Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-16-16, 04:42 PM   #51
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 4,267
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 115 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
.." in New Orleans where 50% of all motorists are legally drunk at any given moment. Not New Years Eve, not Labor Day Weekend....ANY day of the week. ...
That's incredible. Is it a bona fide statistic or hyperbole to make a point?

Quote:
Given the facts on the ground, I will ride my bike like everyone is drunk
Not a bad strategy. I don't use the thought of them being drunk, but just ride as defensively, predictably, and proactively as possible at all times.

Quote:
as well as limit the amount of time/miles that I remain exposed on a bicycle to the cold, cruel world out there. I can only control ME. Be aware, limit exposure. This is the only solution in my situation.
It's a shame that it's so dangerous where you ride that you have to actually limit your riding because of it. I feel fortunate I've never lived nor ridden in a place that makes me constantly afraid. Cautious? yes. But not actually worrying or afraid.
Camilo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-16, 07:22 PM   #52
rekmeyata
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 8,346
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Friggin' Terrible. Bikes hit from behind at nearly 60mph.
I say give him the death penalty.
Since all indications are pointing to the driver purposely trying to hit the cyclists...I agree with the death sentence; but knowing our judicial system he'll probably get 10 years with time served. I would even go a bit further and more barbaric death sentence and that is to run him over with his own truck he used to run those cyclists over...yeah I know, I'm one sick motha.
rekmeyata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-16, 08:55 PM   #53
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Bikes: Surly LHT, and 3 others
Posts: 5,628
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camilo View Post
That's incredible. Is it a bona fide statistic or hyperbole to make a point?
I read the statistic back in the mid '80s. Due to MADD and now UBER the number is likely a tad lower. And the drinking age back then was 18. Louisiana (the entire state) is a tad higher than the national average but New Orleans (Orleans Parish) is off the charts for drinking and driving. Not necessarily hammered but enough alcohol to impair function. It's cultural and people don't even think about it. They go out, eat and drink, then drive. Almost every person I know does it, some to extreme. This paragraph from Frommer's Travel Guide will give you some insight:

"Drinking Laws [New Orleans] -- ...Alcoholic beverages are available round-the-clock, 7 days a week. Bars can stay open all night in New Orleans, and liquor is sold in grocery and liquor stores. You’re allowed to drink in public, but not from a glass or bottle. Bars will provide a plastic “go cup” into which you can transfer your drink as you leave (and some have walk-up windows for quick and easy refills)."

We even have "Drive-Through" daiquiri shops - they put a piece of tape over the straw hole in the lid when they hand it to you to beat the "open container" laws. Now how many drivers do you think will NOT rip the tape off and jam a straw in the hole immediately with an expensive frozen drink in their grimy hands? And when you are out for your morning Giro with your buds on Saturday or Sunday at sunrise you will be sharing the road with all of the drunks driving home from the bars and clubs.

I can not find any current statistics regarding the 50% claim I made. I would not be surprised if it were even higher on weekends and holidays.

Quote:
Not a bad strategy. I don't use the thought of them being drunk, but just ride as defensively, predictably, and proactively as possible at all times.
It raises the bar when you know half of them are under the influence. You learn what days and times to never ride and are careful all the rest of the time ESPECIALLY rear-end collisions.

Quote:
It's a shame that it's so dangerous where you ride that you have to actually limit your riding because of it. I feel fortunate I've never lived nor ridden in a place that makes me constantly afraid. Cautious? yes. But not actually worrying or afraid.
Yeah. I gave up recreational cycling a couple years ago. I am still car-free but only cycle when I must (getting to work, doctor, grocery, etc.) I found other things to do. Luckily I have lots of interests outside of cycling.
JoeyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-16-16, 08:56 PM   #54
CliffordK 
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,658
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1812 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Since all indications are pointing to the driver purposely trying to hit the cyclists...I agree with the death sentence; but knowing our judicial system he'll probably get 10 years with time served. I would even go a bit further and more barbaric death sentence and that is to run him over with his own truck he used to run those cyclists over...yeah I know, I'm one sick motha.
I didn't see intent.
He was just so intoxicated that he didn't know up from down.

The day after he had to ask what happened.

