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Old 05-13-05, 11:59 AM   #1
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Running stop signs.

I almost went over the deep end last night. My wife and I go running through a very nice residential area of Los Angeles, called Hancock Park. Lots of Mansions and big tree lined sidewalks, quiet neighborhood except around rush hour. We were crossing a 4 way stop intersection at a slow walking speed as a car, cyclist, and runner were approaching the intersection from our right. We entered the intersection slowly so that the car would see us and have an opportunity to slow, which it did. The runner slowed too, but the cyclist in a full racer outfit, and on a nice road bike is cursing the runner for being on the street, and passing the car on the right. We assume that he is also going to stop for the stop sign, but instead he curses us too and blows through the sign at speed and almost runs down my wife in the process. He weaved through us close enough for me to reach out and touch him, which I almost did in pushing him over. Since most folks commuting times are pretty regular I'm thinking I might go up to the intersection tonight and have a little chat with this a-hole, or maybe just go up there and push him over. It's one thing to be aggresive on some of the busy arterials, but this is a neighborhood where folks push strollers and go walking with their kids. It's cyclists like this that make motorists think that they don't have to respect bikers, because cyclists don't obey traffic rules so they don't deserve to be treated like equal roadway users.

Okay, rant over, thanks for listening.

-Marcus.
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Old 05-13-05, 12:06 PM   #2
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Amen. Racers = entitled. Somehow they think the world is their personal training ground. I mean, if someone is that serious, they need to have their coach in a car front and back. Mini-Lances. A scourge.
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Old 05-13-05, 12:16 PM   #3
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Amen. Racers = entitled. Somehow they think the world is their personal training ground. I mean, if someone is that serious, they need to have their coach in a car front and back. Mini-Lances. A scourge.
Well I didn't mean to imply that because he was a racer this made it obvious that he was going to be a jerk. I completely disagree with any blanket generalization regading any cyclist because of clothing style and bike choice. I guess because he was all done up I expected a bit more from the guy, I don't know, at least yielding for peds at a stop sign. Hell I ride with quite a few racers who would lay down their bike before they hit a pedestrian, I'm certainly one of them. But a neighborhood is not the place to be testing out your speed skills and pedestrians are not traffic cones. I just hope this guy learns some manners before he hurts someone.

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Old 05-13-05, 12:30 PM   #4
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All those road signs are just suggestions.
Like the ones at the zoo that say "Don't feed the monkeys"
If it wasn't for a few rule breakers those poor little things would never learn to fend for themselves by figuring out how to unwrap a Twinkie.

Enjoy
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Old 05-13-05, 12:46 PM   #5
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Can I ask if there was a sidewalk there? One of my pet peeves is people who run in the street when there is a sidewalk available. Peds, unlike bicycles, do not belong in the roads when there is a sidewalk available. Now when there is no sidewalk, I have no problem with runners on the shoulder. I don't see too many runners in the streets of Philly, but I do see them back at my parents' neighborhood.
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Old 05-13-05, 12:56 PM   #6
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Can I ask if there was a sidewalk there? One of my pet peeves is people who run in the street when there is a sidewalk available. Peds, unlike bicycles, do not belong in the roads when there is a sidewalk available. Now when there is no sidewalk, I have no problem with runners on the shoulder. I don't see too many runners in the streets of Philly, but I do see them back at my parents' neighborhood.
Just an FYI: The reason I've typically heard for runners perferring to run in the streets is that asphalt is enough softer than concrete that it is easier on their knees.
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Old 05-13-05, 01:41 PM   #7
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Just an FYI: The reason I've typically heard for runners perferring to run in the streets is that asphalt is enough softer than concrete that it is easier on their knees.
When I ran track, coach told us to run on asphalt instead of concrete.
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Old 05-13-05, 01:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by jabowker
Just an FYI: The reason I've typically heard for runners perferring to run in the streets is that asphalt is enough softer than concrete that it is easier on their knees.
agreed - there is a huge difference, for me at least. Road surfaces give much more so I can run without hurting my knees too much. Sidewalks kill my knees - can't run there.

Of course, i've solved this dilemma by cycling on the roads, where motorists can yell "Get on the sidewalk".
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Old 05-13-05, 01:45 PM   #9
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Also I run in the street for the exact same reason I cycle on it (of course for running, counter flow):
So I can be seen and see. I have had too many bad cases of people pulling out from driveways into me when running on the sidewalk, or not seeing me from side streets (i.e. too many cars right turn without stopping)

The problem is not people who run on the road, but those who don't jump on the sidewalk when cyclist or car approaches. One has plenty of time to do this so a car or cyclist will never have to slow or swerve.

Al
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Old 05-13-05, 01:56 PM   #10
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I can understand the desire to run in the road, but what does the law say about pedestrians and runners using the road when a sidewalk is available?
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Old 05-13-05, 02:42 PM   #11
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I can understand the desire to run in the road, but what does the law say about pedestrians and runners using the road when a sidewalk is available?
Well I could understand if this was an arterial, but we are talking seriously residential streets, they are wide enough for on street parking, and two lanes of traffic. Yes, there are sidewalks, but there are very few cars parking on these streets, so in my opinion there is no problem with runners using the roadway.

