Video of Cop Ticketing Cyclist
02-09-16, 08:30 PM
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The cop was a dick immediately upon exiting the car, the cyclist did not dig for anything until he was instructed to do so.
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nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
nine mile skid on a ten mile ride
02-09-16, 08:34 PM
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Just as an aside, it's perfectly legal to ride a bicycle on a sidewalk in MI, some cities may have laws against it however. The state guidelines are:
(1) "An individual operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian."
(2) "An individual shall not operate a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk if that operation is prohibited by an official traffic control device.
(3) "An individual lawfully operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk has all of the rights and responsibilities applicable to a pedestrian using that sidewalk or crosswalk."
02-09-16, 08:39 PM
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Thanks cowboy.
02-09-16, 09:09 PM
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I ride with two local officers who are great cyclists and they constantly complain about motorist who do not know or follow the rules of the road regarding bicycles
02-09-16, 11:23 PM
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There is a nurture/nature riddle around cops. Some say that people who were bullies in school grow up to be cops. Also, some victims of bullies become cops. Both types of people want authority.
Then the job can make a person into a bully. I'm sure cops have to face belligerent people often who claim they haven't violated any laws when they have. I imagine this can make it hard even for a reasonable cop to listen to reasonable arguments because he gets lip so much of the time. This is why I try not to argue with them, at least not too much. I make a gesture to show that I am listening to their point of view before offering my own.
A judge is so named because he is supposed to have judgment and because his job is to decide. A cop is not a judge. This is actually a good thing. The cop works on his training, and his training is guaranteed to be incomplete. Cops are bound to make bad calls. This is why you sometimes have to finish the deal with a judge. We could go on all day about how it shouldn't be that way, but do you want the guy on the street to have the last say? I don't. Better training of cops is, of course, ideal, but it will never be perfect. This video and story illustrate all of this.
Then the job can make a person into a bully. I'm sure cops have to face belligerent people often who claim they haven't violated any laws when they have. I imagine this can make it hard even for a reasonable cop to listen to reasonable arguments because he gets lip so much of the time. This is why I try not to argue with them, at least not too much. I make a gesture to show that I am listening to their point of view before offering my own.
A judge is so named because he is supposed to have judgment and because his job is to decide. A cop is not a judge. This is actually a good thing. The cop works on his training, and his training is guaranteed to be incomplete. Cops are bound to make bad calls. This is why you sometimes have to finish the deal with a judge. We could go on all day about how it shouldn't be that way, but do you want the guy on the street to have the last say? I don't. Better training of cops is, of course, ideal, but it will never be perfect. This video and story illustrate all of this.
Too much, too little. Too soon, too late. Too hard, too soft. Some think they're above the law, calling them out on their transgressions is bullying, but in their time of need they will expect you to lay your life on the line for them.
From what I saw, most folks go into law enforcement with the thought its a job that matters where one can make a difference, only to become disillusioned. Its not the miscreants who are the issue, they're expected to be no good, its the supposedly "good" people who are determined to sow disharmony, and discontent for their own gain or vanity.
02-09-16, 11:40 PM
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Wow, I'm glad this finally came out right.
I've often thought about the central question here -- LEO knowledge of the law. No, they can't be expected to "know all the minutae" of the law...which would be parsing the phrasing, precedents like "State of MI V. Cartman", or whatever. But we the people CAN expect them to know who can and can't sue the road, and how. How tough is it to know that bike riders have the same right to the road, can ride 2x, and DON'T need to ride on the shoulder.
The police academy isn't law school, but they DO get taught the law, or at least enough to get them started -- and they have the resources to keep up with it, and to get more familiar with it. They don't need, when their jurisdiction is Ann Arbor, to know the law in Traverse City, just where they ARE. Hell, 15 minutes a day would cover that. Yes, they can get burnt quick, dealing with EVERYBODY who thinks they have a justification for every stupid and illegal thing they do.
But why LOOK for trouble?
I've often thought about the central question here -- LEO knowledge of the law. No, they can't be expected to "know all the minutae" of the law...which would be parsing the phrasing, precedents like "State of MI V. Cartman", or whatever. But we the people CAN expect them to know who can and can't sue the road, and how. How tough is it to know that bike riders have the same right to the road, can ride 2x, and DON'T need to ride on the shoulder.
