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Old 12-04-16, 07:39 AM   #101
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Meh, going a rough 3'x2' for my back. Make it 4' square,heck 3' square, as you mentioned still far larger and more visible than a $5 led unit.
You must be huge if you can fit a 3 foot square on your back.
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Old 12-04-16, 08:44 AM   #102
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This seems odd: daytime running lights (DRL) on passenger cars appear to increase the number of collisions according to this study of US crashes. The Effectiveness of Daytime Running Lights For Passenger Vehicles There was also found an adverse effect on car/motorcycle crashes when the car had DRL. Trucks and vans with DRL saw a reduction in crashes.

Certainly passenger cars are not bicycles, but the result does imply that what seems obvious on the face of it (that DRL in traffic increase visibility therefore reduce crashes) isn't necessarily sufficient for the conclusion.
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Old 12-05-16, 12:47 AM   #103
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Today, My father was yammering at me over the phone. About using a light on my helmet. This was before I went out on my ride. He knows my feeling about using a helmet light. So he was wasting his breath. The helmet lights I do have from Planet Bike, are nowhere near as bright as my USB lights from the LBS. If Planet Bike were to come out with a helmet light, that was USB-Rechargeable, I might re-think it. Until then, no way.
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Old 12-05-16, 07:24 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
This seems odd: daytime running lights (DRL) on passenger cars appear to increase the number of collisions according to this study of US crashes. The Effectiveness of Daytime Running Lights For Passenger Vehicles There was also found an adverse effect on car/motorcycle crashes when the car had DRL. Trucks and vans with DRL saw a reduction in crashes.

Certainly passenger cars are not bicycles, but the result does imply that what seems obvious on the face of it (that DRL in traffic increase visibility therefore reduce crashes) isn't necessarily sufficient for the conclusion.
Read it again.

Two-Passenger-Vehicle Crashes Excluding Rear-End Crashes (Target Two-PV Crashes)
  • ...
  • DRLs significantly reduced the LTVs’ involvement in daytime target Two-PV crashes by 5.7 percent at the 0.05 level.
  • The remaining results were not statistically significant at the 0.05 level.
  • ...

Single-Passenger-Vehicle-to-Pedestrian/Pedalcyclist Crashes (Single-PV-to-PED/CYC)
  • ...
  • None of the results were statistically significant at the 0.05 level.

Single-Passenger-Vehicle-to-Motorcycle Crashes (Single-PV-to-Motorcycle)
  • ...
  • All the results were not statistically significant.
  • ...

A *correct* summary of the report is:
  • There is little evidence from analyzing the FARS and "State data" that DRLs are effective.
  • But there is *also* little evidence from analyzing the FARS and "State data" that DRLs are ineffective.
  • And there is *also* little evidence from analyzing the FARS and the "State data" that DRLs are harmful.

Opinion follows:

FARS and "State data" are *noisy* data sets. DRLs would have to be nearly magical to see their effect in such *noisy* data sets.

Are DRLs good, bad, or neither? From looking at these *noisy* data sets, who the hell knows?

It may however be safe to conclude from this study that DRLs are not magical.

Recommendation for future work.

Dramatically improve the quality of FARS and "State data"
- OR -
Use another methodology for examining effectiveness of DRLs.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 12-05-16 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 12-05-16, 08:21 AM   #105
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Read it again.

-mr. bill
Seriously?

" A negative effectiveness suggests that DRLs might have unintended adverse effects. "

Passenger cars: Fatal Crashes -8.9

"As shown, DRLs seemed to reduce PCs’ involvement in target Two-PV injury crashes but increase its involvements in target TwoPV
fatal and all crashes
. "
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Old 12-05-16, 08:28 AM   #106
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Seriously?

" A negative effectiveness suggests that DRLs might have unintended adverse effects. "

Passenger cars: Fatal Crashes -8.9

"As shown, DRLs seemed to reduce PCs’ involvement in target Two-PV injury crashes but increase its involvements in target TwoPV
fatal and all crashes
. "
Seriously. Read it again. And again. And again.

