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Old 12-16-16, 05:51 AM   #26
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My practice is to generally follow the Idaho law anyway. I think there are some political ramifications, despite the reality that it is best for all. Some car driver will scream bloody murder about bicyclists getting preferential treatment. I also take some issue with the thinking that because everyone is doing it we might as well make it legal. That's what has lead to generaly ignoring of speed limits and other traffic laws, IMHO
I don't see the Idaho stop law as giving cyclists preferential treatment. How do you see it as preferential treatment?

If one does it in a way that forces others to yield, than yes that would be preferential treatment, but that's not how it's suppose to work.
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Old 12-16-16, 09:08 AM   #27
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Generally, roll stop signs when it's clear, stop at lights, with the exception of making a shoulder-to-shoulder right on red where I won't be crossing any traffic anyway. I've done that one in front of cops at least twice this week with no issues.
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Old 12-16-16, 09:29 AM   #28
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So which is fake, the news or your post. Uber seems to imply in the same article, that the car was self-driving and the person monitoring the car failed to prevent it.
Interesting, I read it as the car was self driving and was under control of a human at the time of the incident.
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Old 12-16-16, 11:23 AM   #29
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I don't see the Idaho stop law as giving cyclists preferential treatment. How do you see it as preferential treatment?

If one does it in a way that forces others to yield, than yes that would be preferential treatment, but that's not how it's suppose to work.
If some vehicles must stop and other do not then those who are forced to stop will claim that the ones who need only yield as appropriate will cry foul. Otherwise known as some drivers look for any excuse to ***** and moan about bicycles.
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Old 12-16-16, 11:49 AM   #30
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Generally, roll stop signs when it's clear, stop at lights, with the exception of making a shoulder-to-shoulder right on red where I won't be crossing any traffic anyway. I've done that one in front of cops at least twice this week with no issues.
Lots of riders do this. The article is about codifying this perfectly safe and reasonable practice.
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Old 12-16-16, 01:06 PM   #31
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Old 12-16-16, 01:16 PM   #32
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If some vehicles must stop and other do not then those who are forced to stop will claim that the ones who need only yield as appropriate will cry foul. Otherwise known as some drivers look for any excuse to ***** and moan about bicycles.
Yes, with the emphasis on SOME. Drivers are no different from cyclists. The vast bulk simply want to get to their destinations safely and expeditiously. Most drivers don't care either way about cyclists, and their main concern is related to delays, and the fear that they might get involved in an accident with one. The same applies to the great majority of cyclists.

However, just as with cyclists (as evidenced by this forum) there are some who loathe cyclists for whatever reason, and will look for any excuse to justify that hatred.

So, while Idaho Stop, may inflame drivers who already hate cyclists, it won't change the number that do.

Of course, if one is concerned about driver reaction, it might make sense to survey driver attitudes about cyclists in various states including Idaho and see if there's any difference (either way).
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Old 12-16-16, 01:25 PM   #33
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right on red seemed to work ok for cars. it's still kind of a judgement call tho. places a lot of trust in the drivers & this would do the same with bikers. I doubt cagers will like it
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Old 12-16-16, 01:29 PM   #34
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Takes longer for a bicycle to get through an intersection from a dead stop than from a rolling start. For a slow rider it's quite a bit longer. More reasonable drivers see the Idaho Stop as doing them a favor.

Intersections are among our most dangerous places. It is safer for us to limit our exposure by not lingering there, even if it means rolling stops and annoying the less than reasonable of the drivers.
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Old 12-16-16, 03:40 PM   #35
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Generally, roll stop signs when it's clear, stop at lights, with the exception of making a shoulder-to-shoulder right on red where I won't be crossing any traffic anyway. I've done that one in front of cops at least twice this week with no issues.
Agreed, but you never know if a particular officer will feel differently. Last Tuesday a couple of us were pulled over for rolling through a stop sign. He even acknowledged that we had slowed and checked to see that there was no cross traffic. Fortunately he let us go with a verbal warning, but others have been given $375 citations. Adopting the Idaho rules would avoid that kind of inconsistent treatment of cyclists.
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Old 12-17-16, 07:00 AM   #36
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If some vehicles must stop and other do not then those who are forced to stop will claim that the ones who need only yield as appropriate will cry foul. Otherwise known as some drivers look for any excuse to ***** and moan about bicycles.
I don't think motorists will even take notice, unless cyclists don't practice the law properly and end up forcing motorists to yield to them as a common practice at all stop signs.
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Old 12-17-16, 08:00 AM   #37
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So which is fake, the news or your post. Uber seems to imply in the same article, that the car was self-driving and the person monitoring the car failed to prevent it.
In later articles, Uber admits it is the humans driving that were at fault, and they were suspended.

