Digital_Cowboy

Like Barny Fife, he shouldn't be allowed to carry a loaded gun. Probably let alone be a cop in the first place.

Exactly, and if the roads did pay for themselves then why does so much of the money for the roads come from the general fund that we all pay into?

Not to mention the plain and simple fact that either directly through car ownership or indirectly by purchasing goods and services we ALL pay for the roads. Yet too many people just do not get that.

Exactly, I "loved" how the cop questioned the poor road conditions. Hell a blind person could see that that "shoulder" was in poor repair. And in this case it would have been helpful if the cyclist had had a video showing the poor state that that road is/was in.

Maybe they both knew that they were wrong and hoped that if they applied enough intimidation that the cyclist would just "cave" and pay his fine.

I would hope not. As doesn't the accused have the right to present witnesses to prove their side?

Digital_Cowboy

Nor am I, but given that the accused is if I am not mistaken. Allowed to present witnesses in their defense I would have to think that it is illegal. Too true, and again it might have been even more helpful if the cyclist had had a camera as well so that they could show the poor road conditions.

No, there's no bias against cyclists.

I'd have called the station and reported him to his supervisor.

Yeah, I couldn't help but notice that s well. That whole damned road looked to be in poor condition.

Question, are their dashcams ALWAYS running, or do they have to start them, or what?

Digital_Cowboy

Somehow I suspect that no matter what happened to the cop in question that he'll blame the cyclist for it. And is if he hasn't already is/was on the lookout for the next cyclist to take out his rage on.

I was wondering the same thing. And like you I didn't see anything indicating that other than maybe a short bit of riding two abreast I didn't really see anything that really looked like they were riding four abreast. Hell that lane doesn't look as if it would support that.

I guess according to this cop, no they can't. Just motorized traffic.

Hell I'd like to see him on a bicycle. Maybe if he logged some decent miles either in the bicycle patrol or using a bicycle as his primary mode of transportation he'd be singing a different tune.

I guess he is a former student, but still has some affiliation with the school.

Sadly, I think it's probably likely that his disdain for cyclists has grown even deeper. Especially if he received any sort of discipline as a result of this traffic stop.

I've seen this video a few times before seeing it here. I'll have to look at it again to see if I see that. I do not recall hear any other warnings though. If the dashcam was able to pick up the audio outside of the car then shouldn't it have picked up anything said inside the car?

noglider 

There is a nurture/nature riddle around cops. Some say that people who were bullies in school grow up to be cops. Also, some victims of bullies become cops. Both types of people want authority.

Then the job can make a person into a bully. I'm sure cops have to face belligerent people often who claim they haven't violated any laws when they have. I imagine this can make it hard even for a reasonable cop to listen to reasonable arguments because he gets lip so much of the time. This is why I try not to argue with them, at least not too much. I make a gesture to show that I am listening to their point of view before offering my own.

A judge is so named because he is supposed to have judgment and because his job is to decide. A cop is not a judge. This is actually a good thing. The cop works on his training, and his training is guaranteed to be incomplete. Cops are bound to make bad calls. This is why you sometimes have to finish the deal with a judge. We could go on all day about how it shouldn't be that way, but do you want the guy on the street to have the last say? I don't. Better training of cops is, of course, ideal, but it will never be perfect. This video and story illustrate all of this.

Digital_Cowboy

This is true. I just read about an incident (from Ohio) where a cyclist was stopped and even though the cop in question was reading the statute from his own book it seemed as if he was still having a hard time coming to grips with what he had read.

Yeah, a few years back I had a St. Pete cop do the same thing, only he told me to either ride closer to the curb or to get on the sidewalk (which is legal in the state of Florida unless local laws prevent it). I tried to get him to follow me into the parking lot just in front of us but he continued on his way.

The irony is that this was at 10:00pm and the second lane over was EMPTY, except for him. So who was I "impeding?"

+100

Both I think were obvious on the video. It shouldn't have needed to go that far. The cop and the first judge should have known what the law was and that what they were doing was safe and legal.

Digital_Cowboy

Exactly as well as the right to defend oneself with witnesses.

The cop should have handled things better and realized that no law(s) were being broken.

Okay, and what is that stop sign thing on the cops car? And shouldn't a state trooper more so than a local cop know the laws that they're supposed to be enforcing?

Maybe he drank too much of the water in Flint.

If they are then both should be voted out of office at the first chance.

CliffordK

Unfortunately the US laws have become so complicated. And, then one hires a lawyer to unravel the fine nuances of the laws that no ordinary person knows.

I suppose one has to have those intricate details of the laws, but for the most part is is hardly even published. The laws are always presented to the people in summary form.

How much of our law is COPYRIGHTED? All those volumes and volumes of case history? I detest laws that refer to commercial copyrighted texts such as building codes.

And, the police officers don't know or understand the laws that they're ticketing people for? Or, lie in court to cover up their mistakes?

In the 10 second clip before the stop, there is nothing that would indicate a reason for the stop. Perspective may have looked like 4-wide in the intersection, but I don't think they were riding that way.

