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Old 01-26-17, 07:28 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by alcjphil View Post
Except that Montreal's bike share program started out as a private company, and has become more successful since it was taken over by the city...
Are you talking about Bixi...? If so, it apparently was the city of Montreal that sold to a private company and only after accumulating $50M in debt. Bixi filed for bankruptcy in Montreal in 2014 and was purchased by the city of Montreal which then sold the company to Bruno Rodi, a Quebec businessman. Montreal is simply purchasing a taxpayer-funded service from a vendor. There will always be those who believe the benefits outweigh the costs, especially if they're not paying the bills. The users below certainly experience the service as a bike rental and label it as such:

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Beware of BIXI Bike Rentals
Jun 04, 2012, 4:28 PM

English-speaking people BEWARE!!! BIXI may decieve you.

The method of fee charging for the BIXI system is incredibly deceptive, especially if you're an English speaker. It charges you a flat $7 fee AND an additional $7 per 30 minutes of rental. However, these charges are NOT well labeled in English.

My wife and I thought we would only need to pay $7 for 24 hours' worth of time. Instead, we were charged over $50 for renting two bikes for 2 hours. When I called BIXI to explain how its policy was not very clear, especially to English speakers, BIXI refused to refund our money or even to accept my explanation.

This is a poor way to treat travelers. I would advise visitors to Montreal to avoid using BIXI unless you're prepared to pay MUCH more than you might think you're paying.

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Old 01-26-17, 07:51 PM   #127
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If you can't understand this then you don't understand English.

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Old 01-26-17, 08:00 PM   #128
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Beware of BIXI Bike Rentals
Jun 04, 2012, 4:28 PM

English-speaking people BEWARE!!! BIXI may decieve you.

The method of fee charging for the BIXI system is incredibly deceptive, especially if you're an English speaker. It charges you a flat $7 fee AND an additional $7 per 30 minutes of rental. However, these charges are NOT well labeled in English.

My wife and I thought we would only need to pay $7 for 24 hours' worth of time. Instead, we were charged over $50 for renting two bikes for 2 hours. When I called BIXI to explain how its policy was not very clear, especially to English speakers, BIXI refused to refund our money or even to accept my explanation.

This is a poor way to treat travelers. I would advise visitors to Montreal to avoid using BIXI unless you're prepared to pay MUCH more than you might think you're paying.
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Might be worth noting the 4.5 year difference between the quote and your link. Some things do change during a 4.5 year period.
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Old 01-26-17, 08:51 PM   #129
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Might be worth noting the 4.5 year difference between the quote and your link. Some things do change during a 4.5 year period.
Bixi was never intended to be a bike rental system. It was conceived as a system that would allow people to use a bike for short periods of time to get from place to place. Unfortunately, many people very often tourists especially in the early couple of years tried to use the bike the way a rental bike would be used, taken out for several hours at a time. Bike share bikes are used to get from one place to another, and then placed back in their docks so others can use them. Then if that person needs a bike again to go somewhere else, they take another bike from a docking station to go to their next destination, and put the bike back so that someone else can use it. Bike sharing, not bike rental

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Old 01-26-17, 08:57 PM   #130
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Might be worth noting the 4.5 year difference between the quote and your link. Some things do change during a 4.5 year period.
And some things don't. The website was easy to understand back then too. So were the docks.

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Paul B - Sorry, but it well published and fully explained. It's not a system for people who want a bike for the day, which is why there are still bike rental stores all over town and some B&Bs rent bikes as well.

It is $7 for the day. Trips of 30 minutes on condition that you return the bike for at least 10 minutes between trips. If you exceed the 30 minutes it is $1.75 for the first extra half hour, $3.50 for the next one and $7.00 for each and every half hour after that.

But it is useful to note that someone posted an over four year old anecdote.

-mr. bill

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Old 01-26-17, 10:17 PM   #131
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Bixi was never intended to be a bike rental system. It was conceived as a system that would allow people to use a bike for short periods of time to get from place to place....
...and, that was the problem-- in Seattle. When you rent a bike you usually are expected to return it where you got it. In Seattle, all of the "share" bikes ended up at the bottom of the hill-- no one wanted to ride uphill.
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Old 01-26-17, 11:15 PM   #132
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And some things don't. The website was easy to understand back then too. So were the docks.

