Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-12-16, 06:59 PM   #26
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Pills, booze, weed... If society didn't bother legislating against these things, a killer of innocents like this would have taken himself out a long time ago. Arch conservative William F. Buckley was so intelligent he realized more >20 years ago that the War on Drugs was Lost and that legislation against drugs was futile.


"I would rather be governed by the first 2000 people in the Manhattan phone book than the entire faculty of Harvard." ~Wm F. Buckley
Let's NOT lump all those together... booze and pills can lead to aggressive actions, but weed rarely does... unless a bag of cheetos is involved.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-16, 08:40 PM   #27
crtbike
Member
 
crtbike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Memphis Tennessee
Bikes: New bike: TREK 8.2 Dusl Sport, Old Bike: Huffy Mountain Bike
Posts: 43
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Thanks for your comments. I can not wait until I get back on the bike in October.
crtbike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-16, 04:03 AM   #28
bobwysiwyg 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: Mongoose Selous gravel bike
Posts: 858
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 229 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
I don't recall seeing any of the ones I'm thinking of recently, but they were metal, hemispherical, bolted down, (unlike Bott's Dots or some of the 4-6" diameter hemispheres that are placed with adhesive) and big enough that hitting them over 10-15mph in even a pickup would jerk the wheel hard. I've seen cars disabled with busted control arms from hitting them at full speed, but that (when they're reflectorized and maintained properly) goes back to my general assertion that someone who can't avoid hitting a stationary high-visibility object outside the normal driving lane should probably have to at least pay for some expensive repairs as encouragement to drive better.

Their biggest drawback seemed to be the lack of maintenance, leading to a lack of paint, and a grayish metal lump (not all had reflectors) doesn't stand out well against pavement. I'm sure that, and the general whining from the same people who demanded breakaway sign and mailbox posts led to them being removed, or at least not replaced.
I've never heard of these, but trying to envision how snowplows would deal with them?
bobwysiwyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-16, 08:03 AM   #29
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
I don't recall seeing any of the ones I'm thinking of recently, but they were metal, hemispherical, bolted down, (unlike Bott's Dots or some of the 4-6" diameter hemispheres that are placed with adhesive) and big enough that hitting them over 10-15mph in even a pickup would jerk the wheel hard. I've seen cars disabled with busted control arms from hitting them at full speed, but that (when they're reflectorized and maintained properly) goes back to my general assertion that someone who can't avoid hitting a stationary high-visibility object outside the normal driving lane should probably have to at least pay for some expensive repairs as encouragement to drive better.

Their biggest drawback seemed to be the lack of maintenance, leading to a lack of paint, and a grayish metal lump (not all had reflectors) doesn't stand out well against pavement. I'm sure that, and the general whining from the same people who demanded breakaway sign and mailbox posts led to them being removed, or at least not replaced.
They use those big ones (the size of small pumpkins) in the Ft Worth area. Usually painted a bright yellow... and indeed big enough to bend wheels, and cause other havoc if run over.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-16, 10:16 AM   #30
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,208
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3284 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
They use those big ones (the size of small pumpkins) in the Ft Worth area. Usually painted a bright yellow... and indeed big enough to bend wheels, and cause other havoc if run over.
They might be good for certain urban areas.

The Kalamazoo accident was on a rural road. The shoulders at as buffers for driving. Shoulderless roads just feel constricted which passing.

Putting the half pumpkins on the road sounds dangerous.

Rumble Strips should wake up drivers, but are only effective at the point where the tires cross the rumble strip. I think there was an accident somewhere recently where the rumble strips crossed the entire shoulder, and the only place to ride was in traffic.

Maybe one could put periodic small bumps and reflectors in the shoulder which would be enough to alert sane drivers, and cyclists could maneuver around them.
CliffordK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-16, 10:19 AM   #31
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 14,208
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3284 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Let's NOT lump all those together... booze and pills can lead to aggressive actions, but weed rarely does... unless a bag of cheetos is involved.
I don't have any first-hand experience, but like alcohol, marijuana is supposed to dull one's senses, slow reaction times, and create hallucinations. Driving stoned is supposed to double the chance of an accident.
CliffordK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-16, 11:38 AM   #32
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I don't have any first-hand experience, but like alcohol, marijuana is supposed to dull one's senses, slow reaction times, and create hallucinations. Driving stoned is supposed to double the chance of an accident.
Indeed pot does likely dull senses, and may affect one's driving... but pot has never shown to increase aggression in a user, unlike booze, or pills.