I have to wonder if the police officer had rolled by the cyclists or stopped them earlier, gave them a warning. Then decided that they were ignoring the officer's warning. In which case, it should have been the rider who was riding 2-wide that was ticketed.

Anybody hear about a draft line and passing riders?

Maybe the whole issue is going out for a Sunday afternoon ride. Like no drivers ever go for a Sunday afternoon drive

Digital_Cowboy

If ignorance of the law isn't excuse for us, it shouldn't be one for the law enforcement or judicial community.

I agree, to me it seemed as if the cop in question was doing everything short of physically pushing the cyclist to try and start something. I also think that it was uncalled for, for the cop to touch the cyclist's bicycle. If his vision is that poor that he had to pick up the bike to read the decals then maybe he needs to change jobs.

Agreed, here we have a case of a cop being a "bully with a badge" and a prosecuting attorney who is also acting as a bully, and lastly a judge who sides with two bullies. All three need to be removed from public service.

Exactly, if they do not know the laws that they are supposed to be enforcing then how can they do their job?!?!

And sadly, this cop wasn't just wrong, but an arse. And then the prosecuting attorney and judge compound things by using intimidation to prevent the accused from putting on the best defense that they could. Again, all three need to be removed from their jobs.

dksix

The cop was wrong, obviously but do you expect cops to also have law degrees? Mistakes are made, which is why the process allows for judges and appeals court. The cop was clearly wrong, clearly had a bad attitude and the cyclist standing there biting his tongue was right start to finish. I simply stated the system worked, eventually, like it's suppose to.

noglider 

I agree, @dksix. If we think we can have a police force that is right 100% of the time, then we wouldn't need courts.

FeParamount

bakes1 since I was the person that posted this in A&S could you please explain how this is not a cycling issue? Should I have posted it elsewhere? I'm trying to be constructive so don't take it the wrong way.

So lets agree bad police work in a corrupt system, but this incident would seem to have pointed out issues (ie lack of knowledge) that should be addressed (ie better education of all parties involved) so that this is not repeated in some other form or way.

FeParamount

That does make a nice slogan but this is about the cop being wrong AND disrespectful, the PA was wrong and the judge was wrong on a simple traffic law - how are we to expect them to get the big complicated stuff right if that can't figure out simple traffic law?

I would be behind the cop almost 100% if he had treated the guy with respect and just handed him a ticket.

noglider 

@FeParamount, I fully agree that the cop was insufficiently informed and he was rude. Neither of these is excusable. He deserves reprimandation and education.

My point is not that the existence of judges excuses the cop. Yes, ideally if a cop is misinformed, either he will listen and then refrain from writing a bogus ticket or he will write the ticket in a respectful way. He really should have been respectful in this case, since the cyclist was not disrespectful at all. My point is that we can't expect cops to be right all the time. Maybe you didn't make that claim, but others here have expressed frustration over the fact that cops are not right all the time. Their expectations are unrealistic.

bakes1

Well said and I am not taking it the wrong way
As I referenced in another post after I stated that; my point is that the issue at hand really boils down to nothing more then a person doing their job very poorly. That police officer could just as easily have been incorrectly stopping a car or pedestrian.
One cop using poor judgement against a cyclist does not mean that all cops are biased or ignorant.
Yet numerous posters in this thread used that video as the basis for saying just that.
Who knows exactly what happened prior to the video btw? How do we know the cop didn't already warn them? I personally doubt it but it has to be factored in.

dksix

It's not that I don't agree with you in principle, I do but in the real world this is the way it is. Honestly, when the cyclist started digging in his pockets and saddle bag it could have went bad quick. The cop was a dick, the judge was apparently an idiot, the prosecutor sounds like a bully, the cyclist was the picture of self restraint and in the end our justice system worked as it should, the cyclist prevailed. With corruption, beatings, shootings and abuse of authority being seemingly so common now the good guys getting a win is good to see.

bakes1

What about the two recent posts where cyclists were pulled over and were immediately belligerent for no known reason other then they were asked for i.d.?
Those threads didn't have an a-hole cop to be the bad guy so they instead turned into ridiculous rants by cyclists who had no clue about the 4th amendment.
Whatever; but using your logic do we now question all bicyclists and assume they are the same?
Let's be honest here.
You started this thread and it devolved into bashing the people personally involved and the whole system

alathIN

There are a couple of those comments that are, indeed, very globalized about all police. Arguably the worst offender is the last, which I didn't see until after I'd posted. I do not endorse these.
A couple of these are simply statements of status quo - that police training and driver ed are probably not sufficient in teaching about bicycle traffic law. The point about older drivers is likely germane, as well, because in many states there is no requirement for a renewing driver to re-test on traffic laws.

I'm not anti-cop. In most cases I think they're professionals trying to do a hard job and usually doing it well. My lifetime best friend is a cop, FWIW.
I do think that police by the nature of their job should be held to a higher standard of conduct than most other professions. If the gas station attendant or the guy cutting your hair is an abusive jerk, you can get up and leave and take your business elsewhere. You don't have to just silently endure whatever they dish out, hoping not to get beaten or shot, and hope you will be able to sort it all out in court later. Those who enforce the law have to be scrupulously lawful.

