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Old 01-17-17, 10:40 AM   #76
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I don't have any problem with locals deciding to run the system seasonally.
I have a problem with a system being promoted as a viable option for commuters that doesn't operate for at least 4 months of the year. May be just fine for seasonal tourists and vacationers, just like a ski lift; just not a "going concern" as a practical transportation alternative for reliable commuting purposes.
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Old 01-17-17, 11:15 AM   #77
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"We all" in flatland are not paying for KC's stadium any more than the residents of Beantown for the locally financed stadiums in numerous cities across the U.S.
You mean you're not in Kansas? Sorry about that.

FWIW, in Beantown (and greater area) the public does *NOT* pay for professional sports stadiums.

However, two of the facilities (home to four professional sports teams, Bruins, Celtics, Patriots, and Revolution) are clearly NOT going concerns, since they are sponsored by TD Banknorth and Gillette.

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My guess is the percentage runs from zero (Montreal in the winter) to insignificant in every U.S. city.
You are such a good guesser!

7:00am-10:00pm, Wednesday, September 16th, 2015.

There clearly is no commuting going on.

According to the ACS, there were 38,401.35 +/- 10% bicycle commuters in New York City in 2015. I feel bad for that ~1/3 of a person.

You really like guessing don't you?


ps. Hubway in Cambridge (our fair city) MA is open year round.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-17-17, 01:02 PM   #78
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YYou are such a good guesser!

7:00am-10:00pm, Wednesday, September 16th, 2015.

There clearly is no commuting going on.

According to the ACS, there were 38,401.35 +/- 10% bicycle commuters in New York City in 2015. I feel bad for that ~1/3 of a person.

You really like guessing don't you?
You must not be a good reader or understand what you are reading. Number/count of bicycle trips does not equate to people who use bike share programs to commute.

Maybe that 1/3 of a person was a close enough approximation to the insignificant number/percentage of commuters who regularly use bikeshare bikes to commute on a daily, all season basis in NYC.

BTW, your smokescreen about stadium financing when discussing the viability of bicycle-share programs and/or their usefulness for commuting, fools whom? Whatz next, blowing smoke about the cost/financing of the Big Dig in Boston to discuss bike-sharing operations?

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Old 01-17-17, 01:27 PM   #79
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Just curious.

How did commuting become the basis to measure the role of bikeshare programs?


As I said earlier, bikeshare doesn't work well for classic, AM in, PM out commuting because of the one way flow.

But cities aren't like giant factories where people go in and work at a fixed work station. Visit any large downtown during the day, and you'll see streets full of people moving around. They go to meetings, banks, transit hubs, schools, shopping, and so on. These are the people who's randomized, non-radial travel patterns keep cabbies busy, and who's use of bikeshare bikes won't have them all accumulating in the same place.

In NYC, roughly a quarter of a million people arrive at Grand Central Station every morning, a large number continue their commute on the subway, the rest walk to midtown destinations. If just 1% of those arrivals opted to use bike share, it would have presented a logistical nightmare.

So, while there's a large docking station at GCS, daily commuters isn't and can't be the target use. However, that doesn't mean that thousands aren't using those bikes all over the city, all day.
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Old 01-17-17, 01:30 PM   #80
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Gosh, how could we possibly tease out the number of people who used bike share programs to commute from the data.

Let's make a few simplifying assumptions:
  • We'll assume that a person who commuted in the MORNING during commuting hours also commuted in the EVENING during commuting hours, so we'll only look at commuting hours.
  • Count up the number of trips that took place during commuting hours.
  • Divide by two.

Then just GUESS THAT EVERYONE is a tourist.
Yup, there's your zero alright.

ps. New York's Citybike is open year round.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-17-17, 02:03 PM   #81
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Just curious.

How did commuting become the basis to measure the role of bikeshare programs?
Ask Mr Bill who brought up and *EMPHASIZED* the significance/importance of bike commuters vice occasional/tourist in this discussion.
"Many people who ride bikeshares are *NOT* "occasional cyclists." They are often *COMMUTERS* who commute by multiple modes, and use the bikeshare to close first or last segment."
Seattle shuts down bike share...

