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Old 11-30-16, 11:29 PM   #76
Chris0516
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
FWIW, driving home tonite, there was a bike riding the wrong way against traffic with lights. First thing that identified it as a bike to me? The reflectors on the pedals. Didn't even notice the light until I figured out what it was.

Lights are no guarantee of identification or avoidance of a bike, even at night, and people see things differently.
But lights are personally adjustable, compared to the environmental light.
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Old 12-01-16, 06:14 AM   #77
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The evidence is here, you chose not to see.
I have spent several hours researching this topic and have not been able to find any and have asked others to produce it several times on this forum. You yourself have been unable to produce it. Since I have not been able to find it and nobody else has been able to produce it I have concluded that no such evidence exists. I am very open to someone proving me wrong on this point so we can advance the discussion to a cost-benefit analysis which I find to be much more interesting. Because even if I were to concede that lights during the day or blinking lights have an outcomes benefit,I do not believe that it is worth the cost.
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Old 12-01-16, 06:38 AM   #78
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I have spent several hours researching this topic and have not been able to find any....
Yeah, you are right - because you spent "several hours researching" you have clearly proven your point - to yourself.

Hans! (AFAIK, no relation)

-mr. bill

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Old 12-01-16, 06:45 AM   #79
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I've had drivers pull up next to me at lights and thank me for my lights as well as hi-vis clothing, they really noticed me unlike many who use no light, dark bikes and dark clothing. At least 'they' noticed me more easily.
I have had many drivers Stop and tell me that they saw my strobe lights from 1/2 mile back.
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Old 12-01-16, 07:15 AM   #80
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FWIW, driving home tonite, there was a bike riding the wrong way against traffic with lights. First thing that identified it as a bike to me? The reflectors on the pedals. Didn't even notice the light until I figured out what it was.

Lights are no guarantee of identification or avoidance of a bike, even at night, and people see things differently.
You know what you would *NOT* see first during the day? The reflectors on the pedals.

-mr. bill

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Old 12-01-16, 07:16 AM   #81
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You know what you would *NOT* see first during the day? The reflectors on the pedals.

-mr. bill
Very True
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Old 12-01-16, 09:35 AM   #82
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I have spent several hours researching this topic and have not been able to find any and have asked others to produce it several times on this forum. You yourself have been unable to produce it. Since I have not been able to find it and nobody else has been able to produce it I have concluded that no such evidence exists. I am very open to someone proving me wrong on this point so we can advance the discussion to a cost-benefit analysis which I find to be much more interesting. Because even if I were to concede that lights during the day or blinking lights have an outcomes benefit,I do not believe that it is worth the cost.
Cost benefit? I don't get run over? I already have the lights. What is the price of your life, broken bones or major injury? Crashed bike? The only evidence I need is that when I am driving in my car, the bikes I see first have daytime blinkies. That is all I need. Is it perfect ? Not even close. Just trying to skew the odds in my favor by .005%. Seen the new Bontrager ads for the flare daytime running lights. Trek I'm sure has no facts, basis or info for what they think is a good policy for daytime lights. YRMV. Not everything comes down to stats. Maybe I just like lighting up those giant green hiway signs. I also like using the flashing lights when I line up behind cars. There probably is not going to be some research science data. Maybe just look around when you drive and bike. You know, empirical observation.
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Old 12-01-16, 09:43 AM   #83
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Cost benefit? I don't get run over? I already have the lights. What is the price of your life, broken bones or major injury? Crashed bike? The only evidence I need is that when I am driving in my car, the bikes I see first have daytime blinkies. That is all I need. Is it perfect ? Not even close. Just trying to skew the odds in my favor by .005%. Seen the new Bontrager ads for the flare daytime running lights. Trek I'm sure has no facts, basis or info for what they think is a good policy for daytime lights. YRMV. Not everything comes down to stats. Maybe I just like lighting up those giant green hiway signs. I also like using the flashing lights when I line up behind cars. There probably is not going to be some research science data. Maybe just look around when you drive and bike. You know, empirical observation.
There is indeed published research about running lights, as anyone who spent "several hours researching" should know.

I mean, typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google gets you the trek page as the first link.

Typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google scholar gets you a well executed study of running lights in Odense Denmark. Sheesh.

-mr. bill
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Old 12-01-16, 09:56 AM   #84
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You know what you would *NOT* see first during the day? The reflectors on the pedals.

-mr. bill
Sure, but I'm not seeing a $5 blinky LED over a 6' square of hi-viz yellow, either.

In any case, there are plenty here that argue for taking reflectors off, because in their minds they do nothing and look dorky, despite them being a safety device.
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Old 12-01-16, 10:20 AM   #85
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There is indeed published research about running lights, as anyone who spent "several hours researching" should know.

I mean, typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google gets you the trek page as the first link.

Typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google scholar gets you a well executed study of running lights in Odense Denmark. Sheesh.

-mr. bill
I'm sure Kingston will be reading lots.
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Old 12-01-16, 10:20 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
There is indeed published research about running lights, as anyone who spent "several hours researching" should know.