Prosecuting intent or premeditation would be difficult.
CliffordK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-16, 12:31 AM   #55
CB HI
Cycle Year Round
 
CB HI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Honolulu, HI
Bikes:
Posts: 12,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 575 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I didn't see intent.
He was just so intoxicated that he didn't know up from down.

The day after he had to ask what happened.

Prosecuting intent or premeditation would be difficult.
The intent occurred when he took a hand full of pills, shoved them in his mouth and then turn the key on his truck.
__________________
Land of the Free, Because of the Brave.
CB HI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-16, 02:44 AM   #56
bobwysiwyg 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Bikes: Specialized Expedition
Posts: 507
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
The intent occurred when he took a hand full of pills, shoved them in his mouth and then turn the key on his truck.
I agree. Not recognizing the earlier, primary act of intent is what continues to get drunk drivers lighter than justified punishment.
bobwysiwyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-16, 08:30 AM   #57
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit
Bikes: 1978 Schwinn Le Tour III
Posts: 2,676
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 792 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
I am tired of second and third + chances that put the rest of us in extra danger.
I'm all for keeping people out of prison on a first accident and giving them one chance. Once they have proven themselves a continued danger to society, I'm all for tossing them in. Prison should be for keeping people that have proven they cannot safely interact with the rest of society away from society, not for punishing every last transgression that occurs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
Since all indications are pointing to the driver purposely trying to hit the cyclists...I agree with the death sentence; but knowing our judicial system he'll probably get 10 years with time served. I would even go a bit further and more barbaric death sentence and that is to run him over with his own truck he used to run those cyclists over...yeah I know, I'm one sick motha.
As Michigan does not have the death penalty, I think you'll find that a bit difficult. That said, charges are 2nd degree murder, meaning life is a very likely outcome. I don't disagree with the charge, I'd rather him get life (or at least decades) for that than the prosecutors stretching to prove it was intentional and him getting off on the charge.
jefnvk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-16, 09:00 AM   #58
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Bikes: Surly LHT, and 3 others
Posts: 5,628
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I didn't see intent.
He was just so intoxicated that he didn't know up from down.

The day after he had to ask what happened.

Prosecuting intent or premeditation would be difficult.
Perhaps we need a new category in the law for people who willingly drug themselves and operate machinery without concern. I wonder how many times in his life has he done this? I bet somewhere between 100 and 1000 times. There is your "intent" if you can prove that. He kept trying to kill someone, by putting everyone at risk repeatedly, until he finally succeeded.

How 'bout that?
JoeyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-17-16, 09:27 AM   #59
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit
Bikes: 1978 Schwinn Le Tour III
Posts: 2,676
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 792 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyBike View Post
Perhaps we need a new category in the law for people who willingly drug themselves and operate machinery without concern. I wonder how many times in his life has he done this? I bet somewhere between 100 and 1000 times. There is your "intent" if you can prove that. He kept trying to kill someone, by putting everyone at risk repeatedly, until he finally succeeded.

How 'bout that?
We already have that in Michigan. It is a 15-20 year felony.

The prosecutors decided to go above and beyond that.
jefnvk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-16, 01:27 PM   #60
cb400bill
Forum Moderator
 
cb400bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 12,378
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Pickett ruled competent to face trial in bike deaths

KALAMAZOO – The Battle Creek man charged with killing five bicyclists and injuring four others in Kalamazoo County has been ruled competent to stand trial.

But Charles Pickett Jr. described to a psychologist last week feelings of hopelessness and worthlessness and said he does not remember anything about the June 7 crash north of Kalamazoo.

Pickett, 50, appeared Wednesday morning in Kalamazoo County District Court before Judge Robert Kropf, according to Carrie Klein, Kalamazoo County chief assistant prosecutor.

The judge determined Pickett was competent based on an evaluation at the Center for Forensic Psychiatry in Salin
e.
cb400bill is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-16, 01:39 PM   #61
CliffordK 
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,658
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1812 Post(s)
Sober him up, and he's likely "competent", and capable of understanding what he did.

No doubt the defense will argue that he wasn't in charge of his faculties at the time of the incident. Whether that will hold water with the court and judge will be another story.
CliffordK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-16, 01:53 PM   #62
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,079
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Sober him up, and he's likely "competent", and capable of understanding what he did.