But it is useful to note that someone posted an over four year old anecdote.

-mr. bill
Prices changed, operations changed, so clearly things did change and you should have posted what was up 4.5 years ago to respond to the quote.
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Old 01-26-17, 11:16 PM   #133
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Bixi was never intended to be a bike rental system. ...
What are you responding to, clearly not my post you quoted.
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Old 01-27-17, 12:09 AM   #134
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...and, that was the problem-- in Seattle. When you rent a bike you usually are expected to return it where you got it. In Seattle, all of the "share" bikes ended up at the bottom of the hill-- no one wanted to ride uphill.
I remember seeing somewhere that they were hiring drivers to shuttle bikes by truck to the uphill stations.
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Old 01-27-17, 06:53 AM   #135
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Clearly bikeshare is NOT for commuting to work, because, er....



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Old 01-27-17, 06:55 AM   #136
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Clearly people who ride the Métro would never use bikeshare, because, "research."



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Old 02-02-17, 08:25 AM   #137
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Thoughtful.

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Old 02-09-17, 08:43 AM   #138
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@I-Like-To-Bike, this is CLEARLY UNACCEPTABLE!

How's your "research" going btw?

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Old 02-19-17, 10:52 AM   #139
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Seattle pronto was rolled out, to the public, as a way for people who can not afford to buy a bike, the less fortunate. The wonderful city planners did not seem to realize that bikes are everywhere in Seattle proper. People, hipsters, around here just give the bikes that are out of fashion, or unused, away Goodwill, Salvation Army, a lot of people just leave them out with free signs, a lot of folk put them to the recycling pick-up these go to Bikeworks.

The city planners for a while we're thinking of replacing pronto with ebikes another ill conceived plan. They finally came to a little bit of reality.

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Old 02-23-17, 12:13 PM   #140
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Pronto was a poorly managed and poorly planned system. Instead of focusing on where people ride, the planners seemed to focus on what they believed to be where people would want to go. However, to get to a bike share station, you needed to either drive or get on a bus. Therefore, why use bike share.
There were times many of my friends and family members would be downtown and would have gladly used a Pronto bike share to get home, however, there was never a station anywhere near their homes.
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Old 02-27-17, 10:14 PM   #141
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2 winters and a summer

On the list of ways Seattle bungled the bike share, aside from 45 pound bikes and 3 speeds only suitable for downhill, the accounting period included 2 winters and a summer. In addition to 2/3 of the time periods being the lowest use, one is the rainiest we've had in forever. The accounting periods makes it look like a recipe for failure no matter how the plan was executed.

It's a great idea, and I really wanted it to work...until I saw this on the rates on the kiosk. Forget it. I'd rather walk than get ripped off laboring over garbage. At $77/day You'd be better off buying a $100 Americana Cruiser from Performance ike and leaving to a homeless person when you leave town.

ctrl-c/ctrl-v:
Helmet Rentals
$2.00 for 24-Hour or 3-Day Pass Holders
$30 Replacement Fee after 24 hours

Usage Fees
0 – 30 minutes of each trip INCLUDED - no charge
30 – 60 Minutes $2.00
60 – 90 Minutes $7.00
Each additional 30 minutes +$5.00
Any rides over 8 hrs and under 24 hours will incur a $77 charge.

Any rides over 24 hrs will flag the bike as stolen or missing which may result in a $1,200 charge. Usage fees apply to both casual and annual members.

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Old 02-28-17, 07:08 AM   #142
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On the list of ways Seattle bungled the bike share, aside from 45 pound bikes and 3 speeds only suitable for downhill....
You've never ridden a Pronto bike, have you? They are in fact (emphasis added):

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Originally Posted by mr_bill View Post
Pronto bikes weigh 36 pounds, not 45 pounds. They are also seven speed. Frankly, for me, climbing the hills wasn't much of an issue. Running out of top gear even on a moderate down grade was - and that's common on lots of bikeshares.
About your prices:

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You'd be better off buying a $100 Americana Cruiser from Performance ike and leaving to a homeless person when you leave town.
I spent $16.00 for a three day pass, and splurged for another $2.50 for the key fob.