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Old 01-17-17, 02:11 PM   #82
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Gosh, how could we possibly tease out the number of people who used bike share programs to commute from the data.

Let's make a few simplifying assumptions:

We'll assume that a person who commuted in the MORNING during commuting hours also commuted in the EVENING during commuting hours, so we'll only look at commuting hours.
Count up the number of trips that took place during commuting hours.
Divide by two.


Then just GUESS THAT EVERYONE is a tourist.
Yup, there's your zero alright.

ps. Citybike is open year round.

-mr. bill
And you can also guess that anyone who rides a bike anywhere/anytime is commuting to/from work, and does the same year round, because after all Citybike is open year round.

And/or you can also guess, if you like, that the actual number of bike share users is a significant percentage of commuters, shoppers, tourists or any other group in transit within NYC. I guess it is not.
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Old 01-17-17, 02:22 PM   #83
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Since ILTB and Mr. Bill seem to have this covered, I'm happy to leave it to them. I've made my points anyway, and have nothing to add to their discussion re. bikeshare and commuting.
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Old 01-17-17, 03:29 PM   #84
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It was a foolish waste of time and money. Any government program without an effective plan... is just corruption... with a fancy name.
Some would say that roads fall into this category.
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Old 01-17-17, 03:35 PM   #85
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I guess I don't understand why the ride share program and the helmet law make the two incompatible. Why isn't it a simple case of making rental helmets available, and frequent users just bringing their own helmet?

Imaging a scenario where I'd use the bike share, it'd almost definitely be while traveling TO Seattle, but not bringing my bike. Clip a helmet to my bag and I'm good to go. In fact, that's what I'd do anyway. Law or not.
Rental helmets are available for our Brisbane bikeshare scheme.
Still struggling.
And despite the fact that people would have no problem with a "rental hemet" for rock climbing, sky diving, horse riding etc etc etc, it continues to be brought up as a reason why people will not use the bike share program.
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Old 01-17-17, 05:14 PM   #86
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Rental helmets are available for our Brisbane bikeshare scheme.
Still struggling.
And despite the fact that people would have no problem with a "rental hemet" for rock climbing, sky diving, horse riding etc etc etc, it continues to be brought up as a reason why people will not use the bike share program.
The fact that people are "willing" to rent helmets for other activities isn't relevant. They're simply accepting a requirement for doing something they want to do. Likewise countless people down under are "willing" to wear bike helmets.

But bikeshare is different because it's not about wanting to bicycle. It's about wanting to go from place A to place B, in convenience and safety. So the helmet requirement is a double whammy. It sends the subliminal message that maybe the bicycle isn't really the safest way to get where they're headed, and it add an "inconvenience" tax as an additional reason to consider other options.

Bikeshare is about short/medium distance travel in town. It competes with walking, the bus or subway and taxis. It's success depends on it's relative speed and convenience compared to those options.

The easiest way to kill bike share is to have frequent bus service on a broad selection of routes, or lower the price of taxis, or make bike share inconvinient or expensive. The easiest way to make bikeshare thrive is to have infrequent, unreliable bus service, heavy making buses an taxis slow, or have a city with complex travel patterns which can't be well covered by mass transit.

It boils down to the balance of "decision factors" in people's minds as they plan their days.

In the case of Seattle, the system probably failed for a number of reasons besides the helmet question. Seattle has good bus service, which lessens the need, and a number of negatives like hills, wet weather, which when added to what purports to be a badly managed system, is enough to make it a lousier option, except to those who want to ride a bike, and those probably brought their own.
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Old 01-17-17, 05:23 PM   #87
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Ask Mr Bill who brought up and *EMPHASIZED* the significance/importance of bike commuters vice occasional/tourist in this discussion.
"Many people who ride bikeshares are *NOT* "occasional cyclists." They are often *COMMUTERS* who commute by multiple modes, and use the bikeshare to close first or last segment."
Seattle shuts down bike share...
Actually, it's YOU, without anythng more than pulling numbers out of your, er, imagination, who guessed that the number was between zero and "insignificant."