The police academy isn't law school, but they DO get taught the law, or at least enough to get them started -- and they have the resources to keep up with it, and to get more familiar with it. They don't need, when their jurisdiction is Ann Arbor, to know the law in Traverse City, just where they ARE. Hell, 15 minutes a day would cover that. Yes, they can get burnt quick, dealing with EVERYBODY who thinks they have a justification for every stupid and illegal thing they do.
But why LOOK for trouble?
02-09-16, 11:59 PM
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In a perfect world, EVERY person with a Michigan driver's license should know everything on this page:
Michigan Bicycle Law
I don't think it's too much to ask that every MI State Trooper knows it.
Michigan Bicycle Law
I don't think it's too much to ask that every MI State Trooper knows it.
02-10-16, 08:45 AM
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In a perfect world, EVERY person with a Michigan driver's license should know everything on this page:
Michigan Bicycle Law
I don't think it's too much to ask that every MI State Trooper knows it.
Michigan Bicycle Law
I don't think it's too much to ask that every MI State Trooper knows it.
Here are some of the laws listed in the CA handbook, along with pictures and diagrams...
In CA, only some of the information regarding cyclists in the drivers handbook... and some of it is rather skewed... https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/de..._slow_veh#bike
Bicyclists are entitled to share the road with motor vehicles. Many people choose to travel by bicycle because it can alleviate traffic and reduce air pollution. Bicyclists are also required to obey traffic laws just like motorists. Bicyclist responsibilities include:
Obeying all traffic signs and traffic signal lights.
Riding in the same direction as traffic.
Signaling when changing lanes or turning.
Yielding to pedestrians.
Wearing a helmet (if under 18 years old).
Allowing faster traffic to pass when safe.
Wearing the appropriate, reflective attire when it is dark.
Bicyclists are entitled to share the road with motor vehicles. Many people choose to travel by bicycle because it can alleviate traffic and reduce air pollution. Bicyclists are also required to obey traffic laws just like motorists. Bicyclist responsibilities include:
Obeying all traffic signs and traffic signal lights.
Riding in the same direction as traffic.
Signaling when changing lanes or turning.
Yielding to pedestrians.
Wearing a helmet (if under 18 years old).
Allowing faster traffic to pass when safe.
Wearing the appropriate, reflective attire when it is dark.
And I know of no law in CA that requires cyclists to wear reflective clothing after dark... the bike has to have reflectors, but not the rider.
But not every state publishes cycling law in the drivers handbook. Washington state covers it in text, devoting about 2 pages to cyclists, here are some of the rules:
•Bicyclists operating on a roadway at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic must ride as near to the right of the roadway as is safely possible. Riders may move left before and during turns, or when passing another bicycle or vehicle. Riders on a one-way road, other than a freeway, may ride as near to the left side of the road as is safe.
•Bicyclists have the choice to ride on the roadway, on the shoulder of a road, in a bicycle lane, or on a sidewalk. Bicyclists must yield to pedestrians on sidewalks or in crosswalks. Use an audible signal to warn pedestrians before passing.
•Bicyclists may ride in groups on bicycle paths and lanes. On public roads they may ride either single file or in pairs.
•Bicyclists have the choice to ride on the roadway, on the shoulder of a road, in a bicycle lane, or on a sidewalk. Bicyclists must yield to pedestrians on sidewalks or in crosswalks. Use an audible signal to warn pedestrians before passing.
•Bicyclists may ride in groups on bicycle paths and lanes. On public roads they may ride either single file or in pairs.
02-10-16, 09:20 AM
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There are a couple of those comments that are, indeed, very globalized about all police. Arguably the worst offender is the last, which I didn't see until after I'd posted. I do not endorse these.
A couple of these are simply statements of status quo - that police training and driver ed are probably not sufficient in teaching about bicycle traffic law. The point about older drivers is likely germane, as well, because in many states there is no requirement for a renewing driver to re-test on traffic laws.
I'm not anti-cop. In most cases I think they're professionals trying to do a hard job and usually doing it well. My lifetime best friend is a cop, FWIW.
I do think that police by the nature of their job should be held to a higher standard of conduct than most other professions. If the gas station attendant or the guy cutting your hair is an abusive jerk, you can get up and leave and take your business elsewhere. You don't have to just silently endure whatever they dish out, hoping not to get beaten or shot, and hope you will be able to sort it all out in court later. Those who enforce the law have to be scrupulously lawful.