Marijuana-related fatal car accidents surge in Washington state after legalization - Washington Times
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-13-16, 08:00 PM   #33
B. Carfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Bikes:
Posts: 6,663
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 286 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Indeed pot does likely dull senses, and may affect one's driving... but pot has never shown to increase aggression in a user, unlike booze, or pills.

Marijuana-related fatal car accidents surge in Washington state after legalization - Washington Times
I'm too lazy to hunt it down at the moment, but wasn't there a finding last year that marijuana plus alcohol was quite a bit deadlier when combined with driving than mere alcohol? IIRC, marijuana by itself was no great shakes. Perhaps the large increases in car wrecks in states that have legalized is from people combining the two.
B. Carfree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-16, 07:35 AM   #34
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Carfree View Post
I'm too lazy to hunt it down at the moment, but wasn't there a finding last year that marijuana plus alcohol was quite a bit deadlier when combined with driving than mere alcohol? IIRC, marijuana by itself was no great shakes. Perhaps the large increases in car wrecks in states that have legalized is from people combining the two.
No doubt, but again it is alcohol that is the bigger issue...
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-16, 09:10 AM   #35
shipwreck
Senior Member
 
shipwreck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 1,426
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by crtbike View Post
I was very saddened that morning because a week earlier I was hit by a car while out riding solo. I was riding home from a group ride when I was hit by a car. i was very fortunate that my life was spared that day. The EMT said that if I have not had my helmet on, I would not be here. I suffered a broken arm (surgery to have a metal plate and 9 screws), C6 fracture and T11 fracture. I am 2 months and 1 week into my recovery. I have use of my left arm again. I am back at work. I just wear a neck collar and I get to start weaning it off Aug 25th. I am so excited. I should be back in the saddle in October It is going to be so hard to get back on the bike, but I have got to do it. Any suggestions? I am planning on getting a group to ride with me the first ride for moral support.

My injurys were just a broken collar bone and deep abdominal bruising, so not as bad as yours. Was hit on the helmet by a rear view mirror on a Harley of all things, according to the driver of the car was behind him. Was able to walk the mile or so to the emergency room myself. It was a hit and run.
It will feel really weird when you get back on. I don't live in an area where I can get a group together, so started again like I always ride, solo. At first I tooled around gently, up and down the rural road I live on. Then slightly longer trips to town on a comfortable bike. Finally I tool my first ride on the highway, and was sort of flinchy for a bit, but by the time I got my legs back from the time off, it felt fine again.

I dont ride my fixed gear anymore, cause it was the momentary shock of being hit that made me stop pedaling at 20mph. And I have to have a good mirror. Didn't have it with me that day.
Good luck.
shipwreck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-16, 10:56 AM   #36
jon c. 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Bikes:
Posts: 2,720
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 384 Post(s)
The headline in the Washington story is a bit sensationalized. The reality is the data is pretty close to meaningless at this point as is indicated in the body of the story:

“We should not conflate the detection of certain substance with the notion that the driver was necessarily impaired with certain substances,” he said. “This data may reflect that a greater portion of the public is using cannabis, that police are more routinely screening for cannabis or that there have been procedural changes in the way drug screening in accidents is performed.”
jon c. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-16, 11:42 AM   #37
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
Not just Washington, Colorado saw the increase as well.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-16, 01:00 PM   #38
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
The headline in the Washington story is a bit sensationalized. The reality is the data is pretty close to meaningless at this point as is indicated in the body of the story:

“We should not conflate the detection of certain substance with the notion that the driver was necessarily impaired with certain substances,” he said. “This data may reflect that a greater portion of the public is using cannabis, that police are more routinely screening for cannabis or that there have been procedural changes in the way drug screening in accidents is performed.”
Wow, someone actually read the link.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-14-16, 09:56 PM   #39
KD5NRH
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Bikes: 2010 Trek 7100
Posts: 3,142
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 365 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
They use those big ones (the size of small pumpkins) in the Ft Worth area. Usually painted a bright yellow... and indeed big enough to bend wheels, and cause other havoc if run over.
The ones I remember seeing were beyond a double row of regular Bott's Dots, so someone would have plenty of warning if they were drifting toward them. IIRC, the goal was complete exclusion of cars from a gore point or similar area while leaving a good path for bicycles and strollers.
KD5NRH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 12:21 AM   #40
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Centurion Ironman Expert
Posts: 4,560
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1012 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
I am very sorry for the families of the cyclists who have to live in the wake of this terrible event.