I mean, typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google gets you the trek page as the first link.

Typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google scholar gets you a well executed study of running lights in Odense Denmark. Sheesh.

-mr. bill
I have to chuckle a bit... going to the Trek site... one gets hit with their "research..."

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Originally Posted by Trek
When cars did it, they reduced accidents by 25%. And motorcycles saw a 13% drop. Bicycle Daytime Running Lights just make sense, and all existing research indicates that the single best way for a cyclist to increase the likelihood of being seen by a driver is to use a flashing light that’s daylight visible.
But here is the laughable ironic part... the image they show is of a cyclist dressed in all black, while they try to convince you of the need for visibility. Hey Trek... how about if your cyclist doesn't dress like "the Shadow..."
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Old 12-01-16, 11:10 AM   #87
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Sure, but I'm not seeing a $5 blinky LED over a 6' square of hi-viz yellow, either.

In any case, there are plenty here that argue for taking reflectors off, because in their minds they do nothing and look dorky, despite them being a safety device.
Well, I'm clearly part of the retroreflective-industrial-complex too.

The $5 blinky will cost quite a bit more than $5 when you throw in all the costs of all the replacement 2032s.

The cost of a good USB rechargeable tail light is now ~$25ish.

And in *some* day light conditions (rainy or foggy daybreak for example) - the hi-viz isn't but the good rechargable tail light is (viz).

On be seen - I'm more of a triad type - reflectors, bright and contrasting color, & active lights. (And then assume you aren't.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 12-02-16 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 12-01-16, 12:12 PM   #88
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I haven't seen a blinky light for under 40-50 bucks that is visible during the daytime, and often more than that. I'll run a light during dawn/dusk/foggy/rainy conditions and at night, but never bother to during daylight hours. I would rather save the charge on the batteries for when I need to use them.
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Old 12-01-16, 12:44 PM   #89
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Are motorcycles required to have DRLs?
-Federal law does not require motorcycles to have DRLs, although all manufacturers voluntarily equip their cycles with such lights. Some states including California require the lights, and 22 states require motorcyclists to ride with their headlights on at all hours.


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Questions & Answers: Daytime Running Lights
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Old 12-01-16, 02:20 PM   #90
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I haven't seen a blinky light for under 40-50 bucks that is visible during the daytime, and often more than that. I'll run a light during dawn/dusk/foggy/rainy conditions and at night, but never bother to during daylight hours. I would rather save the charge on the batteries for when I need to use them.
Check out the cygolite hot shot for the back light. 2 watts, very bright, $32.00 or so. All my lights have a usb port for recharging.
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Old 12-01-16, 02:35 PM   #91
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Both the niterider solas 30 lumens and cygo 30 lumens are pretty good drl's.

Certainly the 150 lumens variants of both are even better and they don't cost much more. $50 max for both.
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Old 12-01-16, 02:51 PM   #92
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Check out the cygolite hot shot for the back light. 2 watts, very bright, $32.00 or so. All my lights have a usb port for recharging.
I like the Hot Shot, but idk if it is very visible in full daylight. I got one as part of a combo pack of front and rear. I know they make a level of brightness above that one that is definitely visible during the daylight. I have a Specialized light that I know is bright enough for daytime use, but that was closer to $60 and the battery lasts somewhere around 3ish hours, maybe a little more. Not very useful for weekend riding where I'm usually in the saddle at least 4 hours.

I like lights, but I have enough where charging them all is getting a little annoying.
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Old 12-01-16, 10:43 PM   #93
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Most states require motorcycles to run lights day and night. Many cars now come with 'always on' daytime running lights. Because they make it easier to see the vehicle. As a motorist, I know it's easier to see bikes with lights and I tend to be aware of them sooner.

They won't ensure everyone will see you. And in some situations they are of very limited value. But they help, so I use them.

If you choose not to, I don't much care.

FWIW, Canada has had compulsory daytime running lights for many years. They are the high beams running at low power and never include rear lights. I presume that's so as not to reduce the impact of brake lights.


They are very helpful on the highway and give a very good awareness of approaching vehicles. In any event, car lights are a somewhat more powerful than normal bike lights which are barely visible in daylight.


I don't general light up in daylight and, like jon c., don't much care if others do or don't.
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Old 12-01-16, 11:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
There is indeed published research about running lights, as anyone who spent "several hours researching" should know.

I mean, typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google gets you the trek page as the first link.

Typing "running lights bicycle" (without quotes) into google scholar gets you a well executed study of running lights in Odense Denmark. Sheesh.

-mr. bill
Thanks, Mr. Bill. I will check out the Danish study. I have not come across that one before. Google Scholar is new to me. I may change my understanding regarding the efficacy of daytime running lights. Still haven't been able to find anything on blinking lights. The quality of the Trek "research" has already been covered.
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Old 12-02-16, 07:37 AM   #95
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Thanks, Mr. Bill. I will check out the Danish study. I have not come across that one before. Google Scholar is new to me. I may change my understanding regarding the efficacy of daytime running lights. Still haven't been able to find anything on blinking lights. The quality of the Trek "research" has already been covered.
Yet somehow you didn't find even the Trek "research" in your "several hours researching."

