5 bicyclists dead outside Kalamazoo
06-09-16, 02:36 PM
#101
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This is one of those situations where I dislike that the law differentiates based on outcome; he did the same thing to all nine riders, the only difference is that four survived. Why should he face significantly lesser charges for the same act in those cases?
After all, the logical extension of a lesser charge for a lesser outcome of the same act is to take it all the way to "no harm no foul," so any failed crime attempt would carry no penalty at all.
After all, the logical extension of a lesser charge for a lesser outcome of the same act is to take it all the way to "no harm no foul," so any failed crime attempt would carry no penalty at all.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...ll-end-up.html
Serious injuries, but no deaths.
Should she also be charged with murder? Attempted murder? Apparently she has been free on a $2000 bond.
For the Kalamazoo accident, I don't see a big deal with the difference between 5 murder charges and 9. Serving 5 consecutive 10 year sentences would be enough to put him behind bars for life. That is quite a bit for one bad decision.
06-09-16, 02:46 PM
#102
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I figure they must have gotten something on him either from the blood work and/or his own statements. My hunch is he is/was suicidal and that's why he is in the hospital now unable to be arraigned on the charges. The DA wouldn't give out any details of their case against him but says more will come out when the arraignment finally happens.
Put a criminal on suicide watch.
So they can be punished... and some cases put to death at huge expense.
-------
I haven't read notes of hospitalization of Pickett. Source?
06-09-16, 02:55 PM
#103
Walmart bike rider
This reminds me a lot of the Johnston County accident.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...ll-end-up.html
Serious injuries, but no deaths.
Should she also be charged with murder? Attempted murder? Apparently she has been free on a $2000 bond.
https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-s...ll-end-up.html
Serious injuries, but no deaths.
Should she also be charged with murder? Attempted murder? Apparently she has been free on a $2000 bond.
06-09-16, 03:13 PM
#105
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Yes, the Michigan legislature abolished the death penalty in 1846 and was the first English-speaking government in the world to do so.
But even states that do have the death penalty generally reserve it for 1st degree murder (i.e. premeditated) with special aggravating circumstances. While this person's actions were extremely reckless and atrocious, I doubt that he set out that day with the deliberate intent to kill anyone.
But even states that do have the death penalty generally reserve it for 1st degree murder (i.e. premeditated) with special aggravating circumstances. While this person's actions were extremely reckless and atrocious, I doubt that he set out that day with the deliberate intent to kill anyone.
06-09-16, 04:16 PM
#106
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Maybe but we don't have the death penalty. This POS is in for a rude awakening in the general population.
06-09-16, 05:03 PM
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Pickup trucks used to be used for utilitarian purposes. They did not handle well, stop well, nor were they very safe as they did not have shoulder belts or air-bags and they didn't have to! This made them incredibly cheap to buy compared to other road vehicles. In 2016 trucks have undergone a lot of refinement, and the biggest, most luxurious ones top 6,000lbs. This makes them exempt from most DOT fees and regulations, and makes them incredibly cheap to buy compared to other road vehicles. That should change.
I don't know but I think it would be awfully hard to kill 5 cyclists and injure 4 more with a Miyata. Even a Malibu would have trouble doing that much damage in one incident of drunk driving. I've seen F150's close up and they are hardly the biggest trucks going. My old landlord had a 350 and that is what I thought the Pickett might have been driving. Whatever. You should need a CDL if you are going to drive one and I imagine if that was the case there would be less leeway for slick lawyers to maneuver this down to something Pickett could survive. This is less about Pickett and his spectacular feat of mayhem that has risen above the background noise of daily carnage on our roads by drivers that are careless, distracted, incompetent and sometimes all of the above.
For some time to come this incident and the ensuing legal proceedings are going to make the wider public aware of what is a daily reality for vehicular cyclists. Sadly it will cause some to give up road cycling, out of their own or their spouses fears that this could also happen to them. For those of us who will have to keep riding for whatever reason it should make us angry enough to start advocating for tougher sanctions on careless drivers. The ride of silence each time a cyclist in a locality is taken is a good idea.