However, a few things.

We don't know if the driver HATED bicyclists. He was apparently trying to forget the world and probably was debating committing suicide that night. No one has that many drugs/alcohol and goes out for a drive without those thoughts. You can't stop people from doing things like this. People will always have access to drugs and always have access to alcohol and marijuana. Did he purposely hit the cyclists? We'll never know honestly, and I'm sure his impaired "state" will be used to try to get him a lighter sentence... Unfortunately.

As for the "well he hasn't been convicted of this or this yet." He's been charged with 5 counts of operating a vehicle while intoxicated causing death and 5 counts of 2nd degree murder. (Among other things.) He's going to go to jail for a long time, most likely the rest of his life. Does it matter what he is charged with?

As for... euthanising... him... The death penalty doesn't dissuade people from committing crimes. Don't believe me? Look it up. It is also LUDICROUSLY expensive to actually do the deed. While some people probably could use it, the local and federal government is essentially a business, and most of them choose not to spend money on things like that simply so someone can "feel better/get retribution."

As for more... extreme... punishments. We're good humans. We cannot stoop to levels of criminals. Period.
I usually advocate second chances, third chances, every opportunity to turn a life around. I've stuck by this philosophy with family, friends and neighbors who have struggled with substance abuse and addiction, mental health issues and multiple recidivism.

But this guy was an anti-social bomb just looking for a place to explode. Take a look at his Facebook page. It's post after post, month after month, as far back as you can stomach looking, nothing but anti-social, sexist, hostile crap. Reporter observations of his arraignment indicate the guy showed no signs of remorse. This guy can't blame substance abuse for his behavior. He's a substance abuser because of his behaviors and overall indifference toward society. He may have suffered some sort of abuse when he was in his formative years, but by the time he was an adult he was responsible for his own behaviors and issues.

If I'd known this guy personally, family or friend, I'd have cut him loose many years ago. Some people are unrepentant and beyond help. Give 'em enough rope and they'll tie knots around everyone they know and drag 'em down.
canklecat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 02:03 AM   #41
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
I am tired of second and third + chances that put the rest of us in extra danger.

If this woman does not learn, few others ever do:
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 02:05 AM   #42
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
And this lady:

Lots more examples we could post.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 06:45 AM   #43
rydabent
Senior Member
 
rydabent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Cruiser
Posts: 6,417
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 617 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
I am tired of second and third + chances that put the rest of us in extra danger.

If this woman does not learn, few others ever do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJXJB-0kFME
I agree 100%. A person needs to be responsible at all times. Why unleash a proven criminal on the public so they can kill or maim again?

It is way past time for the courts to hand out harsh penalties for drivers that kill or maim cyclist.
rydabent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 09:32 AM   #44
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
I agree 100%. A person needs to be responsible at all times. Why unleash a proven criminal on the public so they can kill or maim again?

It is way past time for the courts to hand out harsh penalties for drivers that kill or maim cyclist.
FIFY...
It is way past time for the courts to hand out harsh penalties for drivers that kill or maim others.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 12:31 PM   #45
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,508
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 212 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I don't have any first-hand experience, but like alcohol, marijuana is supposed to dull one's senses, slow reaction times, and create hallucinations. Driving stoned is supposed to double the chance of an accident.
All true except hallucinations - really overindulge to have hallucinations. Think in terms of "black out drunk". Yes it happens, but not to casual or recreational drinkers except in rare and out of control situations. I indulged in the wacky tobaccy regularly until about 30 years ago. I don't do it except rarely now, maybe once every year or two, but am familiar with the strength of the current strains. I have never, ever personally heard of hallucinations from cannabis from myself or anyone I know who uses it casually or regularly. Never. Sounds like the complete list of possible side effects you see on medication.