It's full of nothing.

-mr. bill
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Old 12-05-16, 08:28 AM   #107
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You must be huge if you can fit a 3 foot square on your back.
Square foot, my bad, no idea why I went with stupid words....
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Old 12-05-16, 08:37 AM   #108
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Seriously. Read it again. And again. And again.

It's full of nothing.

-mr. bill
OK that settles it then.

For the rest of us, the study shows that at the very least, there are factors related to daytime running lights in traffic beyond the immediately apparent "make them see you". This study found that passenger vehicles experienced more crashes, more fatal crashes, when using daytime lights. There are a number of mechanisms that suggest themselves to explain it, but were not addressed.
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Old 12-05-16, 08:41 AM   #109
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I remember when auto running lights first came out.
I made one for my 58 Chevy.
Insurance companies:

Stated that Running Light Vehicles Now Had 16% LESS Accidents.
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Old 12-05-16, 08:47 AM   #110
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OK that settles it then.

For the rest of us, the study shows that at the very least, there are factors related to daytime running lights in traffic beyond the immediately apparent "make them see you". This study found that passenger vehicles experienced more crashes, more fatal crashes, when using daytime lights. There are a number of mechanisms that suggest themselves to explain it, but were not addressed.
This study did *NOT* find that.

"Boldfaced numbers are statistically significant estimates at the 0.05 level."

Any passenger vehicle numbers boldfaced?

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 12-05-16 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 12-05-16, 08:57 AM   #111
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I remember when auto running lights first came out.
I made one for my 58 Chevy.
Insurance companies:

Stated that Running Light Vehicles Now Had 16% LESS Accidents.
My VW has them and I can't turn them off if I wanted to - I think they're required in Europe. I don't lose any sleep over it either way, but I do turn on the headlights any time close to dusk. There is good reason to believe that the primary effectiveness of DRL is in lower-light conditions. Do some drivers rely on DRL instead of headlights in the high-risk almost-dark times, and have more crashes? That would be interesting to know, but it wouldn't be the fault of the lights.
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Old 12-05-16, 09:09 AM   #112
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My VW has them and I can't turn them off if I wanted to - I think they're required in Europe. I don't lose any sleep over it either way, but I do turn on the headlights any time close to dusk. There is good reason to believe that the primary effectiveness of DRL is in lower-light conditions. Do some drivers rely on DRL instead of headlights in the high-risk almost-dark times, and have more crashes? That would be interesting to know, but it wouldn't be the fault of the lights.
"Excluding Dawn and Dusk
...
All estimated effects were not statistically significant."

Left as an exercise to the reader:

Only Dawn and Dusk

All estimated effects were not statistically signifcant?

-mr.bill

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Old 12-05-16, 09:13 AM   #113
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On quality of the data:

"The police-reported real-world crash databases did not report the headlamp on-off status."

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 12-05-16 at 09:37 AM.
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Old 12-05-16, 09:55 AM   #114
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we had a van with DRL, and I liked it because I could see my wife in a line of traffic. I keep my lights on all the time, it saves me from leaving them off when it's dark. I can't imagine it causing crashes, that takes a special kind of incompetence on the part of someone. Flashing lights, otoh ...
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Old 12-06-16, 07:19 PM   #115
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OP, I would refuse to do it JUST BASED ON THE WAY YOU EXPRESSED YOUrSELF HERE.

I delineate roads a couple ways; residential streets and thoroughfares. Residential streets have only been an issue ONCE -- and I HAD lights on at the time! An alcoholic old man in a pickup missed my handlebar by (LITERALLY) less than four inches, passing me 1 mph faster than I was pedaling, on snow-slicked streets.

Thoroughfares DO get the blinky, day or night. But in my town, since only about 12 people WALK anywhere (lol), the city made it legal to ride the sidewalk. Don't remember the last time I heard of a cyclist getting hit...and only riders with limits (like I now have) have added to the sidewalk traffic.
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Old 12-07-16, 09:42 AM   #116
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Insurance companies:

Stated that Running Light Vehicles Now Had 16% LESS Accidents.
I'll stick to trusting researchers who paid attention in fifth grade English class.
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Old 12-07-16, 11:09 AM   #117
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OK that settles it then.