No doubt the defense will argue that he wasn't in charge of his faculties at the time of the incident. Whether that will hold water with the court and judge will be another story.
Then the last place he should have been was "operating heavy machinery..."

Sorry, no defense.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-16, 05:36 PM   #63
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Bikes: Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel, Motobecane Mirage
Posts: 2,833
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 456 Post(s)
Many folks experience the problems described in that medical evaluation about Pickett. They get help. They don't drug themselves up to the point of oblivion and go for a death ride.

And they don't post dozens of anti-social warning indicators on social media indicating they're a bomb looking for a place to explode.

I won't take those warning signs lightly anymore. I saw a similar Facebook page by a Texas man who basically told cyclists to get the hell off his road and they won't get run over. And this was in response to a story about another road rager assaulting cyclists. Sames types of anti-social posts implying or outright threatening aggression.
canklecat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-16, 12:58 AM   #64
CliffordK 
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Bikes:
Posts: 11,658
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1812 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
And they don't post dozens of anti-social warning indicators on social media indicating they're a bomb looking for a place to explode.

I won't take those warning signs lightly anymore. I saw a similar Facebook page by a Texas man who basically told cyclists to get the hell off his road and they won't get run over. And this was in response to a story about another road rager assaulting cyclists. Sames types of anti-social posts implying or outright threatening aggression.
Either fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on what side of the fence one is on, people can say or write just about anything here in the USA, up until the point where they actually act on their words, or incite others to do violence.

I couldn't imagine a more miserable job than following up on alleged hate speech on Facebook.

Facebook, however, does have a policy against Hate Speech, but also allows humor written in poor taste. So, while somewhat ambiguous, that would be one way to get rid of the public persona of the Pickets of the world. However, that wouldn't necessarily change their personality.
CliffordK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-16, 04:12 AM   #65
rekmeyata
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 8,346
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I didn't see intent.
He was just so intoxicated that he didn't know up from down.

The day after he had to ask what happened.

Prosecuting intent or premeditation would be difficult.
You don't see intent? His intentions were to go out and get drunk and drive, that's all the intent that should matter. no one forced him to get drunk, he did it himself. That's like saying I take a gun and start firing it into a crowd of people, then say I didn't intend to kill anyone just freak them out.
rekmeyata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-16, 03:49 AM   #66
KD5NRH
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Bikes:
Posts: 2,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Simple solution; apply the culpable mental state under which they got intoxicated to the resultant crime.

Not culpable: somebody spiked their drink and the effects weren't apparent prior to the act in question
Reckless: drank something they weren't familiar with, or took a med they legitimately weren't aware (and wouldn't be aware from reading the label) would cause impairment - obviously, there should be some liability with the manufacturer for the label here
Criminally negligent: see above, but felt tipsy or had other indications of a problem before the criminal act
Knowing: pretty obvious here
Intentional: same - note that for many crimes, knowing and intentional are equivalent, or at least pretty similar in penalty category.

Hitting other things or running off the road and continuing to drive, under this system, would be prima facie evidence of intent.
KD5NRH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-16, 08:22 AM   #67
rekmeyata
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 8,346
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
Simple solution; apply the culpable mental state under which they got intoxicated to the resultant crime.

Not culpable: somebody spiked their drink and the effects weren't apparent prior to the act in question
Reckless: drank something they weren't familiar with, or took a med they legitimately weren't aware (and wouldn't be aware from reading the label) would cause impairment - obviously, there should be some liability with the manufacturer for the label here
Criminally negligent: see above, but felt tipsy or had other indications of a problem before the criminal act
Knowing: pretty obvious here
Intentional: same - note that for many crimes, knowing and intentional are equivalent, or at least pretty similar in penalty category.

Hitting other things or running off the road and continuing to drive, under this system, would be prima facie evidence of intent.