Quote:
An Uber spokesperson said two red-light violations were due to mistakes by the people required to sit behind the steering wheel and said the company has suspended the drivers.
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-san-francisco
Quote:
An Uber spokesperson said both cars running red lights were not part of the pilot and were not carrying customers.

“These incidents were due to human error. This is why we believe so much in making the roads safer by building self-driving Ubers,” the statement said. “The drivers involved have been suspended while we continue to investigate.”

The company did not immediately respond to questions about the state’s order to remove the cars from the road.

It’s unclear how law enforcement may address these kinds of violations.
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Old 12-17-16, 10:01 AM   #38
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I don't think motorists will even take notice, unless cyclists don't practice the law properly and end up forcing motorists to yield to them as a common practice at all stop signs.
You may be right, but some motorists sure seem to notice now when cyclists run stop signs or red lights.
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Old 12-17-16, 03:38 PM   #39
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In later articles, Uber admits it is the humans driving that were at fault, and they were suspended.
Pure double talk from Uber which makes me believe even more the cars were under auto and the drivers failed to prevent the car from running the red lights.

Quote:
An Uber spokesperson said two red-light violations were due to mistakes by the people required to sit behind the steering wheel and said the company has suspended the drivers.



An Uber spokesperson said both cars running red lights were not part of the pilot and were not carrying customers.

“These incidents were due to human error. This is why we believe so much in making the roads safer by building self-driving Ubers,” the statement said. “The drivers involved have been suspended while we continue to investigate.

The company did not immediately respond to questions about the state’s order to remove the cars from the road.

It’s unclear how law enforcement may address these kinds of violations.
If Uber knows that the cars were not in auto and that the drivers were actually driving and ran the red lights, then why would Uber still need to "continue to investigate"?

They are still investigating because they need to find out why the auto mode ran the red lights.
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Old 12-18-16, 01:16 PM   #40
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Pure double talk from Uber which makes me believe even more the cars were under auto and the drivers failed to prevent the car from running the red lights.

If Uber knows that the cars were not in auto and that the drivers were actually driving and ran the red lights, then why would Uber still need to "continue to investigate"?

They are still investigating because they need to find out why the auto mode ran the red lights.
They are probably asking "why" the cars were not being used in auto mode... while they also have to refute questions like yours from both the public and the state...

The only way to know for sure is to download any recorded data from the cars, and likely Uber does not have such staff on hand and must rely on the car company for full diagnostic inspection.

Some tech probably knows the truth, but all that is going to have to wait for "the official report."
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Old 12-18-16, 06:10 PM   #41
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I don't "always" or "never" anything. Every scenario is unique and I try to respond appropriately.

I briefly track stand at most stop signs. In the school zones I'll dab a foot down as well -- seems like a reasonable thing to do if we're going to expect drivers to be extra cautious in school zones.

But I'll carefully roll through some stop signs. Particularly when turning, or on steep downhill or uphill intersection stop signs, when cars are behind me. Most of the times I've been struck on a bicycle and motorcycle were from behind at stop sign intersections. But if there's no traffic behind me and I see cars approaching from opposite me, or either side, I'll usually stop or track stand because I've seen too many cars blow through stop signs across my path, or turn left across me.

I stop at most red lights. If I know the light won't change for cyclists I'll proceed after checking traffic. At lights where I know the pattern is predictable and a reasonable length I'll wait. There are a couple of areas where I'll roll through red lights at night because these are risky neighborhoods and the lights are at underpasses where there are too many hidey holes for muggers.

I always expect the worst. That way I'm usually pleasantly surprised when mosts drivers defer to me rather than trying to pancake me.
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Old 12-18-16, 08:06 PM   #42
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You may be right, but some motorists sure seem to notice now when cyclists run stop signs or red lights.
Almost every day in fair weather I have to brake hard or take evasive action in order not to run down some scofflaw bicyclist who blasts through a stop sign or red light with nary a look to see if the way is clear. Those cyclists seem to expect everyone else to stop for them. There are times when I'm tempted to plow into them and just say that I couldn't avoid them. That seems to be the problem with slowing but not stopping at red lights or stop signs, they get away with it for a while and then they decide they don't need to slow down at all.

