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Old 01-16-17, 05:07 PM   #51
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Anything over 100' is a barrier to the bikeshare target market. Cyclists for whom this isn't a barrier are probably riding their own bikes.
It is still not a mountain.
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Old 01-16-17, 05:12 PM   #52
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It is still not a mountain.
It's all relative.

Here in Westchester we have a number of cities with "mountain" names, ie. Mount Vernon, Mount Kisco, and Mount pleasant. There are very tall "mountains" in the range of a few hundred feet (far less than 700).

In any case it doesn't what you call it, or how high it really is. If 100' is a barrier, it doesn't matter if it's 101, 1,001, or 10,001. It's sort of like diving. Friends ask me how I can be willing dive to 100+ feet, and my standard response is that after 5'9" it's all the same to me.
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Old 01-16-17, 05:22 PM   #53
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Some of you guys sound like my Kansas relatives talking about their mountains.

When they visited in Colorado, we would take them on a picnic in the Rockies, an extra 5,000 feet above Denver. We would take the narrowest road with a 300' to 400' straight down drop off on their side of the car. After that, we never heard another word about their mountains again.

What is the big deal with a 100+ foot dive as long as you watch your bottom time?
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Old 01-16-17, 05:39 PM   #54
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What is the big deal with a 100+ foot dive as long as you watch your bottom time?
Absolutely nothing. As I said, after 5'9" it's all the same. But I was referencing the worries of non-diver friends and relatives who can't conceive of jumping off a boat in the middle of an "ocean".

However, whatever you call them, they don't have to be high to be barriers to large numbers of bicyclists. I see many, many people walking up anything steeper than about 5% and being totally frustrated by climbs of less than 100'. For these people, the other 9,900' don't matter because they'll never get there.
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Old 01-16-17, 06:24 PM   #55
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Actually, Montreal's Bixi bike share program posted a surplus for 2016. As well. it started out as a private concern and was taken over by the city a couple of years ago as a non profit public bike share program,sort of blowing away any thought that publicly owned services are less efficient than ones that are private. Also, keep in mind that Montreal has a mountain smack in the center of the city,so there are plenty of hills here. Admittedly we have no mandatory helmet law
The 2016 surplus will be used to provide better services this year
Better service is called for since "the system is in service from only April 15 to November 15. The stations are removed for the winter" IAW their website.

Presumably other bike share systems might do better if they only serve isolated locations and restricted times when there is positive cash flow. Presumably every other publicly owned transportation service in Montreal runs year round.
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Old 01-16-17, 06:29 PM   #56
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Better service is called for since "the system is in service from only April 15 to November 15. The stations are removed for the winter" IAW their website......
I don't have any problem with locals deciding to run the system seasonally. There's a cost in maintenance and staff to keeping the system open, and if usage drops below critical mass, running seasonally is smarter than going broke to meet some idealistic or political agenda.

There's also a safety issue when there's ice on the roads.

How one looks at this depends on whether they believe that half a loaf is better than none, or not.

BTW - their Metro system shuts down nightly. As a New Yorker, I used to find this very disconcerting.
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Old 01-16-17, 06:40 PM   #57
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IDK the big city on the Puget Sound, tourism, renting bikes , demand is zero in the winter , in the oldest town on the west coast.
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Old 01-16-17, 06:59 PM   #58
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It was a foolish waste of time and money. Any government program without an effective plan... is just corruption... with a fancy name. This program [Pronto] never had an effective plan.

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Old 01-16-17, 07:24 PM   #59
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Wow, thats tough, even on paths and parks...
Judging by the number of cyclists I see without helmets....a wild guess of around 40%.... its obviously rarely enforced.
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Old 01-16-17, 08:09 PM   #60
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Judging by the number of cyclists I see without helmets....a wild guess of around 40%.... its obviously rarely enforced.
Yeah, but still, it's on their books... You bike, you HAVE to wear a helmet. Period. Full mandatory.
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Old 01-16-17, 08:20 PM   #61
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Is Seattle covered in snow anyway? Too messy and potentially dangerous...transit busses skate away now and then like the last big winter.
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Old 01-16-17, 08:39 PM   #62
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Yeah, but still, it's on their books... You bike, you HAVE to wear a helmet. Period. Full mandatory.
I was just pointing out that through observation and personal experience there seems to be little if any enforcement. In the context of the subject, I doubt it had any meaningful impact on the bike share program. I suspect Seattles weather and topography are the major factors.
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Old 01-16-17, 09:05 PM   #63
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I think mandatory helmets would be certain death to any bike share program. I always wear a helmet. Except when I'm visiting another city and taking advantage of their bike share service.
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Old 01-16-17, 09:48 PM   #64
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Judging by the number of cyclists I see without helmets....a wild guess of around 40%.... its obviously rarely enforced.
Makes an easy excuse for a legal Terry Stop in an effort to search for drugs. It would be interesting to find out how many of the helmet wearers do so just to avoid such a stop.
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Old 01-16-17, 10:10 PM   #65
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Makes an easy excuse for a legal Terry Stop in an effort to search for drugs. It would be interesting to find out how many of the helmet wearers do so just to avoid such a stop.
Obviously one can't make accurate assessments by looks alone, but very few of those who appear to be "homeless" or substance abusers wear helmets, and looking at the bigger picture with whats going on in regards to the homeless epidemic in Seattle, perhaps that's precisely why its not being enforced.

