous offenses. Would you have the balls to give someone like that a ticket?
I don't know why people have a problem with police. It's almost like kids rebelling against their parents. People don't like other people to have power over them. I've never personally had a problem with any police. I'm always polite and if I did something wrong (speeding) then I'll accept the consequences of my actions. Being a police officer must be a hard job. Could YOU imagine walking up to a lifted truck in Texas and asking for license and registration? How would you feel if you knew the person was A. probably pissed off, B. probably armed, C. may or may not have previous offenses. Would you have the balls to give someone like that a ticket?
02-04-16, 10:44 AM
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Yesterday was over 15 degrees Celcius here! And there is no snow on the ground! And you don't have to wear a helmet! And apparently you can also ride illegally on the side walks without consequence!!
02-04-16, 12:04 PM
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RCMP do not have a presence in TO, and it is the RCMP who are the worst thugs in Canadian law enforcement, historically. RCMP are only around federal sites (like House of Commons in Ottawa) and in provinces where there is no provincial police force, and Ontario has the OPP.
02-04-16, 12:13 PM
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02-04-16, 12:14 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G55bnP5sDjI
02-04-16, 01:54 PM
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I saw an officer using low level force on a non-compliant subject.
02-04-16, 03:04 PM
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From the way the kid was acting, I wouldn't be surprised if he had done something to provoke the mountie. Pure speculation of course. As for "choking," well, the kid could talk so I'm going to say the mountie was not choking him.
I don't know why people have a problem with police. It's almost like kids rebelling against their parents. People don't like other people to have power over them. I've never personally had a problem with any police. I'm always polite and if I did something wrong (speeding) then I'll accept the consequences of my actions. Being a police officer must be a hard job. Could YOU imagine walking up to a lifted truck in Texas and asking for license and registration? How would you feel if you knew the person was A. probably pissed off, B. probably armed, C. may or may not have previous offenses. Would you have the balls to give someone like that a ticket?
I don't know why people have a problem with police. It's almost like kids rebelling against their parents. People don't like other people to have power over them. I've never personally had a problem with any police. I'm always polite and if I did something wrong (speeding) then I'll accept the consequences of my actions. Being a police officer must be a hard job. Could YOU imagine walking up to a lifted truck in Texas and asking for license and registration? How would you feel if you knew the person was A. probably pissed off, B. probably armed, C. may or may not have previous offenses. Would you have the balls to give someone like that a ticket?
Also, riding on the sidewalk is a "minor offense" until the cyclist runs over a pedestrian and seriously injures them. Riding a bike on the sidewalk is dangerous for all parties.
02-04-16, 03:28 PM
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From the way the kid was acting, I wouldn't be surprised if he had done something to provoke the mountie. Pure speculation of course. As for "choking," well, the kid could talk so I'm going to say the mountie was not choking him.
I don't know why people have a problem with police. It's almost like kids rebelling against their parents. People don't like other people to have power over them. I've never personally had a problem with any police. I'm always polite and if I did something wrong (speeding) then I'll accept the consequences of my actions. Being a police officer must be a hard job. Could YOU imagine walking up to a lifted truck in Texas and asking for license and registration? How would you feel if you knew the person was A. probably pissed off, B. probably armed, C. may or may not have previous offenses. Would you have the balls to give someone like that a ticket?
I don't know why people have a problem with police. It's almost like kids rebelling against their parents. People don't like other people to have power over them. I've never personally had a problem with any police. I'm always polite and if I did something wrong (speeding) then I'll accept the consequences of my actions. Being a police officer must be a hard job. Could YOU imagine walking up to a lifted truck in Texas and asking for license and registration? How would you feel if you knew the person was A. probably pissed off, B. probably armed, C. may or may not have previous offenses. Would you have the balls to give someone like that a ticket?
02-04-16, 03:57 PM
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02-04-16, 04:05 PM
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What a smart mouthed teenager? That's expected.
A police officer using excessive force? No surprise.
Not a black person? Whaaaaat?
Well the kid can't call it racism.
At least the officer is not discriminating. Good for him?
A police officer using excessive force? No surprise.
Not a black person? Whaaaaat?
Well the kid can't call it racism.
At least the officer is not discriminating. Good for him?
