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Old 12-27-16, 08:01 AM   #126
mr_bill
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
But they simply don't go far enough, and I prefer to place my faith in awareness and training.
Because putting a light on your bicycle obliterates your awareness and training?

See and Be Seen. It's trivial to do both. (But assume you didn't see something, and assume you aren't seen.)

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Meanwhile, I only gave you a 1/2 because I'm not convinced that right on red is more dangerous.
Episode 1: the right-turn-on-red story.

You, and many others, ESPECIALLY IN A&S, might conclude that since so many studies have the words "not statistically significant", that right on red is not significantly more dangerous. And you would be incorrect.

The most commonly cited widely available paper "proving" that RTOR is not more dangerous is Accident Experience With Right Turn on Red (1977). All the authors concluded was that the data was "not statistically significant." That's *NOT* what too many people concluded. (The other widely cited report is an AASHTO task force report from 1979 - available on paper. Also published "not statistically significant" results.)

It didn't take long for there to be sufficient data, so it was LONG ago established that pedestrians and bicyclists fare worse around drivers at RTOR intersections - The Effect of Right-Turn-On-Red on Pedestrian and Bicyclist Accidents (1981) . Oopsies.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 12-27-16 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 12-27-16, 08:10 AM   #127
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Because putting a light on your bicycle obliterates your awareness and training?

See and Be Seen. It's trivial to do both. (But assume you aren't seen, and assume you haven't seen something.)



Episode 1: the right-turn-on-red story.

You, and many others, ESPECIALLY IN A&S, might conclude that since so many studies have the words "not statistically significant", that right on red is not significantly more dangerous. And you would be incorrect.

The most commonly cited widely available paper "proving" that RTOR is not more dangerous is Accident Experience With Right Turn on Red (1977). All the author's concluded was that there was insufficient data. That's *NOT* what too many people concluded. (The other widely cited report is an AASHTO task force report from 1979 - available on paper.)

It didn't take long for there to be sufficient data, so it was LONG ago established that RTOR is dangerous for pedestrians and bicyclists (1981) . Oopsies.

-mr. bill
BTW doesn't that 1981 report really conclude that CARS (yes, drivers) doing RTOR are what are too dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. And if we are really serious, isn't it CARS (yes, drivers) that generally make roads dangerous? I mean after all, it isn't cyclist nor peds out there killing some 35,000+ folks on the roads... right?

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Old 12-27-16, 08:21 AM   #128
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BTW doesn't that 1981 report really conclude that CARS (yes, drivers) doing RTOR are what are too dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists. And if we are really serious, isn't it CARS (yes, drivers) that generally make roads dangerous? I mean after all, it isn't cyclist nor peds out there killing some 35,000+ folks on the roads... right?

Fixed it.

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Old 12-27-16, 08:30 AM   #129
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Fixed it.

-mr. bill
I thought this wording was interesting...

A major purpose of this project was to examine the effects of the Western
Right-Turn--On-Red (RTOR) law upon pedestrian and bicyclist accidents at
signalized locations. As indicated in the report there is a small,
well-defined accident problem in both areas.


in light of this:
Quote:
  • As a percentage of-all pedestrian accidents, right-turning accidents at signalized locations went from 1.47% (before RTOR implementation) to 2.28% (after implementation), a 55% increase.
  • As a percentage of all bicyclist accidents, right-turning accidents at signalized locations went from 1.40% (before implementation) to 2.79% (after. Implementation), a 99% increase.
Yeah, just a "small problem..."

Last edited by genec; 12-27-16 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 12-27-16, 10:53 AM   #130
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OP was done # 3 of 3, at the 28th post.
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Old 12-27-16, 06:57 PM   #131
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No surprise on that right turn on red problem for anyone who's old enough to remember walking in cities before and since RTOR was widely adopted. Busy intersections may be the most dangerous place for pedestrians. It's often safer to "jaywalk" (a pejorative term concocted by pro-automobile, anti-pedestrian propagandists decades ago).

A better option to encourage pedestrians -- particularly older and/or disabled folks on canes, walkers and wheelchairs -- to cross safely would be to locate on-demand, quick response light crosswalks that are nowhere near intersections. No excuses for drivers looking anywhere but straight ahead with their attention on the pedestrian crossing signal. Unfortunately the very few places I can think of where these are used are in school zones.