My guess is that in most departments, the overwhelming majority are scrupulously lawful in their own behavior. Unfortunately it is a longstanding aspect of police culture to conceal, minimize, or cover up misconduct on the part of other officers, which itself is not scrupulously lawful. Even if there are only 0.5% of cops who abuse their authority, and another 5% who tolerate that, that is enough to have a tremendous adverse effect on the lives of innocent citizens and undermine the respect between police and community which is necessary for them to do their jobs.
If you really respect police and the work they do, you should abhor those who abuse their power all the more.
A couple of these are simply statements of status quo - that police training and driver ed are probably not sufficient in teaching about bicycle traffic law. The point about older drivers is likely germane, as well, because in many states there is no requirement for a renewing driver to re-test on traffic laws.
I'm not anti-cop. In most cases I think they're professionals trying to do a hard job and usually doing it well. My lifetime best friend is a cop, FWIW.
I do think that police by the nature of their job should be held to a higher standard of conduct than most other professions. If the gas station attendant or the guy cutting your hair is an abusive jerk, you can get up and leave and take your business elsewhere. You don't have to just silently endure whatever they dish out, hoping not to get beaten or shot, and hope you will be able to sort it all out in court later. Those who enforce the law have to be scrupulously lawful.
My guess is that in most departments, the overwhelming majority are scrupulously lawful in their own behavior. Unfortunately it is a longstanding aspect of police culture to conceal, minimize, or cover up misconduct on the part of other officers, which itself is not scrupulously lawful. Even if there are only 0.5% of cops who abuse their authority, and another 5% who tolerate that, that is enough to have a tremendous adverse effect on the lives of innocent citizens and undermine the respect between police and community which is necessary for them to do their jobs.
If you really respect police and the work they do, you should abhor those who abuse their power all the more.
02-10-16, 09:23 AM
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Hardly anyone? Now you are showing your true nature 
Let's ignore the FACT that the overwhelming majority of cyclists do not follow the rules/laws/codes of the road every time they ride by running stop signs, rolling through red lights and riding on sidewalks.
Considering that nobody is disputing the cop was wrong in this case not really sure where you are now going with the whole lack of awareness thing.
At least I can feel warm and fuzzy that you have never once broken a rule/law/code while riding since you are so knowledgeable and vehement about it...
Never ever once...
But I am sure you are quite ok with that. A true hypocrite who breaks the rules but is cool with it because at least he knows which rules he is breaking
Let's ignore the FACT that the overwhelming majority of cyclists do not follow the rules/laws/codes of the road every time they ride by running stop signs, rolling through red lights and riding on sidewalks.
Considering that nobody is disputing the cop was wrong in this case not really sure where you are now going with the whole lack of awareness thing.
At least I can feel warm and fuzzy that you have never once broken a rule/law/code while riding since you are so knowledgeable and vehement about it...
Never ever once...
But I am sure you are quite ok with that. A true hypocrite who breaks the rules but is cool with it because at least he knows which rules he is breaking
You are showing your ignorance by making the apparent blanket statement that it is always illegal to operate one's bicycle on the sidewalk. Here in Florida per F.S. 316.2065 it IS legal for one to operate their bicycle on the sidewalk.
02-10-16, 09:26 AM
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In the Coast Guard our primary mission was SAR with LE being secondary. We had to constantly train for a wide variety of tasks such as emt, fire fighting, recovery, rescue, and LE, while also doing the day to day administrative tasks of maintaining and running the station....and responding to calls. Its really hard to know everything about everything.
02-10-16, 09:35 AM
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I'll agree its a reasonable sentiment in theory, but easier to say than do.
In the Coast Guard our primary mission was SAR with LE being secondary. We had to constantly train for a wide variety of tasks such as emt, fire fighting, recovery, rescue, and LE, while also doing the day to day administrative tasks of maintaining and running the station....and responding to calls. Its really hard to know everything about everything.
In the Coast Guard our primary mission was SAR with LE being secondary. We had to constantly train for a wide variety of tasks such as emt, fire fighting, recovery, rescue, and LE, while also doing the day to day administrative tasks of maintaining and running the station....and responding to calls. Its really hard to know everything about everything.
As a boater I have to know the COLREGS... seems everyone serving in the CG at sea should know at least that... but not all of Admiralty Law.
02-10-16, 09:39 AM
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- Witness tampering
- Witness intimidation
- and blackmail
That is such a stretch it is laughable. The cop was confrontational as soon as he stepped from the car because he was pissed at the cyclist for his own ignorance of the law and what he perceived as his authority being challenged. The cyclist didn't reach for ID until asked for, rather rudely. The cyclist is standing there in a skin tight kit, hiding what a weapon?