All modern day medicines are clearly marked that if you take ABC meds that you should not drink alcohol or operate heavy machinery or drive, its not the fault of the manufacture that the prescription taker is too stupid to read or ask the pharmacist what the side effects are. This nonsense about blaming the manufacture for everything has got to stop, and the blame needs to be put squarely on the user because they are the ones responsible for not adhering to the instructions given either in written form and or verbal form. In fact all pharmacies I've been to where a med was given to either myself or my wife, any such meds that have an effect on the ability to drive or has adverse effects with alcohol was not only written on the bottle and on the instructions but the pharmacist also relayed that information verbally to us.
rekmeyata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-16, 11:01 PM   #68
KD5NRH
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Bikes:
Posts: 2,626
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 157 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
All modern day medicines are clearly marked that if you take ABC meds that you should not drink alcohol or operate heavy machinery or drive,
If it's a common side effect, yes, but I've had some meds where dizziness, disorientation, etc. was uncommon or rare, and it was only mentioned far down in the fine print.
KD5NRH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-16, 06:36 AM   #69
rekmeyata
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 8,346
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 550 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
If it's a common side effect, yes, but I've had some meds where dizziness, disorientation, etc. was uncommon or rare, and it was only mentioned far down in the fine print.
If the meds don't say not to drive and or operate heavy machinery or drink then you're good to go...but of course a person needs to use common sense, which in today's world people aren't required to have common sense, but if you feel dizzy, disorientated, etc then why would a person with common sense take a risk in driving or whatever knowing they're like that? Ok, in those cases, since the meds don't state not to do certain things yet it has an adverse affect then that person should not be held accountable but rather the company that made the meds without proper warnings. I've taken meds that said not to drive etc and those meds did nothing to me to make me feel like I couldn't drive, though I didn't because it said not to.

Common sense should tell a person not to drive a car if you've been drinking (include drugs in this) more than what is legally acceptable, and if you do and you kill someone off to jail you go for an extended period of time like for life. But this nonsense of either doing nothing other than going to AAA meetings after killing someone or seriously injuring someone while intoxicated and driving needs to stop, until laws get tough enough to where it will scare a person into not driving while intoxicated this isn't going to prevent the majority of current intoxicated drivers from not driving. Even with a tough life sentence you'll still have those that think they can get away with it, but should reduce the number of fatalities caused by an intoxicated driver by 50%...not sure of course if that 50% would be higher or lower but that's what I would think would happen, a lot of people who want to go out and party and a good time have good jobs and families, those are the ones that most would think twice about ruining all of that.
rekmeyata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-16, 07:21 AM   #70
cb400bill
Forum Moderator
 
cb400bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 12,378
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Hey guys! This thread is about news updates about the tragic events that happened in Kalamazoo. Please start another thread to discuss other topics.
cb400bill is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-16, 07:51 AM   #71
Len S 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Berkley, Michigan USA
Bikes: 1972 Gitane Gransport, 1985 Gitane Performance
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Pickup driver charged in 5 cyclist deaths

Always try to stay alert but not much you can do if vehicle driver is high and out of control.

Pickup driver charged in 5 cyclist deaths ?drugged up?
Len S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-16, 08:48 AM   #72
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Bikes: Surly LHT, and 3 others
Posts: 5,628
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
This guy was not the last one out there folks. Act accordingly.
.
.
.
JoeyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-16, 09:05 AM   #73
Milton Keynes
Senior Member
 
Milton Keynes's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Bikes:
Posts: 560
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
The thing which is irritating is that his girlfriend watched him swallow a handful of pills before driving off, and she didn't call the police to keep an eye out for him. That possibly could have saved some lives.
Milton Keynes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-16, 09:12 AM   #74
JoeyBike
20+mph Commuter
 
JoeyBike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New Orleans, LA USA
Bikes: Surly LHT, and 3 others
Posts: 5,628
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 261 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
The thing which is irritating is that his girlfriend watched him swallow a handful of pills before driving off, and she didn't call the police to keep an eye out for him. That possibly could have saved some lives.
Not her's.
.
.
.
JoeyBike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-16, 10:52 AM   #75
jefnvk
Senior Member
 
jefnvk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Metro Detroit
Bikes: 1978 Schwinn Le Tour III
Posts: 2,676
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 792 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton Keynes View Post
The thing which is irritating is that his girlfriend watched him swallow a handful of pills before driving off, and she didn't call the police to keep an eye out for him. That possibly could have saved some lives.
None of us have any idea what their relationship was. Maybe she was frightened what he'd do to her if she called the cops on him.

In any case, the cops had multiple calls about him with substantial time before the crash. She just would have been one more.
jefnvk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:55 AM.