As for driving - I don't advocate driving high on pot. But, again in my experience, I'd much rather be on the road with a casual, non-hard core cannabis user vs. someone who is even a casual drinker. Even more so for hard core pot users vs. hard core drinkers. Drinking, imho, is much more dangerous on the road. I think cannabis users have more self awareness (call it paranoia!) and tend to be ultra cautious because of it, compared to drinkers.

Please, I repeat: I don't think anyone should drive impaired, I'm talking relative danger. I think laws restricting cannabis use are just ridiculous, a waste of lives and governmental resources, increase criminal behavior and it should be no more criminalized than alcohol. Cannabis use should be legal, but driving while impaired should be punished across the board including all substances.

Last edited by Camilo; 08-15-16 at 12:35 PM.
Camilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 01:31 PM   #46
corrado33
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bozeman
Bikes: 199? Landshark Roadshark, 198? Mondonico Diamond, 1987 Panasonic DX-5000, 1987 Bianchi Limited, Univega... Chrome..., 1989 Schwinn Woodlands, Motobecane USA Record, Raleigh Tokul 2
Posts: 4,031
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1051 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Let's NOT lump all those together... booze and pills can lead to aggressive actions, but weed rarely does... unless a bag of cheetos is involved.
Funny that you have a problem grouping alcohol and pills with weed, but don't have a problem with the extreme generalization of the word pills.

I mean, geeze there must only be 2 types to use it in that general of a sense. The obviously all have the same symptoms.

EDIT: For the record, when I search for recent publications studying the effects of marijuana on crash risk, they all have the same conclusion.

"Significant increase in motor vehicle accident risk." No, it does not make you drive more slowly and safely. It is still impaired driving. You're still putting yourself and others at risk.

Last edited by corrado33; 08-15-16 at 01:39 PM.
corrado33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 01:54 PM   #47
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by corrado33 View Post
Funny that you have a problem grouping alcohol and pills with weed, but don't have a problem with the extreme generalization of the word pills.

I mean, geeze there must only be 2 types to use it in that general of a sense. The obviously all have the same symptoms.

EDIT: For the record, when I search for recent publications studying the effects of marijuana on crash risk, they all have the same conclusion.

"Significant increase in motor vehicle accident risk." No, it does not make you drive more slowly and safely. It is still impaired driving. You're still putting yourself and others at risk.
You are right, "pills" is an incredibly broad category... which is why it should not be lumped with booze nor pot.

Any chemical introduced into the body can have different and detrimental effects on the user, so yes, pot can be lumped with other intoxicants. All I was trying to do is differentiate the aggressive vrs non aggressive driver issues by intoxicant... but again, I was painting with a damn broad brush (roller, even... )

There are non aggressive pill types too.

Bottom line, don't drive while under the influence of anything stronger than water in your system.... and keep your mind and eyes on the road. Clearly the Kalamazoo driver was anything but "sober."
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 01:56 PM   #48
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Bikes: Surly LHT, and 3 others
Posts: 5,756
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 365 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
It is way past time for the courts to hand out harsh penalties for drivers that kill or maim cyclist.
Drunk drivers get a true "jury of their peers" in New Orleans where 50% of all motorists are legally drunk at any given moment. Not New Years Eve, not Labor Day Weekend....ANY day of the week. In an alcohol culture we can not depend on jury trials to give us justice. And I can assure you that most attorneys and judges here also drive drunk. So do off-duty cops, professional athletes, and other celebs.

Given the facts on the ground, I will ride my bike like everyone is drunk as well as limit the amount of time/miles that I remain exposed on a bicycle to the cold, cruel world out there. I can only control ME. Be aware, limit exposure. This is the only solution in my situation.
.
.
.

Last edited by JoeyBike; 08-15-16 at 02:03 PM.
JoeyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 01:58 PM   #49
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,500
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2457 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
Drunk drivers get a true "jury of their peers" in New Orleans where 50% of all motorists are legally drunk at any given moment. Not New Years Eve, not Labor Day Weekend....ANY day of the week. In an alcohol culture we can not depend on jury trials to give us justice. And I can assure you that most attorneys and judges here also drive drunk.
.
.
.
I wonder how many attorneys and judges there also work/serve drunk.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-15-16, 02:38 PM   #50
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,033
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 830 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
I wonder how many attorneys and judges there also work/serve drunk.
Too many:
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:29 PM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION