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Old 01-11-17, 03:04 PM   #26
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The reparations are handled in a civil trial, and unlike a child welfare payment the debt can continue for your lifespan, and is very difficult to bankrupt out of. So the mechanism is in place, and at a much lower standard of guilt than anything in a criminal case.
This is not always true. Settlements in criminal cases can provide cash reparations.

Plea agreement leads to $150,000 contribution for crime victims | KHON2
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Old 01-11-17, 03:12 PM   #27
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OK I will clarify, I would prefer funds go to specific victims of the crime. Your plea deal is a totally different kind of case, where the criminal was a corporation not an individual. Having been involved in similar cases to what you cited, those are negotiated agreements so the company can say they are helping crime victims, rather than a general fund crime. Which victims may be specified or not depending on the nature of the crime and the prosecutor and judge. Also, the fine may be in lieu of other penalties such as jail time.

However I have no wish to argue about it, you think your way I'll think mine and never the twain shall meet.
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Old 01-11-17, 05:59 PM   #28
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Quite apart from the duration of the sentence, it seems society would be best served if the guy never was allowed to drive a car again. If he has to walk, bike or take the bus for the rest of his life as a consequence, it serves several functions (example, deterrent, prevention of reoccurance).
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Old 01-11-17, 06:19 PM   #29
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Quite apart from the duration of the sentence, it seems society would be best served if the guy never was allowed to drive a car again. ....
Never is a long time. The impact of this will also depend on where. In some areas it might make life near impossible, whereas in NYC the impact would be low and the sentence reasonable.

Be clear, I'm not talking about not taking away or restricting the license at all, just trying to balance the intent with the impact. In this case, were I the judge, I'd consider how critical the car was, based on location, work and family circumstances, then either suspend or highly restrict, ie to work and back only, for the duration of the probation. Get caught behind the wheel and probation is revoked and off to jail for the duration.

BTW - I have a friend who's a criminal court judge. He HATES cases like this because it's so hard to know what's right.
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Old 01-11-17, 07:45 PM   #30
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Woman sentenced for deadly Hwy 6 crash; jury hung on manslaughte - KPTV - FOX 12
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Old 01-11-17, 07:55 PM   #31
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O.K. she is having to pay some court determined restitution to the victims family - that is great! Wonder if that removes their right to seek further damages?It's now clear to me some cases this does happen w/o the need for additional civil proceedings. I am good with that.

Does anyone have any details on which States allow restitution, limits on recoveries and such?
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Old 01-12-17, 01:39 AM   #32
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Never is a long time. The impact of this will also depend on where. In some areas it might make life near impossible, whereas in NYC the impact would be low and the sentence reasonable.

Be clear, I'm not talking about not taking away or restricting the license at all, just trying to balance the intent with the impact. In this case, were I the judge, I'd consider how critical the car was, based on location, work and family circumstances, then either suspend or highly restrict, ie to work and back only, for the duration of the probation. Get caught behind the wheel and probation is revoked and off to jail for the duration.

BTW - I have a friend who's a criminal court judge. He HATES cases like this because it's so hard to know what's right.
Being dead is a long time too. Consider the victim and family, they are FOREVER with out her.

Taking away someone's driving PRIVILEGE is pretty minor, compared to being dead. This guy was also caught speeding twice, once 30 mph over, after he killed the cyclist... I really don't believe he is someone we want to share the road with... he is another crash waiting to happen.
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Old 01-12-17, 02:15 AM   #33
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O.K. she is having to pay some court determined restitution to the victims family - that is great! Wonder if that removes their right to seek further damages?It's now clear to me some cases this does happen w/o the need for additional civil proceedings. I am good with that.

Does anyone have any details on which States allow restitution, limits on recoveries and such?
I seriously doubt that she could find $200 if her life depended on it. Going forward, as America's middle class slides into total insolvency, it will be difficult, if not impossible, to enforce large financial judgements. The only effective deterrent towards the current reckless, aggressive and rage filled driving culture in America, will be stiffly enforced lengthy revocations and/or jail terms for drivers found guilty of causing serious injury or death to others.
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Old 01-12-17, 02:45 AM   #34
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Taking away someone's driving PRIVILEGE is pretty minor, compared to being dead. This guy was also caught speeding twice, once 30 mph over, after he killed the cyclist... I really don't believe he is someone we want to share the road with... he is another crash waiting to happen.
Hawaii makes it easy to look up driving tickets and court outcome of the drivers here, using name or a plate #. A very large number of drivers who pass close, honk and harass me have significant records. One guy still had three outstanding arrest warrants out on him.
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Old 01-12-17, 01:47 PM   #35
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Hawaii makes it easy to look up driving tickets and court outcome of the drivers here, using name or a plate #. A very large number of drivers who pass close, honk and harass me have significant records. One guy still had three outstanding arrest warrants out on him.
That's why the news of the judge NOT allowing the two new tickets to come into play doesn't make a lot of sense... this guy was just showing what a doosh driver he was... what his bad habits can lead to, and yet this judge chose to ignore this pattern.
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Old 01-12-17, 01:51 PM   #36
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I don't understand stories like this. They confuse me to such a deep extent.

I am a safe driver, but these signs (below) definitely communicate to me that even if I'm a selfish bastard and have no regard for human life, there will be firm consequences if I accidentally hit a construction worker with my car.

Enough with the public service ads and pro-cycling marketing/propoganda. How about signs (i.e. clearly communicated laws) that say "Hit A Cyclist, $10k fine, 14 Years in Jail, and Lose your License" ?

It just seems so simple and fair to me. That's all I'm sayin'.
complaining over

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Old 01-12-17, 03:54 PM   #37
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Couple details:

- Rider (RIP) is said to have swerved left into the lane. As another said, could be SWSS, but if true it could be that she was trying to be a safe rider, discourage the pass, and Take the Lane.

- Driver received a ticket after this accident for 84 in a 55 zone. What are the chances he was doing the speed limit when attempting to pass the cyclist...? Not to mention, in most states 30 mph over the speed limit is criminal speeding a misdemeanor and cop has discretion to also cite for reckless endangerment or similar. Whenever I see that someone was ticketed for 29mph over the speed limit, I always assume that the cop was giving him some kind of break, in this case, a break he certainly did not deserve. Criminal speeding might certainly have weighed differently at the sentencing hearing.

Sad case, but for those who doubt the severity of the sentencing, 60 days in jail is not an easy thing. 3 years probation, is limiting. And a felony charge just does not go away and is likewise going to hang over the driver the rest of his life.

And regarding laws, getting tougher on negligent driving would certainly be something worth lobbying for. But things like drunk and cell-phone driving statutes, which target only one possible cause of negligence and recklessness at a time is not the way to do it -- make negligent driving a much more serious offense to begin with and then amend such laws with aggravations for conditions like drunk or distracted driving.
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Old 01-12-17, 07:49 PM   #38
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I don't understand stories like this. They confuse me to such a deep extent.

I am a safe driver, but these signs (below) definitely communicate to me that even if I'm a selfish bastard and have no regard for human life, there will be firm consequences if I accidentally hit a construction worker with my car.

Enough with the public service ads and pro-cycling marketing/propoganda. How about signs (i.e. clearly communicated laws) that say "Hit A Cyclist, $10k fine, 14 Years in Jail, and Lose your License" ?

It just seems so simple and fair to me. That's all I'm sayin'.
complaining over

Cyclist do not have a union that donates millions of dollars to politicians.
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Old 01-15-17, 06:49 AM   #39
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I'm just incredibly saddened that this guy only got 60 days in jail and 36 months of probation for running over a woman on a bicycle just outside the town I grew up in. He's the reason there are lots of 3 feet passing signs around that town now.

Man convicted of killing Washburn professor Glenda Taylor in crash receives 60 days in jail | The Topeka Capital-Journal

I understand he's remorseful and the accident has bothered him, but 60 days isn't much of a deterrent for others to watch out for people on bicycles.