For the rest of us, the study shows that at the very least, there are factors related to daytime running lights in traffic beyond the immediately apparent "make them see you". This study found that passenger vehicles experienced more crashes, more fatal crashes, when using daytime lights. There are a number of mechanisms that suggest themselves to explain it, but were not addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
This study did *NOT* find that.

"Boldfaced numbers are statistically significant estimates at the 0.05 level."

Any passenger vehicle numbers boldfaced?

-mr. bill
A paper that cites the 2008 NHTSA study.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Transportation Research Synthesis, Minnesota Department of Transportation
The most recent large-scale study on this topic conducted in the United States is a 2008 NHTSA study that found that DRLs had no statistically significant effects on the types of crashes studied, except for a 5.7 percent reduction in the involvement of light trucks/vans in two-vehicle crashes. ....

In general, the issue of research methodology seems to be a critical factor in the debate over demonstrating DRLs’ effectiveness, and can make it more difficult to aggregate the results of different studies.
But of course, that doesn't settle it, does it.

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Old 12-07-16, 04:22 PM   #118
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But in daylight a hi-vis yellow or orange helmet, jersey or vest probably stands out as much as lights.
Agreed. I recently came up behind what I thought was one cyclist with no lights but wearing hi-viz yellow. I could see him from a loooooong way back. It wasn't until I got real close that I saw the second ninja cyclist.
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Old 12-17-16, 11:40 PM   #119
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Always

I always use at least one flashing light on the front and rear.


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Originally Posted by Cutawooda View Post
I've over-stayed my welcome on this subject with my immediate friends, family and fellow rider, but I'm still not satisfied with the answer because frankly, ...I haven't been given and answer. The question is: why would you ride a bike on the road in the daylight without at least having a rear flashing tail light? For the record, I have front and back lights. I want to live.
Recently went to DALLAS to ride a group ride and I was shocked and disappointed how few had rear lights. Out of 50 cyclists only about 5 of us were lit.
Even in my group of friends riding, who know how adamant I am about cyclists being lit up, refuse to use them.
My speech is that most drivers DONT want to hit you and want to avoid that kind of tragedy as much as the cyclist, so why not help the driver out as much as you can with a $5.00 light.
So I wanna ask you guys. What is the stigma of using lights on your bike?. Is it that uncool to put a light on? Frankly, I think it's just plain pride that governs their decision, but maybe you can tell me a legit reason that I'm an aware of.
Thanks in advance
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Old 12-26-16, 02:43 PM   #120
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Old 12-26-16, 07:46 PM   #121
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I have read enough posts to see the fatal flaw in the thinking of the majority of you: you assume incorrectly that your responsibility for your life ends at equipping yourself and/or your bike with enough, or more than enough, visible enhancement devices to ensure that other drivers see you. What if they see you but still pull a jack move on you?! Then what? Are you going to plow into the side of the rude, inconsiderate, SOB who SAW YOU, but turned left in front of you nonetheless? Yeah, he was wrong to do that... and? Who is going to be carried off to Good Samaritan on a spine board if you failed to execute proper defensive riding technique?

I watch drivers in Portland pull all kinds of flagrantly aggressive and offensive maneuvers on each other, both on the freeways and interstates, and in stop and go urban traffic. They see each other just fine. I have no doubt that the statistics about daytime running lights not making any improvement in fatality stats are true.

I am more than capable of monitoring the 180* that are in front of me! I don't need an 800 lumen headlight be it steady or flashing to inform drivers that I am coming toward them. It is not going to alter their behavior for the better, and if I blithely cruise into a collision with a driver because s/he should have had no trouble seeing me... ... well that would be on me. So I save a lot of precious battery run time by not using daytime lights that do not make any significant contribution to my safety.