My guess is that in most departments, the overwhelming majority are scrupulously lawful in their own behavior. Unfortunately it is a longstanding aspect of police culture to conceal, minimize, or cover up misconduct on the part of other officers, which itself is not scrupulously lawful. Even if there are only 0.5% of cops who abuse their authority, and another 5% who tolerate that, that is enough to have a tremendous adverse effect on the lives of innocent citizens and undermine the respect between police and community which is necessary for them to do their jobs.

If you really respect police and the work they do, you should abhor those who abuse their power all the more.

FeParamount

OK NG, thanks for the clarification... sometimes I'm kinda dense.

FeParamount

I posted what I thought would/could be useful information on both sides of the discussion. My intend was not to bash. Some people chose to go that route and to be honest I'm OK with that. The guy was tool. We wouldn't be having this discussion had he been less tool like.

Somehow I don't think conflating this issue/thread with other threads is very helpful either, but I guess you have just as much right to derail this thread as the bashers.

So lets just ignore the fact that hardly anyone knows therules/laws/codes of the road and just pretend that the status quo is hunky dory.

Hell have you been through 4 way stop recently.

bakes1

Hardly anyone? Now you are showing your true nature
Let's ignore the FACT that the overwhelming majority of cyclists do not follow the rules/laws/codes of the road every time they ride by running stop signs, rolling through red lights and riding on sidewalks.
Considering that nobody is disputing the cop was wrong in this case not really sure where you are now going with the whole lack of awareness thing.
At least I can feel warm and fuzzy that you have never once broken a rule/law/code while riding since you are so knowledgeable and vehement about it...
Never ever once...
But I am sure you are quite ok with that. A true hypocrite who breaks the rules but is cool with it because at least he knows which rules he is breaking

Digital_Cowboy

No, not law degrees, but slightly more than a basic understanding of the laws that they're supposed to be enforcing. As well as not allowing their personal bias interfere with their doing their jobs.

And I think that we all can agree that it does appear as if this cop was also trying to goad the cyclist into either doing or saying something so that the cop could have justified using violence to "subdue" him. And what about the prosecutor for using intimidation as a means to strengthen his very weak case?

He should at the very least be disciplined if not disbarred outright.

I'm not saying that they should be right 100% of the time but they should be right north of 75% of the time.

Exactly, if I'm not mistaken shouldn't the prosecutors actions be construed as witness intimidation, witness tampering, and blackmail? I mean how else is one to take "testify, and you'll also be charged?" If not as a means of getting rid of witnesses that can only hurt you. And if the prosecutor is/was willing to use such tactics on a "simple" traffic violation when else has this prosecutor done so?

Digital_Cowboy

Yes he was, and I think as others here have said that he was also trying to provoke the cyclist so that he (the cop) could justify using force to subdue him. And did he (the cop) really need to touch and/or move the bicycle in order to identify it?

Sadly I don't think he'd take well to being educated by his own mother.

I loved the part in video where the cyclist had asked to see the video and the cop tried to "shine" him on saying that we don't provide that, and that he'd have to file a freedom of information claim. Considering that the tape is clearly germane to the cyclists defense isn't the state required to turn over a copy of it to him?

Sadly, you're right about that, but I think that he did so only after being asked for ID and at least to the cops credit he just asked for ID and NOT a driver's license. Uh, ya think, sadly as with others here I think that he was trying to provoke some sort of reaction from the cyclist. Other than the way that the cyclist responded.

I wonder if the witnesses were able to testify at the appeals?

One should also credit the cyclist with not throwing his friends under the bus as it were. Of course given that the other three were presumably with him the entire ride they should have been more than willing to "risk" being charged as well so as to testify as to what had really happened. And who knows maybe IF they'd all stood up to that prosecutor it wouldn't have needed to be appealed.

dksix

I don't know that there was any bias here, maybe he's like that with everyone.

I don't agree, he had a reasonable opportunity to become much more aggressive when the cyclist started digging into his pockets, that's something you just don't do when you're interacting with cops.

In an earlier post I said he should have charges brought against him. I'm not sure the exact charges it is when a criminal discourages a witness from testifying with threats to others but I'm sure it's illegal.

02Giant 

That is such a stretch it is laughable. The cop was confrontational as soon as he stepped from the car because he was pissed at the cyclist for his own ignorance of the law and what he perceived as his authority being challenged. The cyclist didn't reach for ID until asked for, rather rudely. The cyclist is standing there in a skin tight kit, hiding what a weapon?
People shouldn't have to worry about being beaten or shot for complying with an officers commands.

dksix

The cyclist was digging in his jersey pockets and then in his saddle bag while the cop was out of frame. I've stuck my hands in my pockets during a traffic stop and learned quickly to not do that, try it sometime and see how laughable it can get.