BTW, that highway the accident occurred on is a two lane with barely any shoulder. My wife has prohibited me from riding on it, even though it's part of bicycle route 76. When I was a kid working in my dad's service station, we often had groups or just individual cross-country cyclists passing through town. But parts of it are very hilly and a car coming over a hill might not have time to react.
Your wife is smart for not letting you ride on that route.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:21 PM   #40
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A motorist in Australia got a $500 fine for killing a 60 year old cyclist.
The motorist hit him from behind whilst traveling on a straight section of road.

https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/modes...-ng-b88337272z
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Old 01-26-17, 04:33 AM   #41
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US prison systems are messed up and I honestly don't think he even should've gone to jail at all. 1. What good would that actually have done? The whole point of punishment is so that the person being punished learns their lesson and doesn't do it again. Rather, I would have taken his license until he's proven that he rode a bike for at least 1000 miles, with at least some of it being on busy roads. I then would have made him pass a driving license test again beforehand. Two years without driving makes your insurance bonuses for good driving invalid, so he'd have to start out paying loads again in insurance. 2. Given the US prison return rate is ridiculously high, putting anyone in there for any length of time means there's a good chance they'll come out worse than they went in. This will in turn tax the economy more and not fix anything.

The punishment should fit the crime so that oh idk, less crime gets committed. And if you're fussed about making him an example do others won't do the same thing, you know what would work better? Not handing out driving licenses like candy at Halloween. Our driving tests are a freaking joke.
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Old 01-26-17, 11:49 AM   #42
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you know what would work better? Not handing out driving licenses like candy at Halloween. Our driving tests are a freaking joke.
I agree. Last time I renewed my license I didn't even have to take a test. True, I've been driving for 30 years, but how do they know I'm a good driver, other than looking at my clean record? A clean record could mean that I just haven't been caught yet. I guarantee if you went out and asked 100 random drivers what the minimum passing distance for passing a bicycle is, very few would know.
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Old 01-26-17, 12:09 PM   #43
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US prison systems are messed up and I honestly don't think he even should've gone to jail at all. 1. What good would that actually have done? The whole point of punishment is so that the person being punished learns their lesson and doesn't do it again. Rather, I would have taken his license until he's proven that he rode a bike for at least 1000 miles, with at least some of it being on busy roads. I then would have made him pass a driving license test again beforehand. Two years without driving makes your insurance bonuses for good driving invalid, so he'd have to start out paying loads again in insurance. 2. Given the US prison return rate is ridiculously high, putting anyone in there for any length of time means there's a good chance they'll come out worse than they went in. This will in turn tax the economy more and not fix anything.

The punishment should fit the crime so that oh idk, less crime gets committed. And if you're fussed about making him an example do others won't do the same thing, you know what would work better? Not handing out driving licenses like candy at Halloween. Our driving tests are a freaking joke.
<gasp><splutter><choke>! The punishment should fit what?! He killed somebody! What does it matter that US prison systems are messed up? He needs everything you said and a taste of prison as well. This is not about making him an example. I doubt if 200 people know about what he did, and if 20 actually care about the outcome. Its about justice for the deceased and her loved ones, the 20 that care. He is not 17. Put a 17 year old in prison with adults makes them into real pieces of work that are guaranteed to return. This POS is already past his prime, the prison stay will simply be an attitude adjustment. He is too old and unfit to be a target of... you know, so no worries on that score. He will be messed with, he will not have a good time. That is the point. The deterrent to society in license revocations is in publicizing the fact that it can and will be done in cases like this. If he went on to get 2 more moving violations after this tragedy he is beyond redemption. Prison won't fix him. He needs not to drive a car ever again.
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Old 01-26-17, 12:20 PM   #44
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I agree. Last time I renewed my license I didn't even have to take a test. True, I've been driving for 30 years, but how do they know I'm a good driver, other than looking at my clean record? A clean record could mean that I just haven't been caught yet. I guarantee if you went out and asked 100 random drivers what the minimum passing distance for passing a bicycle is, very few would know.
Being a skillful driver is not the same as being a good driver. There are terrible drivers from a vehicle handling standpoint but because they are considerate human beings they end up being better drivers than some POS with a cocky attitude and loads of experience with aggressive driving maneuvers. You cannot test for "good driving ability". Absolutely hand out those driving certificates like candy, but also enforce lengthy suspensions for even minor lapses in judgement, and revoke them completely for serious ones, and you improve the overall road culture of the driving public over time. But alas, sidelined drivers do not pay insurance premiums, they do not buy gasoline and car accessories. They don't buy new cars... and the DOJ is made very well aware of this by lobbyists... watch your six.
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Old 01-26-17, 12:44 PM   #45
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<gasp><splutter><choke>! The punishment should fit what?! He killed somebody! What does it matter that US prison systems are messed up? He needs everything you said and a taste of prison as well. This is not about making him an example. I doubt if 200 people know about what he did, and if 20 actually care about the outcome. Its about justice for the deceased and her loved ones, the 20 that care. He is not 17. Put a 17 year old in prison with adults makes them into real pieces of work that are guaranteed to return. This POS is already past his prime, the prison stay will simply be an attitude adjustment. He is too old and unfit to be a target of... you know, so no worries on that score. He will be messed with, he will not have a good time. That is the point. The deterrent to society in license revocations is in publicizing the fact that it can and will be done in cases like this. If he went on to get 2 more moving violations after this tragedy he is beyond redemption. Prison won't fix him. He needs not to drive a car ever again.
There's no justice in punishing someone simply for the sake of punishing them; that's just revenge. And the number of people I personally know who've been in and out of prisons, I can definitely say that no one REGARDLESS of their age, goes in there for any length of time and comes out unchanged. Adults can still experience trauma and be a target of **** you know (though actually, **** happens way less in prisons than you think - it's normally the prison guards that do the most damage).
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Old 01-26-17, 12:48 PM   #46
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You cannot test for "good driving ability". Absolutely hand out those driving certificates like candy, but also enforce lengthy suspensions for even minor lapses in judgement, and revoke them completely for serious ones, and you improve the overall road culture of the driving public over time. But alas, sidelined drivers do not pay insurance premiums, they do not buy gasoline and car accessories. They don't buy new cars... and the DOJ is made very well aware of this by lobbyists... watch your six.
You can definitely test for good driving ability, though I do agree with your different definitions of skillful and good. My brother is skillful but drives aggressively and I'm not as good, but drive very carefully. However, you can't test for good driving ability in a 20 minute test around the block, like we try to. And how would handing out driving licenses like candy be a good thing? Then you get people who can't drive skillfully NOR well and they end up killing people.
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Old 01-26-17, 01:40 PM   #47
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<gasp><splutter><choke>! The punishment should fit what?! He killed somebody! What does it matter that US prison systems are messed up? He needs everything you said and a taste of prison as well.
Disagree 100%. Prison in such cases is nothing but vengeance, as demonstrated by the victim's family stating as much. I really have no desire to fill our prisons with every last driver who makes a piss-poor decision. Want to talk about taking away their licenses? Sure. Want to talk about fines and community service and house arrest? Absolutely. Want to talk about prison for a first time offense in such matters? No. Prison needs to be for people that willfully commit crime, and who have proven themselves incapable of existing peacefully in society.

It sucks when a lapse in judgement takes a life on the road, but that is an outcome we accept when we have a society dependent on nearly every last person holding a drivers license, with no legitimate policy in place to prohibit them from driving. I hate to break it to you, but even when the deaths are other motorists, long sentences are generally not handed down unless utterly complete recklessness or impairment is involved.
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Old 01-26-17, 04:20 PM   #48
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But its ok to send some juvenile down for life for shoplifting in a three strikes you're out state? IMO vengeance is a far better reason to incarcerate people than profit. And don't think there isn't profit in Mass Incarceration. There are many ways to justify the "cost" of keeping men behind bars for decades for property crimes or non-lethal violence. Jobs for second rate medical professionals and new graduates looking to work of their med school debts. $40K/yr.+ wage opportunities for low attainment Americans of the right demographic. An unpaid ($0.45/hr is not a wage) labor force that is now in excess of 1M. That is larger than the entire U.S. Postal Service workforce. Most of these men (and women) have never taken a life, not by intention, by accident, or by carelessness. Don't get me started.
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Old 01-26-17, 04:31 PM   #49
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I dunno but I often wonder if the 3rd strike shouldn't just be a capital offense. I mean if someone can't learn from the first two, what value do you really think they provide to society?
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Old 01-26-17, 04:40 PM   #50
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(Deleted. We shoudn't be having this inane discussion here.)

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