I don't know but I think it would be awfully hard to kill 5 cyclists and injure 4 more with a Miyata. Even a Malibu would have trouble doing that much damage in one incident of drunk driving. I've seen F150's close up and they are hardly the biggest trucks going. My old landlord had a 350 and that is what I thought the Pickett might have been driving. Whatever. You should need a CDL if you are going to drive one and I imagine if that was the case there would be less leeway for slick lawyers to maneuver this down to something Pickett could survive. This is less about Pickett and his spectacular feat of mayhem that has risen above the background noise of daily carnage on our roads by drivers that are careless, distracted, incompetent and sometimes all of the above.
For some time to come this incident and the ensuing legal proceedings are going to make the wider public aware of what is a daily reality for vehicular cyclists. Sadly it will cause some to give up road cycling, out of their own or their spouses fears that this could also happen to them. For those of us who will have to keep riding for whatever reason it should make us angry enough to start advocating for tougher sanctions on careless drivers. The ride of silence each time a cyclist in a locality is taken is a good idea.
06-09-16, 06:23 PM
#108
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just an "accident" 
06-09-16, 07:08 PM
#109
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I read in another forum that the only reason the other 4 cyclists were not killed is pure luck. They we're an inseparable part of the same incident. If Pickett was charged with murder in the death of the 5 cyclists, the proper charge for the other 4 must be attempted murder.
06-09-16, 07:11 PM
#110
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Pickup trucks used to be used for utilitarian purposes. They did not handle well, stop well, nor were they very safe as they did not have shoulder belts or air-bags and they didn't have to! This made them incredibly cheap to buy compared to other road vehicles. In 2016 trucks have undergone a lot of refinement, and the biggest, most luxurious ones top 6,000lbs. This makes them exempt from most DOT fees and regulations, and makes them incredibly cheap to buy compared to other road vehicles. That should change.
I don't know but I think it would be awfully hard to kill 5 cyclists and injure 4 more with a Miyata. Even a Malibu would have trouble doing that much damage in one incident of drunk driving. I've seen F150's close up and they are hardly the biggest trucks going. My old landlord had a 350 and that is what I thought the Pickett might have been driving. Whatever. You should need a CDL if you are going to drive one and I imagine if that was the case there would be less leeway for slick lawyers to maneuver this down to something Pickett could survive. This is less about Pickett and his spectacular feat of mayhem that has risen above the background noise of daily carnage on our roads by drivers that are careless, distracted, incompetent and sometimes all of the above.
For some time to come this incident and the ensuing legal proceedings are going to make the wider public aware of what is a daily reality for vehicular cyclists. Sadly it will cause some to give up road cycling, out of their own or their spouses fears that this could also happen to them. For those of us who will have to keep riding for whatever reason it should make us angry enough to start advocating for tougher sanctions on careless drivers. The ride of silence each time a cyclist in a locality is taken is a good idea.
I don't know but I think it would be awfully hard to kill 5 cyclists and injure 4 more with a Miyata. Even a Malibu would have trouble doing that much damage in one incident of drunk driving. I've seen F150's close up and they are hardly the biggest trucks going. My old landlord had a 350 and that is what I thought the Pickett might have been driving. Whatever. You should need a CDL if you are going to drive one and I imagine if that was the case there would be less leeway for slick lawyers to maneuver this down to something Pickett could survive. This is less about Pickett and his spectacular feat of mayhem that has risen above the background noise of daily carnage on our roads by drivers that are careless, distracted, incompetent and sometimes all of the above.
For some time to come this incident and the ensuing legal proceedings are going to make the wider public aware of what is a daily reality for vehicular cyclists. Sadly it will cause some to give up road cycling, out of their own or their spouses fears that this could also happen to them. For those of us who will have to keep riding for whatever reason it should make us angry enough to start advocating for tougher sanctions on careless drivers. The ride of silence each time a cyclist in a locality is taken is a good idea.
06-09-16, 07:50 PM
#111
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While I agree with most of your post... I think you need to revisit that last line, as many people buy cars/trucks/whatever to suit their personality. People relate to a certain image they feel their vehicle of choice projects. A motor vehicle is the second most expensive purchase one makes in a lifetime, and people want a vehicle that who they are.
Now that said, there are folks out there that do buy for utility... thus buy the beat up pickup or the older sedan, as they are simply looking for transportation... just like cyclists that roll with 80-90s bikes as utility transportation.