I happen to think that "right turn on red" laws significantly impact the safety of all road users but especially that of pedestrians and cyclists. There should not be ANY city that allows drivers to make a right turn on a red signal for any reason. I'm serious. Having lived most of my life in NYC where RTOR is prohibited inside the city limits I am able to compare the environment that that creates to the one I live in now where RTOR is allowed, even in the densest inner city areas. It amounts to open season on anyone in an intersection. It simply should not be allowed. Period.
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Old 12-26-16, 07:49 PM   #122
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I have read enough posts to see the fatal flaw in the thinking of the majority of you: you assume incorrectly that your responsibility for your life ends at equipping yourself and/or your bike with enough, or more than enough, visible enhancement devices to ensure that other drivers see you. What if they see you but still pull a jack move on you?! Then what? Are you going to plow into the side of the rude, inconsiderate, SOB who SAW YOU, but turned left in front of you nonetheless? Yeah, he was wrong to do that... and? Who is going to be carried off to Good Samaritan on a spine board if you failed to execute proper defensive riding technique?

I watch drivers in Portland pull all kinds of flagrantly aggressive and offensive maneuvers on each other, both on the freeways and interstates, and in stop and go urban traffic. They see each other just fine. I have no doubt that the statistics about daytime running lights not making any improvement in fatality stats are true.

I am more than capable of monitoring the 180* that are in front of me! I don't need an 800 lumen headlight be it steady or flashing to inform drivers that I am coming toward them. It is not going to alter their behavior for the better, and if I blithely cruise into a collision with a driver because s/he should have had no trouble seeing me... ... well that would be on me. So I save a lot of precious battery run time by not using daytime lights that do not make any significant contribution to my safety.

I happen to think that "right turn on red" laws significantly impact the safety of all road users but especially that of pedestrians and cyclists. There should not be ANY city that allows drivers to make a right turn on a red signal for any reason. I'm serious. Having lived most of my life in NYC where RTOR is prohibited inside the city limits I am able to compare the environment that that creates to the one I live in now where RTOR is allowed, even in the densest inner city areas. It amounts to open season on anyone in an intersection. It simply should not be allowed. Period.
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Old 12-26-16, 08:08 PM   #123
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I have read enough posts to see the fatal flaw in the thinking of the majority of you: you assume incorrectly that your responsibility for your life ends at equipping yourself ......
+1/2

I agree with you that it's an error to let "things" drive you safety bus. It seems to be an American thing, or maybe it's spread worldwide. Anyway, we all talk about lights, helmets, mirrors, etc. which are OK as far as they go. But they simply don't go far enough, and I prefer to place my faith in awareness and training.

I don't know if there's any data collected related to bike accidents, but in other sports and endeavors, there's solid evidence that there's an experience based divide in accident rates. You wouldn't see this if safety depended on the actions of others, or any external set of variables.

So go ahead and use DRLs if you prefer, but don't forget that it's not only about drivers seeing you. It's also about you seeing them and reacting correctly.

Meanwhile, I only gave you a 1/2 because I'm not convinced that right on red is more dangerous. In the old scheme, drivers are turning at the same time that pedestrians on a parallel course are crossing. In cities like NY there's a steady stream and drivers feel pressure (from within) to insert themselves into this stream. By opening the right on red window, it creates more opportunities for drivers, and the pressure to force oneself into the crossing stream of pedestrians is lessened somewhat.

NYC doesn't have right on red, but it does seem to be working in the surrounding area.
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Old 12-26-16, 08:42 PM   #124
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I have read enough posts to see the fatal flaw in the thinking of the majority of you: you assume incorrectly that your responsibility for your life ends at equipping yourself and/or your bike with enough, or more than enough, visible enhancement devices to ensure that other drivers see you.
I don't think the majority of riders assume anything of the sort.
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Old 12-27-16, 07:12 AM   #125
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that is certainly the most absurd thesis ever written on this forum.
But any time a judgment includes the word "you" and purports to tell others what "you" think, count on it coming from a narcissist.

There is no reason to give up any safety edge that helps to alert motorists to your presence, or pedestrians to your presence (bike bell).
A civilian cyclist giving up a safety edge is far worse than a racing cyclist giving up a performance edge.
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