People shouldn't have to worry about being beaten or shot for complying with an officers commands.
People shouldn't have to worry about being beaten or shot for complying with an officers commands.
Exactly, he appeared to have the attitude of "I'm not only a cop, but I'm a state trooper and you WILL do as I say." Sadly we saw that sort of attitude in the Trotwood v Selz case. Wherein a cop stopped Selz because in her opinion what he was doing was unsafe and therefore in her "mother knows best" opinion it also just HAD to be illegal.
Again, I agree, it wasn't until the cop had asked for ID that the cyclist started to "dig" into his pockets. Yeah, except for maybe a knife one is NOT really going to be able to "hide" much in the way of weapons when wearing skintight spandex.
I agree 100%, when asked to do something and then one is making every reasonable attempt to comply one should NOT have to worry about getting a "beat down" because they were complying with a request from a LEO.
02-10-16, 09:41 AM
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Again, the cyclist only did so AFTER he was "ordered" to produce his ID. Just how is he supposed to do so if he doesn't start "digging" in his jersey pockets or saddle bag?!?!
02-10-16, 09:47 AM
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An overwhelming majority of motor vehicle operators and pedestrians fail to follow laws also, I dunno why people get so bent outta shape when a cyclist doesn't.
Just as an aside, it's perfectly legal to ride a bicycle on a sidewalk in MI, some cities may have laws against it however. The state guidelines are:
(1) "An individual operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian."
(2) "An individual shall not operate a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk if that operation is prohibited by an official traffic control device.
(3) "An individual lawfully operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk has all of the rights and responsibilities applicable to a pedestrian using that sidewalk or crosswalk."
Just as an aside, it's perfectly legal to ride a bicycle on a sidewalk in MI, some cities may have laws against it however. The state guidelines are:
(1) "An individual operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing a pedestrian."
(2) "An individual shall not operate a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk if that operation is prohibited by an official traffic control device.
(3) "An individual lawfully operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk or a pedestrian crosswalk has all of the rights and responsibilities applicable to a pedestrian using that sidewalk or crosswalk."
Again, I agree as here in Florida per F.S. 316.2065 it is legal to operate one's bicycle on the sidewalk. Again there may be local laws that either prohibit or limit it, but on a state level it is legal to do.
02-10-16, 09:53 AM
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You're welcome.
I imagine that you get an earful at times. Question, do you know if when they're out on patrol if they stop cyclists for breaking the law? As I've said in other posts here where I live I've witnessed too many LEOs who even when a cyclist is blatantly breaking the law they act as if they didn't see them.
I imagine that you get an earful at times. Question, do you know if when they're out on patrol if they stop cyclists for breaking the law? As I've said in other posts here where I live I've witnessed too many LEOs who even when a cyclist is blatantly breaking the law they act as if they didn't see them.
02-10-16, 09:57 AM
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It wasn't a blanket statement. Only an inexperienced rider or an idiot rides on the sidewalk
02-10-16, 10:03 AM
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Wow, I'm glad this finally came out right.
I've often thought about the central question here -- LEO knowledge of the law. No, they can't be expected to "know all the minutae" of the law...which would be parsing the phrasing, precedents like "State of MI V. Cartman", or whatever. But we the people CAN expect them to know who can and can't sue the road, and how. How tough is it to know that bike riders have the same right to the road, can ride 2x, and DON'T need to ride on the shoulder.
The police academy isn't law school, but they DO get taught the law, or at least enough to get them started -- and they have the resources to keep up with it, and to get more familiar with it. They don't need, when their jurisdiction is Ann Arbor, to know the law in Traverse City, just where they ARE. Hell, 15 minutes a day would cover that. Yes, they can get burnt quick, dealing with EVERYBODY who thinks they have a justification for every stupid and illegal thing they do.
But why LOOK for trouble?
I've often thought about the central question here -- LEO knowledge of the law. No, they can't be expected to "know all the minutae" of the law...which would be parsing the phrasing, precedents like "State of MI V. Cartman", or whatever. But we the people CAN expect them to know who can and can't sue the road, and how. How tough is it to know that bike riders have the same right to the road, can ride 2x, and DON'T need to ride on the shoulder.
The police academy isn't law school, but they DO get taught the law, or at least enough to get them started -- and they have the resources to keep up with it, and to get more familiar with it. They don't need, when their jurisdiction is Ann Arbor, to know the law in Traverse City, just where they ARE. Hell, 15 minutes a day would cover that. Yes, they can get burnt quick, dealing with EVERYBODY who thinks they have a justification for every stupid and illegal thing they do.