I don't look like the typical middle class cycling enthusiast, and the thought never entered my mind until you brought it up.

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Old 01-16-17, 10:23 PM   #66
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How one looks at this depends on whether they believe that half a loaf is better than none, or not.
Also depends if one considers a half a loaf (half-assed) operation a "going concern." Operations that do not meet the agenda/objectives of its political/financial backers are not likely to continue to receive that support.
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Old 01-16-17, 11:02 PM   #67
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..... Operations that do not meet the agenda/objectives of its political/financial backers are not likely to continue to receive that support.
Yes, that's obvious. But my outlook as a customer is less concerned with ultimate viability. If you were to ask me to invest, that would be a different story.

But my half a loaf analogy wasn't about economic viability, it was a response to your objection over Montreal's system being closed in the winter. You see the winter closing as a negative and cause for criticism, while I see the existence of a working (at some level) program in the summer as a positive, and an improvement over no program at all.
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Old 01-17-17, 08:16 AM   #68
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From a completely selfish standpoint, I wonder if the Pronto bikes will go up for sale to the public. I'd use one as an errand bike around my house.
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Old 01-17-17, 08:24 AM   #69
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Presumably every other publicly owned transportation service in Montreal runs year round.
Estacade du pont Champlain is closed from 15 November to 15 April.

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Old 01-17-17, 08:30 AM   #70
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I guess I don't understand why the ride share program and the helmet law make the two incompatible. Why isn't it a simple case of making rental helmets available, and frequent users just bringing their own helmet?

Imaging a scenario where I'd use the bike share, it'd almost definitely be while traveling TO Seattle, but not bringing my bike. Clip a helmet to my bag and I'm good to go. In fact, that's what I'd do anyway. Law or not.
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Old 01-17-17, 09:03 AM   #71
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Probably true, BUT how many/what percentage of commuters fit that description? Apparently not very many, especially on a daily, all season basis, and certainly not enough to make bike share programs "going concerns" anywhere.
In flatland you all pony up the public bucks for Arrowhead. Your choice, not mine.

But yes, people using bikeshare bikes make up a considerable fraction of commuters in some cities. Montreal for example.

Do keep guessing. You are doing so well.

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Old 01-17-17, 09:09 AM   #72
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I guess I don't understand why the ride share program and the helmet law make the two incompatible. Why isn't it a simple case of making rental helmets available, and frequent users just bringing their own helmet?

Imaging a scenario where I'd use the bike share, it'd almost definitely be while traveling TO Seattle, but not bringing my bike. Clip a helmet to my bag and I'm good to go. In fact, that's what I'd do anyway. Law or not.
That's what I've done. Law or not. In Seattle even.

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Back from another trip to Seattle and a ride courtesy of Timbuk2.

I do not understand West Coast Capitalists - free loaner bike, free loaner bag, free loaner Kryptonite u-lock, even free loaner toolkit for as long as open-to-close. Also free helmet, leading to an interesting misunderstanding:

"I don't need a helmet."
"Oh yes you do, in Seattle you have to have one. It's the law."
"I know but I brought my own helmet."
"Oh, that's all right then."

As far as West Coast Capitalists - timbuk2 started their "bikeshare" in San Francisco and Seattle before Bay Area Bikeshare and Pronto were up and running. Don't know if they'll bring it back in Seattle now. (I think they had three bikes back then.)

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Old 01-17-17, 09:42 AM   #73
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From a completely selfish standpoint, I wonder if the Pronto bikes will go up for sale to the public. I'd use one as an errand bike around my house.
Did they BUY those bikes? I would have guessed they were a lease deal. I would also guess they will be reconditioned and worked into some other municipality's bike least contract.
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Old 01-17-17, 10:28 AM   #74
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I guess I don't understand why the ride share program and the helmet law make the two incompatible. Why isn't it a simple case of making rental helmets available, and frequent users just bringing their own helmet?

Imaging a scenario where I'd use the bike share, it'd almost definitely be while traveling TO Seattle, but not bringing my bike. Clip a helmet to my bag and I'm good to go. In fact, that's what I'd do anyway. Law or not.
Well the bikes are available out on open racks... so you want the helmets in the same place? Of course that means ill fitting helmets and gawd only knows who wore it last...

We have a free program where I live now... couple of beater bikes in a rack, with a "free, but bring it back" sign. Seems to be working OK... for the moment.
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Old 01-17-17, 10:31 AM   #75
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In flatland you all pony up the public bucks for Arrowhead. Your choice, not mine.

But yes, people using bikeshare bikes make up a considerable fraction of commuters in some cities. Montreal for example.

Do keep guessing. You are doing so well.

-mr. bill
"We all" in flatland are not paying for KC's stadium any more than the residents of Beantown for the locally financed stadiums in numerous cities across the U.S.

Can YOU provide those percentages of commuters who regularly use bikeshare as part of their commute in the cities where bikeshare programs exist?

My guess is the percentage runs from zero (Montreal in the winter) to insignificant in every U.S. city.
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