Do your own "research" to prove your, er, imagination.

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Old 01-17-17, 05:36 PM   #88
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Bikeshare is about short/medium distance travel in town. It competes with walking, the bus subway and taxis. It's success depends on it's relative speed and convenience compared to those options.
*AND* UBER, sponsored by UBER, burning angels' and investors' money since 2009. UBER!

In NYC, 30 million UBER rides, 10 million Citibike. (That's UBER. sponsored by UBER....)

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In the case of Seattle, the system probably failed for a number of reasons besides the helmet question.
No no no no, the ONLY bikeshare system that has ever failed was where helmets were required by the city. Oh, wait....

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Old 01-17-17, 05:41 PM   #89
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The fact that people are "willing" to rent helmets for other activities isn't relevant. They're simply accepting a requirement for doing something they want to do. Likewise countless people down under are "willing" to wear bike helmets.
I would not say "willing". Forced and willing are not the same thing.
There are many people down here who are not willing and so have stopped cycling altogether or ignore the law despite very high fines for not complying.
The other thing is that our main form of cycling down here is now for sport and so with sport cycling comes helmet compliance.

Quote:
But bikeshare is different because it's not about wanting to bicycle. It's about wanting to go from place A to place B, in convenience and safety. So the helmet requirement is a double whammy. It sends the subliminal message that maybe the bicycle isn't really the safest way to get where they're headed, and it add an "inconvenience" tax as an additional reason to consider other options.

Bikeshare is about short/medium distance travel in town. It competes with walking, the bus or subway and taxis. It's success depends on it's relative speed and convenience compared to those options.

The easiest way to kill bike share is to have frequent bus service on a broad selection of routes, or lower the price of taxis, or make bike share inconvinient or expensive. The easiest way to make bikeshare thrive is to have infrequent, unreliable bus service, heavy making buses an taxis slow, or have a city with complex travel patterns which can't be well covered by mass transit.

It boils down to the balance of "decision factors" in people's minds as they plan their days.

In the case of Seattle, the system probably failed for a number of reasons besides the helmet question. Seattle has good bus service, which lessens the need, and a number of negatives like hills, wet weather, which when added to what purports to be a badly managed system, is enough to make it a lousier option, except to those who want to ride a bike, and those probably brought their own.
The other massive impediment to bikeshare in Brisbane is the complete lack of safe infrastructure in those areas that people want to commute to and from.
Here is our inner city and our suburbs that people want to commute from.
Even for multi-modal travel it is useless as the bikeshare is only located in our inner city and yet the vast majority of our population lives out in the suburbs with some commuting 30-40km to get to work. Even 10km out there is no infrastrictire and no bikeshare to allow them to say bike to a train station, train for a distance and then perhaps bike again. Bicycle are not allowed on our trains during peak periods. And we have one council jurisdiction for this entire area so it is not as if the Bikeshare is owned by one council with people commuting from another council.

Our public transport system is considered one of the worst in Australia too so it is not that people are choosing that over cycling. Our roads are congested with peak period starting at 6am or earlier and finishing around 9am before starting again around 4pm and finishing after 6pm. In some parts of Brisbane traffic remains heavy all day long.

As I said earlier the other thing for Brisbane is that it has no real tourist attractions that people may want to get around to via icycle.
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Old 01-17-17, 05:44 PM   #90
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And despite the fact that people would have no problem with a "rental hemet" for rock climbing, sky diving, horse riding etc etc etc, it continues to be brought up as a reason why people will not use the bike share program.
I'd feel a bit queasy about a rental helmet for any purpose.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:00 PM   #91
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I would not say "willing". Forced and willing are not the same thing.....
I put willing in quotes because I thought that if I said compelled, or forced that it would start a semantics war.