On another note, I don't buy the asphalt hurts less than concrete argument at all. If you are a truck or a plane it might make a difference. But are you sincerely arguing that an average person is compressing the asphalt as they run? But hey, whatever works for some people. The main point is that the cyclist in question had more than enough room to manuever around the car and runner and instead he chose to be an inconsiderate jerk.

-Marcus.
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Old 05-13-05, 02:59 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Treespeed
I don't buy the asphalt hurts less than concrete argument at all.
There is some debate about this and not much in the way of study (some measure hardness, some measure injury rates). But everyone agrees that concrete is harder than asphault. This link says 10x harder, but relative to a soft surface like grass/dirt it is not clear how big the difference is. Keep in mind the forces on ones legs are incredible and frequent from running, so slight increases in hardness can make a big difference.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._86233362/pg_2

Try this: Take hammer and whack a concrete sidewalk and an asphault surface. You will note a big difference in the shock to your arm. Also try whacking with a with end of wood 2x4 (so as not to have such a hard and small surface like a hammer) and note the concrete rebounds more

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Old 05-13-05, 03:09 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Treespeed
Well I could understand if this was an arterial, but we are talking seriously residential streets, they are wide enough for on street parking, and two lanes of traffic. Yes, there are sidewalks, but there are very few cars parking on these streets, so in my opinion there is no problem with runners using the roadway.

On another note, I don't buy the asphalt hurts less than concrete argument at all. If you are a truck or a plane it might make a difference. But are you sincerely arguing that an average person is compressing the asphalt as they run? But hey, whatever works for some people. The main point is that the cyclist in question had more than enough room to manuever around the car and runner and instead he chose to be an inconsiderate jerk.

-Marcus.
I don't know if asphalt is enough softer to help knees if I were to try to run on it or not, but as you point out the issue here is the cyclist. This seems to be a good example of cycling behavior that does the community more harm than good and if caught he should be subject to a considerable repremand.
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Old 05-13-05, 04:46 PM   #14
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In the same situation, if I thought about in time, and by the way you described it there was probably time, I most likely would have clothes-lined the AH on the bike (if he's that stupid he's not a cyclist) and walked off.
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Old 05-13-05, 04:55 PM   #15
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I don't mean to quibble. However, my personal opinion is that the routine crowning of roadways to facilitate stormwater runoff creates an uneven surface. After many years of running, I believe the effect on hips and knees are negative.
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Old 05-13-05, 05:01 PM   #16
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I say let it go. Don't go looking for him, but if you see him, perhaps a civil word would do the trick.

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Old 05-13-05, 05:09 PM   #17
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I would just yell, "STOP SIGN"!
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Old 05-13-05, 06:05 PM   #18
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I would just yell, "STOP SIGN"!
I was a bit taken aback not only by his action, but then his audacity to tell me to "F-Off!"
So all I could yell was, "You are a terrible, terrible cyclist!!" I've been trying to reduce my cursing
in the wake of hopefully becoming a father. Though, the Stop Sign would have been a much better choice.

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Old 05-13-05, 06:32 PM   #19
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Although the urge is strong, don't do anything to him. If you were to push him over, he could press criminal charges against you. Even worse, what if you pushed him over at high speed and that caused a chain reaction such as him swerving into a car which swerved into a pedestrian and injured someone totally innocent! You're needed in the delivery room, not in jail . Don't even yell at him. He's shown he has an attitude. Yelling might provoke a fight, and despite the outcome, everyone would lose.

Take comfort in the thought that with his antics, he'll soon get what he deserves. (though I know it would be nice if you were there to witness it!)
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Old 05-13-05, 09:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jabowker
Just an FYI: The reason I've typically heard for runners perferring to run in the streets is that asphalt is enough softer than concrete that it is easier on their knees.
Maybe someone with an engineering degree can tell us why this is not true. A human shouldn't be heavy enough to cause any deflection in the asphalt. Also, with modern day running shoes, there should be no effect of even concrete on the body.
I think the difference people feel is from not coming down and going up every time a curb is crossed.
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Old 05-13-05, 09:50 PM   #21
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Maybe someone with an engineering degree can tell us why this is not true. A human shouldn't be heavy enough to cause any deflection in the asphalt. Also, with modern day running shoes, there should be no effect of even concrete on the body.
I think the difference people feel is from not coming down and going up every time a curb is crossed.
Actually I do have an engineering degreen (general with mechanical emphasis) and I don't have any doubt that it is true to an extent. The board and hammer examples noted above demonstrate that quite well. However, my experience suggests that there must be some amount of technique involved for runners to be able to handle even asphalt. I have never been a runner per se but when in college I did play soccer and had to run a lot.. I know that I can't run on hard surfaces (certianly not concrete) for very long at all if I don't want considerable pain. I can however run for extended periods on softer surfaces (dirt and grass fields, hardwood gym floors, etc).
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Old 05-13-05, 10:00 PM   #22
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Maybe the composition of the asphalt, with something not as solid binding the gravel together, is the answer.

For the OP, if a guy like that hits your wife, just make sure all the "injuries" look like they came from the accident.
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Old 05-13-05, 11:57 PM   #23
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People who need something easier than concrete to run on either run on a smooth dirt trail or they go run on the local high school track. I've fallen on all kinds of surfaces and I'd not say asphalt is much softer than concrete.
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