Good start, but not enough. And RTOR should be eliminated in some busy urban areas where cities are developing pedestrian and cycle friendly infrastructure.

However it would be difficult to change the behaviors of drivers who've become widely accustomed to turning right on red, regardless of whether it's actually permitted. Some of our intersections permit left turn on red at all-one-way intersections. Some don't. I've seen drivers honking impatiently at drivers who stop and wait in the left lane at red lights where no left turn on red is permitted. I've *been* honked at while taking the leftmost lane on a bike and waiting for the green light where no left on red is permitted -- but it's safer to take the lane than hug the curb. So there's a tendency to elevate expectations to the point that stop lights serve no purpose in turn lanes.
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Old 12-28-16, 10:19 AM   #132
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A better option to encourage pedestrians -- particularly older and/or disabled folks on canes, walkers and wheelchairs -- to cross safely would be to locate on-demand, quick response light crosswalks that are nowhere near intersections. No excuses for drivers looking anywhere but straight ahead with their attention on the pedestrian crossing signal.
Not really; drivers aren't looking for a red light mid-block without even a driveway entrance there. I've been surprised by a couple of these, mostly when I was already watching the next intersection's light.
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Old 12-28-16, 11:48 AM   #133
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if they dont look they wont see, the end
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Old 12-28-16, 11:49 AM   #134
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Not really; drivers aren't looking for a red light mid-block without even a driveway entrance there. I've been surprised by a couple of these, mostly when I was already watching the next intersection's light.
populair in the uk and ppl just blast tru
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Old 12-28-16, 12:23 PM   #135
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if they dont look they wont see, the end
Mic drop.

You could have a tail light as bright AS THE SUN, and even at night, some fool texting and driving won't see it.

I have a bright blinky tail light because the majority of drivers DO look out the windshield, and I want to be seen -- not "felt". I have a bright headlight SO I CAN SEE. It's just a bit of personal entertainment value when a driver "brights" me (happened last night, lol).
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Old 12-28-16, 12:58 PM   #136
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A better option to encourage pedestrians -- particularly older and/or disabled folks on canes, walkers and wheelchairs -- to cross safely would be to locate on-demand, quick response light crosswalks that are nowhere near intersections. No excuses for drivers looking anywhere but straight ahead with their attention on the pedestrian crossing signal. Unfortunately the very few places I can think of where these are used are in school zones.
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Not really; drivers aren't looking for a red light mid-block without even a driveway entrance there. I've been surprised by a couple of these, mostly when I was already watching the next intersection's light.
Uh, W 57th St, W 56th St, W 55th St, W 54th St, W 53rd St, W 52nd St (way to go parking in the crosswalk!), and W 51st St.

It's called "6 1/2 Avenue."

But no, absolutely do NOT prevent pedestrians from crossing at crosswalks at intersections and force them to cross midblock. People driving cars and people driving trucks should STOP hurting people on foot.

ps. Right Turn on Red is not permitted in NYC unless posted. It essentially doesn't exist in Manhattan.

-mr. bill
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Old 12-28-16, 01:17 PM   #137
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There are a number of these mid-block crossings popping up here in Portland. Unfortunately they flash amber and do not have the force of a flashing red. They are hard to miss when activated though. Pedestrians are cautioned by a recorded warning that "the walk sign is on, please use caution when crossing, vehicles may not stop". This still does not prevent people from whacking the button and stepping into the crosswalk in the same motion! Defensive walking is as important as defensive driving (or riding).
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Old 12-28-16, 01:17 PM   #138
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Uh, W 57th St, W 56th St, W 55th St, W 54th St, W 53rd St, W 52nd St (way to go parking in the crosswalk!), and W 51st St.

It's called "6 1/2 Avenue."

But no, absolutely do NOT prevent pedestrians from crossing at crosswalks at intersections and force them to cross midblock. People driving cars and people driving trucks should STOP hurting people on foot.

ps. Right Turn on Red is not permitted in NYC unless posted. It essentially doesn't exist in Manhattan.