But it's always a choice, either comply with some kind of demand, or pass and either do without or accept the consequences. If people want to do something, and are unwilling to accept the consequences of not complying with a rule, then yes, they are "willing", but it doesn't mean they're happy about it.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:03 PM   #92
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*AND* UBER, sponsored by.....


No no no no, the ONLY bikeshare system that has ever failed was where helmets were required by the city. Oh, wait....

-mr. bill
It looks like you want to fight over something, ...... anything. I'm sure there are some here who'll indulge you, but I'm not one of them.


FWIW - I consider UBER a taxi by another name, but I'm not willing to fight over that either.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:05 PM   #93
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I put willing in quotes because I thought that if I said compelled, or forced that it would start a semantics war.

But it's always a choice, either comply with some kind of demand, or pass and either do without or accept the consequences. If people want to do something, and are unwilling to accept the consequences of not complying with a rule, then yes, they are "willing", but it doesn't mean they're happy about it.
I would suggest that f there was no mandatory helmet law and people still wore helmets then they are willing.
But I understand your point too.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:14 PM   #94
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I would suggest that f there was no mandatory helmet law and people still wore helmets then they are willing.
....
Yes, if there are no helmet laws, then wearing one is a free choice. I wouldn't use the word willing to describe that because "willing" implies acceptance of an imposed condition of some kind. For example, I don't have to go shopping with Debby, nor do I want to, but I'm willing to. (because it makes life easier).
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Old 01-17-17, 06:15 PM   #95
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Yes, if there are no helmet laws, then wearing one is a free choice. I wouldn't use the word willing to describe that because "willing" implies acceptance of an imposed condition of some kind. For example, I don't have to go shopping with Debby, nor do I want to, but I'm willing to. (because it makes life easier).
So you know what is good for you.
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Old 01-17-17, 06:30 PM   #96
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So you know what is good for you.
Happy wife = happy life.
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Old 01-18-17, 05:25 PM   #97
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I have a problem with a system being promoted as a viable option for commuters that doesn't operate for at least 4 months of the year. May be just fine for seasonal tourists and vacationers, just like a ski lift; just not a "going concern" as a practical transportation alternative for reliable commuting purposes.
Despite being operated on a seasonal basis,Montreal's Bixi bike share is a going concern. I invite anyone to come here during the snowy winter months to observe the challenges a full year program would run into. The costs of running a full year program here would push the system into deficit instead of the surplus that it had for 2016. There is simply insufficient demand for shared bicycles in Montreal in the winter,but there is a huge demand for them when the streets are clear of ice and snow
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Old 01-18-17, 05:41 PM   #98
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Despite being operated on a seasonal basis,Montreal's Bixi bike share is a going concern. I invite anyone to come here during the snowy winter months to observe the challenges a full year program would run into. The costs of running a full year program here would push the system into deficit instead of the surplus that it had for 2016. There is simply insufficient demand for shared bicycles in Montreal in the winter,but there is a huge demand for them when the streets are clear of ice and snow
You are NOT allowed to choose seasonal service!

ILTB demands that you run year round, terminate all sponsorship agreements, *and* sell your system to a private entity.

Otherwise, you are not a "going concern." Hey, I don't make the rules arond here. You don't make the rules around there either. ILTB does.

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Old 01-18-17, 05:44 PM   #99
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You are NOT allowed to choose seasonal service!

ILTB demands that you run year round, terminate all sponsorship agreements, *and* sell your system to a private entity.

Otherwise, you are not a "going concern." Hey, I don't make the rules arond here. You don't make the rules around there either. ILTB does.

-mr. bill
Sorry that we broke the rules here. Choosing to run a publicly owned seasonal bike share service that actually pays its way.
We make our own rules
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Old 01-18-17, 06:18 PM   #100
mr_bill
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Sorry that we broke the rules here. Choosing to run a publicly owned seasonal bike share service that actually pays its way.
We make our own rules
Why yes you do.

Note - it is not possible to please the unpleasable.

-mr. bill
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