FWIW, the Madsen, Andersen (AFAIK, no relation to Hans) and Lahrmann published research was on *flashing* running lights, and found a ~50% reduction in multi-party crashes. They did not study the difference between flashing and steady running lights, since at the time the induction lights used only supported flashing.

A followup study on the safety impact of a yellow bicycle jacket was done by Lahrmann, Spaabaek, Madsen & Ossman, with similar methodology. Also finding approximately ~50% reduction in multi-party crashes.

So, the existing research covers annoying people on bicycles, and covers people wearing clownsuits on bicycles.

Future research no doubt will cover annoying people wearing clownsuits on bicycles. (It is unlikely the combined effect is completely additive.)

-mr. bill

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Old 12-02-16, 08:11 AM   #96
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I haven't seen a blinky light for under 40-50 bucks that is visible during the daytime, and often more than that. I'll run a light during dawn/dusk/foggy/rainy conditions and at night, but never bother to during daylight hours. I would rather save the charge on the batteries for when I need to use them.
Others have covered the lights that are out there.

I'll just note that *nothing* is visible during the daytime.

As proof - this morning:




-mr. bill
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Old 12-02-16, 09:41 AM   #97
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Yet somehow you didn't find even the Trek "research" in your "several hours researching."

FWIW, the Madsen, Andersen (AFAIK, no relation to Hans) and Lahrmann published research was on *flashing* running lights, and found a ~50% reduction in multi-party crashes. They did not study the difference between flashing and steady running lights, since at the time the induction lights used only supported flashing.

A followup study on the safety impact of a yellow bicycle jacket was done by Lahrmann, Spaabaek, Madsen & Ossman, with similar methodology. Also finding approximately ~50% reduction in multi-party crashes.

So, the existing research covers annoying people on bicycles, and covers people wearing clownsuits on bicycles.

Future research no doubt will cover annoying people wearing clownsuits on bicycles. (It is unlikely the combined effect is completely additive.)

-mr. bill
My research was focused on risk reduction for serious bicycle accidents, and neither of these turned up. I appreciate your help with directing me to interesting research, despite your ridicule of my clearly inferior research skills.
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Old 12-02-16, 10:28 AM   #98
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More lights!

In regards to the Hotshot, my preference is actually the Axiom Pulse 60. It usually gets 5+ actual runtime on flash mode, (closer to 6, actually). I have had cars actually stop me and tell me they could see it from over 1/4 mile away. At night, it's bright enough that the rear camera can read license plates. I think thats a good thing. Whenever I am out riding and I pass someone, I usually do a glance to see what they are running. Based on what I've seen from other people with the same light, I'm probably not blinding to other cyclists. The Pulse 60 is the only one I think I would trust for daytime visibility. Indeed close/punish passes seem to have noticibly decreased since I've outfitted my bikes. I never run it on steady.

For a headlight, I run a Cygolight 800. Low beam on MUP, because I am considerate of others, full-on flash mode on road. But that doesn't stop the occasional complaint. For comparison the average automibile headlight is 750 lumens on high beams...and I am flashing like a beacon. So I am not a d-bag I return it to "low" when I start seeing the road signs reflecting back at me.

Left hooks, right hooks, people pulling out in front of me has been virtually eliminated.

This combination is the only one I'll trust my kids safety to. They are deliberately, offensively bright and command drivers attention. Drivers behaviour has noticably changed to value my safety. Good.

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Old 12-02-16, 04:34 PM   #99
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Sure, but I'm not seeing a $5 blinky LED over a 6' square of hi-viz yellow, either.
Not sure who uses a 6' square of anything on the road unless they happen to have a tailwind and can use it as a sail, but yeah, I'm pretty sure the neon yellow t-shirts, hoodie and rain jacket I wear for my commute are more visible than a light in the daytime, primarily because their visible area is 50+ times as large as the lights.

Quote:
In any case, there are plenty here that argue for taking reflectors off, because in their minds they do nothing and look dorky, despite them being a safety device.
The only regular reflectors left on my bike are a Cateye on the rack and the one built into the Radbot 1000. OTOH, there's reflective tape, heat transfer reflectives, reflective sidewalls and reflective trim in lots of places on it. Tape weighs virtually nothing, is still fairly effective for side visibility even when it's trimmed down to pinstripe widths, (I prefer larger for front and rear, but a lot of that comes from cheap eBay heat transfer on my clothes.) and doesn't have to look dorky if it's done well. (I may get around to redoing mine to look a bit nicer someday as the quick-and-dirty early stuff peels off.)
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Old 12-03-16, 11:51 PM   #100
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Not sure who uses a 6' square of anything on the road unless they happen to have a tailwind and can use it as a sail, but yeah, I'm pretty sure the neon yellow t-shirts, hoodie and rain jacket I wear for my commute are more visible than a light in the daytime, primarily because their visible area is 50+ times as large as the lights.
Meh, going a rough 3'x2' for my back. Make it 4' square,heck 3' square, as you mentioned still far larger and more visible than a $5 led unit.
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