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Old 12-19-16, 08:41 AM   #43
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The other side of the Idaho Stop coin is that it should put the responsibility to avoid most accidents in intersections on the shoulders of the cyclist. If a cyclist gets hit then he obviously didn't yield the intersection to cars coming the other way.
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Old 12-19-16, 10:31 AM   #44
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The other side of the Idaho Stop coin is that it should put the responsibility to avoid most accidents in intersections on the shoulders of the cyclist. If a cyclist gets hit then he obviously didn't yield the intersection to cars coming the other way.
That doesn't change anything, since a stop includes the need to yield.
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Old 01-01-17, 01:38 PM   #45
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Sneaking up on 58 years in this country, and that's given me a perspective. Not always positive.

A "1970's solution" WILL NOT WORK now, because when I was riding in the 1970's, drivers respected cyclists' place on the road. I NEVER got buzzed, and only honked at ONCE. Got more than that LAST WEEK.

Our society has degenerated -- there is a CONSTANT, STRIDENT call about our "rights", whenever ANY necessity (real or imagined) so much as trims a figurative fingernail. Sad that I never hear any discussion about the attendant responsibilities that go with those rights...or the idea that the failure to shoulder those responsibilities leads to loss or limitation OF those rights.

I read somewhere once that fewer laws inevitably lead to more laws -- nature of the human beast, an overreaction to an overreach in the other direction. Saw it in the 1980's.

What will, IMO, remedy A LOT of this is EDUCATION -- but there are far too many morons out there who decided at about age 12 that they know all they need to know, and stop learning.

<steps off soapbox...>

Job one for a bike rider is to get from A to B without getting clobbered, whether by vehicle, falling tree, angry dog, angry pedestrian, or rogue mailbox. Situational awareness prevents a great deal of that...and situational awareness inside vehicles does a LOT MORE.

But we ALL need to practice it. Idaho stops, statistically anyway, seem safer and more conducive to travel. But the human animal is selfish and fickle enough to make ANY or ALL of it dangerous.

It takes work, and we ALL gotta wanna do it.
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Old 01-01-17, 02:10 PM   #46
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A "1970's solution" WILL NOT WORK now, because when I was riding in the 1970's, drivers respected cyclists' place on the road. I NEVER got buzzed, and only honked at ONCE. Got more than that LAST WEEK.
ties into:
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Idaho stops, statistically anyway, seem safer and more conducive to travel.
For me, I see the Idaho Stop even more important to cyclist safety today than it was in 1970.

Maybe you are saying the same thing I just wrote, or maybe not.
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Old 01-01-17, 02:15 PM   #47
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It is not clear how your:

ties into:


For me, I see the Idaho Stop even more important to cyclist safety today than it was in 1970.

Maybe you are saying the same thing I just wrote, or maybe not.
Pretty much, I was -- I agree with you on that, just a separate point of view. Standing a couple feet to one side, as it were.

BTW -- didn't I read earlier that the Idaho Stop law was put in place in '82? Doesn't directly apply to the 70's, in that case.
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Old 01-01-17, 02:54 PM   #48
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Pretty much, I was -- I agree with you on that, just a separate point of view. Standing a couple feet to one side, as it were.

BTW -- didn't I read earlier that the Idaho Stop law was put in place in '82? Doesn't directly apply to the 70's, in that case.
I think many of us were doing Idaho Stops long before it became law in Idaho. The law just gave it a name for us to use, conformed to what we already were doing and gave us proof that what we were doing was in fact safer.
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Old 01-01-17, 03:50 PM   #49
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I think many of us were doing Idaho Stops long before it became law in Idaho. The law just gave it a name for us to use, conformed to what we already were doing and gave us proof that what we were doing was in fact safer.
Likely so...especially since the right turn on red became law in the 70's.
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Old 01-02-17, 11:23 AM   #50
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Stop at all stop lights and stop signs!!! It is the law!!! I am sick of cyclists' whining about having to stop at traffic lights' and stop signs!!! When i was 25yrs.-old, i was working full-time for the u.s. Government, and going to night school four nights a week!!! The teachers' assistant in my class was a few months younger than me!!! One weekend he was proceeding a four-way multi-lane intersection!!!!! When someone blew through the red light hitting the teachers' assistant broad side!!! Killing the teachers' assistant instantly!!!! The teachers' assistant was obeying the law!! The other driver wasn't!!!! But if you want to put a rush on getting to a funeral home in a casket!!!! Then you go right ahead and break the law!!!
That's why you always need to keep your head on a swivel and check side streets for oncoming traffic. I always slow down considerably at stop signs, may not always come to a complete stop, but I'm looking back & forth several times to make sure nobody's coming before I proceed through.
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