But why LOOK for trouble?
a "local yokel" can be excused from having a poorer understanding of the law than a "county mountie" but a statie should have a better knowledge of the law then a "local yokel" or a "county mountie." And none of them should be allowed to enforce laws that they themselves are making up on the side of the road, just because in their "opinion" something is "unsafe" and therefore it "must" also be "illegal."
As you said all it would take is about 15 - 20 minutes a day.
In a perfect world, EVERY person with a Michigan driver's license should know everything on this page:
Michigan Bicycle Law
I don't think it's too much to ask that every MI State Trooper knows it.
Michigan Bicycle Law
I don't think it's too much to ask that every MI State Trooper knows it.
I tend to agree. (but apparently that is just too much to expect, according to some posters). Of course if such information is NOT in the drivers handbook, then I can see why neither motorist and perhaps LEOs would not be aware of said laws.
Here are some of the laws listed in the CA handbook, along with pictures and diagrams...
Although one may argue that these are not worded like the laws, and indeed can be subject to misinterpretation... such as the statement: "Allowing faster traffic to pass when safe." Seems straight forward enough, but no doubt some may read that as "Allowing faster traffic to pass," while ignoring the "when safe" caveat.
And I know of no law in CA that requires cyclists to wear reflective clothing after dark... the bike has to have reflectors, but not the rider.
But not every state publishes cycling law in the drivers handbook. Washington state covers it in text, devoting about 2 pages to cyclists, here are some of the rules:
Again if the driving public is expected to know the above, it seems to me so should LEOs and judges.
Here are some of the laws listed in the CA handbook, along with pictures and diagrams...
Although one may argue that these are not worded like the laws, and indeed can be subject to misinterpretation... such as the statement: "Allowing faster traffic to pass when safe." Seems straight forward enough, but no doubt some may read that as "Allowing faster traffic to pass," while ignoring the "when safe" caveat.
And I know of no law in CA that requires cyclists to wear reflective clothing after dark... the bike has to have reflectors, but not the rider.
But not every state publishes cycling law in the drivers handbook. Washington state covers it in text, devoting about 2 pages to cyclists, here are some of the rules:
Again if the driving public is expected to know the above, it seems to me so should LEOs and judges.
02-10-16, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bakes1
Let's ignore the FACT that the overwhelming majority of cyclists do not follow the rules/laws/codes of the road every time they ride by running stop signs, rolling through red lights and riding on sidewalks.
02-10-16, 10:29 AM
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By the end of the first minute of the video the cop had the ID, at about 3:30 in the video the cyclist is digging in his jersey pocket again (I think he was putting his wallet up) but it was after the ID had been handed over and the cop was out of the frame. Had the cop being looking for a reason, that was something he could have jump on. I'm surprised he didn't order the other riders to move along.
02-10-16, 10:51 AM
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And fwiw, having the responsibility to clean up the mess after an incident colors ones perspective as to what's really important.
02-10-16, 11:25 AM
#97
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Thanks for posting this FeParamount, as it is a cycling issue. The person who was wrongfully cited here handled things very well. It’s a good reminder of how a cop can be overly aggressive, (and wrong) and how a citizen should best handle the situation. I hope to do as well should I ever end up in this spot. Actually, I'm pretty sure I would.
02-10-16, 11:37 AM
#98
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02-10-16, 12:26 PM
#99
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By the end of the first minute of the video the cop had the ID, at about 3:30 in the video the cyclist is digging in his jersey pocket again (I think he was putting his wallet up) but it was after the ID had been handed over and the cop was out of the frame. Had the cop being looking for a reason, that was something he could have jump on. I'm surprised he didn't order the other riders to move along.
What myself and others have said, drive our vehicle in accordance with all local laws regardless of whether or not they should apply to cyclists or not. So as to help minimize the friction between the motoring and the cycling public. Now granted sadly there will always see cyclists as an obstacle that do not belong on "their" roads. And sadly those motorists we can't do much about.
02-10-16, 12:33 PM
#100
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I'm not saying it would have been justified, nothing about the cops actions was justified. I just disagree with you about the cop looking for something to give him reason to escalate the hostility. I suspect the cop had no respect what's so ever for the cyclist and the possibility the cyclist could in any way be a threat to the cop was never a concern. In my opinion the cop was a dick who thought the cyclist wasn't showing him his due respect and was making it a point to put him in his place.