A visit to post 78 shows someone trying to project a certain image... I'll leave it up to you to translate the image.
Now that said, there are folks out there that do buy for utility... thus buy the beat up pickup or the older sedan, as they are simply looking for transportation... just like cyclists that roll with 80-90s bikes as utility transportation.
A visit to post 78 shows someone trying to project a certain image... I'll leave it up to you to translate the image.
Last edited by Feldman; 06-09-16 at 07:52 PM. Reason: Wanted to complete a thought
06-09-16, 08:09 PM
#112
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My reply to a point asked in the now-closed thread: Skip Montanaro asked about Rides of Silence. Ann Arbor, the Washtenaw County Walking and Biking Coalition, will have one 6/15. I'm sure you all can find pertinent information by Googling Washtenaw County Walking and Biking Coalition.
06-09-16, 08:13 PM
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In any case, generalizations aren't constructive here. Cars don't kill people, their drivers do. While there may be some truth in certain personality types being more likely to own one vehicle over another, ANY car can kill if the driver is inept, uncaring, or irresponsible.
Besides dealing with this as the tragedy it is, it might help if the police investigation revealed contributing factors.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
06-10-16, 06:04 AM
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Want to know the big difference between people bashing pickup drivers and people bashing cyclists? People that bash pickup drivers don't advocate murdering them.
"Only 1 more he'd have scored a strike. Need to replace some of the pins now."
That's the quote a facebook "friend" of mine used to post this story, it is a sentiment I see often.
"Only 1 more he'd have scored a strike. Need to replace some of the pins now."
That's the quote a facebook "friend" of mine used to post this story, it is a sentiment I see often.
06-10-16, 06:37 AM
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I'm glad to see the murder indictments, I hope the prosecutor only chose that route after being sure that he had a good chance of a conviction. Well, I'm sure he did, that's his job. I hope he's right.
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06-10-16, 11:01 AM
#116
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Pickup truck owner & beginning cyclist here... this suspect seems to have been an utterly repugnant character, and I hope he has a long spell of incarceration in his future.
06-10-16, 11:33 AM
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The individual is 73, so hopefully he will never drive again; ideally he'll be in prison the rest of his life.
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06-10-16, 12:09 PM
#118
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I thought the registered owner was 73, but the actual driver was 50?
06-10-16, 12:37 PM
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This has been on the news here daily in Chicago since it happened. I'm really surprised, but glad to see the attention it's bringing to yet another senseless killing.
06-10-16, 01:02 PM
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06-10-16, 01:11 PM
#122
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06-10-16, 01:20 PM
#123
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Chicago is probably just desperate for coverage of murders not of the traditional drug war variety. Don't hold your breath for an editorial about how Biker Lives Matter.
06-10-16, 01:20 PM
#124
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The NTSB is looking into this now... they find it hard to believe 5 deaths and 4 injured in an "accident."
https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-safety...62.html?ref=gs
https://www.yahoo.com/news/us-safety...62.html?ref=gs
An NTSB team arrived in the Kalamazoo area Thursday and will likely spend a week conducting interviews and studying the crash site, bikes and the pickup truck that hit the group, investigator Pete Kotowski said Friday.
"What drew our attention to this were the five fatalities as well as the number of injured," said Kotowski, adding that the agency also is interested in the effects of impaired driving. "The things we look at are the type of road, the lane markings, those things. We haven't reached any conclusions yet."
"What drew our attention to this were the five fatalities as well as the number of injured," said Kotowski, adding that the agency also is interested in the effects of impaired driving. "The things we look at are the type of road, the lane markings, those things. We haven't reached any conclusions yet."
"This wasn't coming around the bend and suddenly there were bicyclists there," said Paul Selden, a bicyclist who knows the road and talked to an NTSB investigator. "This was a straight stretch of road, an uphill stretch."
06-10-16, 01:55 PM
#125
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Many Chicago cyclists, including me, ride in the beautiful rolling hills of Western Michigan.
But then again, your sig line says it all. Wonder what your hero would say about bicycling and cyclists on the road. (No, actually, I don't.)
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Last edited by Chicago Al; 06-10-16 at 03:37 PM.