-mr. bill
And a brand new one on 53rd between 5th and 6th next to MOMA, with an actual traffic light like the one on 57th street.
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Old 12-28-16, 04:50 PM   #139
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I agree with you that it's an error to let "things" drive you safety bus. It seems to be an American thing, or maybe it's spread worldwide. Anyway, we all talk about lights, helmets, mirrors, etc. which are OK as far as they go. But they simply don't go far enough, and I prefer to place my faith in awareness and training.
I agree, mirrors, one of the things people regard as a big safety feature are often relied on too much. They say no, but they don't say yes. But lights are another matter, a good headlight and tail light are definite safety features that awareness can't match.
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Old 12-28-16, 08:24 PM   #140
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I find that I see cyclists during the day before I see their lights.
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Old 12-29-16, 08:25 AM   #141
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And a brand new one on 53rd between 5th and 6th next to MOMA, with an actual traffic light like the one on 57th street.

Native New Yorkers hate it when I call Lexington Avenue, Park Avenue, and Madison Avenue 3rd and 1/2 Avenue, 4th Avenue, and 4th and 1/2 Avenue.

Oddly they hate it even more when I call 6th Avenue Avenue of the Americas.

-mr. bill
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Old 01-01-17, 08:10 PM   #142
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Not sure why someone would not want to use lights on their bike.

I live in Florida, possibly the world capital for "distracted" drivers. If I could find a shirt with bright strobes attatched I would buy it in a heartbeat.

Probably one of the most popular vehicles here which is most likely to hit a bike would be a pick up truck hauling a trailer with either lawn or construction equipment. Never fails. You read about at least 3 accidents here per week involving a pick up truck with a trailer hitting a bike rider.

Would a bike light help that pick up driver drive any better? Probably not. However, at least he would be able to see you at a distance (especially if you have a bright, blinking red light).

Why do some people choose not to use lights on their bikes? Who knows. They are probably the same people who ride with dark clothing, no helmets, against traffic, etc.
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Old 01-04-17, 08:20 AM   #143
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Spot the cyclist, CB HI edition:



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Old 01-05-17, 08:32 PM   #144
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How did you all do?



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Old 01-06-17, 01:00 PM   #145
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How did you all do?

Unless you're on rocket assist, that's still plenty of room to plan and execute a totally uneventful avoidance. I'm far more concerned about the ones who manage to get within a few yards before you can see them. Even in the first pic there's clearly something there, so rough planning would have started at that point.
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Old 01-06-17, 01:37 PM   #146
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Unless you have a very good reason to deviate from it, the laws governing road conduct in the United States say to keep right! That goes double for bicycles. Day or night, if you are to the right of a road and an oncoming vehicle is also to its right... ... where is the NEED to be lit up like a UFO from "Close Encounters of the Third Kind"? If you are following FRAP protocols a rear flasher becomes a largely informative piece of equipment, not an essential, life-saving piece of equipment. Why is a front flashing strobe in the daytime of such a high priority? Hey, if you already have one... I dunno... but I wouldn't move heaven and earth to acquire one. Sometimes you get home in time to charge your battery pack for the ride out the next day and... sometimes you don't... aren't you glad you didn't waste 30 minutes of runtime lighting up the afternoon when you have to miss a charging session? I am.

You hit a pothole and it knocks your rear flasher off... that's why you never made it home... or is that true. I can't count how many times I've gone out without lights at night. Countless. I mean... I rode for decades before lights were even invented! Lets not overstate their importance shall we not? I get that you might think that lights are an essential safety tool but... you are talking to someone who has been without lights, mirrors, horns or even a helmet, for probably more years than you have been alive.

I have a lot of perspective on safety, and from that perspective it is informed upon me that safety is more about what you do, and how you do it, than what you have on your bike or what you wear. A ninja cyclist that rides like it, is a lot safer than a rolling light show that cruises in the middle of the traffic stream, or fails to yield, and promptly so, when cut off, right hooked or otherwise compromised.
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Old 01-06-17, 01:50 PM   #147
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Unless you're on rocket assist, that's still plenty of room to plan and execute a totally uneventful avoidance. I'm far more concerned about the ones who manage to get within a few yards before you can see them. Even in the first pic there's clearly something there, so rough planning would have started at that point.
Objects are closer than they appear.

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Old 01-06-17, 01:53 PM   #148
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I rode for decades before lights were even invented!
Goodness. We need a One Hundred Plus (100+) forum!

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Old 01-06-17, 02:06 PM   #149
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