As far as the suggestion that abandoning a crappy bike in Seattle is in any way helping a homeless person.... SMH.

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Old 02-28-17, 07:58 AM   #143
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Perhaps this is where they failed

@ mr_bill
Perhaps this is where they failed. I took one look at the prices, reasoned that it takes greater than 1/2 hour to find a coffee shop, order, enjoy my coffee and find a station to return the bike to. The next increment is $7. $7 to get a $7 venti soy triple shot latte, just seems like throwing stupid money at an already stupid luxury.

Failing that, it breaks down to $10/hr, but to avoid $77 a day OR to avoid wearing a rewashed/used helmet takes planning. That kind of planning, and a commitment buy a an unlimited multiday pass at 8 or 9 times the impulse purchase rate precludes a bike share.

Then theres the bike itself. It doesn't scream value. They look a lot more on par with the 45 year old Worksman's that trondle along flat factory floors than a fun cruise down the boulevard. Durable and institition heavy. Pastel paint sweetens the deal, but doesn't undo people preconcieved notions of how a government would build a bicycle.

You're right, I've never ridden a Pronto. I tried, I really wanted it to work, I got as far as the kiosk with a card in my hand at the station outside the REI (when I was picking up my STP packet), but as the most charitable of eyes, I just couldn't see the value.

Maybe advertising wide range and many gears and how many stations with in walking distance of x-destination or directions and distance to tourist attractions (with stations) could've helped. Maybe a year to year accounting period to even out the data could've helped. Maybe advertising in tourist brochures at Sea-Tac Link Station and hotel concirerge could've helped. Maybe getting the hotel/tourist industry operators on board could've helped. Maybe targeted online advertising on the usual travel sites could've helped. Maybe Kubly and the whole conflict of interest/ethics violation thing from the get go had an effect.

For whatever reason, a positive presence in the public Consciousness just wasn't there. The Seattle city council, spent millions on a thing from shady dealings of one of it's members, poured money into it and expected it to take off by word of mouth. I apreciate the city council here on many things, but on this issue, they bungled it. Sad.

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Old 02-28-17, 11:14 AM   #144
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@ mr_bill
Perhaps this is where they failed. I took one look at the prices, reasoned that it takes greater than 1/2 hour to find a coffee shop, order, enjoy my coffee and find a station to return the bike to.
You have *extreme* range anxiety.

Anyhow, of all the places in the world to worry about finding a coffee shop - SEATTLE?

You check out a bike from the dock. You ride to the next dock and check in the bike. You could have gone east or west on Denny Way. Walk less than a block to Starbucks. Relax. Enjoy. Then walk back to the dock, check out a bike, and return to REI, where you check in the bike.

Or maybe you decide to ride all the way down to Downtown, check in at Pine & 2nd. Walk all around. You can go to *several* Starbucks within a block or two here.

Download the spotcycle and starbucks apps.

Or maybe you hate Starbucks? Marion & 1st, walk to Good Coffee.

Anyhow, Pronto is running a close-out special. $10.00 special membership good through 3/31.

Then it is going, going, gone.



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Old 02-28-17, 12:30 PM   #145
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mr. bill.
I suggest you move to Seattle, and utilize the bike share then report back.


I am all for a Bike Share, but the Seattle system was not practical for me, my family, my friends, and any out of town visitors I know. The nearest station to my house is over 3 miles away (yes, I live in Seattle proper). Therefore, I either need to walk, take a bus, or drive to get to the nearest bike share station. There is not one near my house, there is not one near my work, and there is not one near any of my friend's or family's houses.


And as for your coffee argument, you are correct, there are coffee shops everywhere. Many of which do not require paying for use of a bike to get to when walking <2 blocks would suffice in most parts of town. (there is a coffee shop <2 blocks from my house, but no bike share for miles )


Strange enough, there is a car2go station closer to my house... Car2go is $15/hr. Pronto is $7/hour + $5.00 bus fare to get to the bike dock and back to my house.


So given the options out there, the bus system or car2go are more attractive than the Seattle bike share, especially for residents.
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Old 02-28-17, 01:27 PM   #146
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mr. bill.
I suggest you move to Seattle, and utilize the bike share then report back.
I've now lived in Seattle for over a month, over two months if you add in the time across Lake Washington.

I've used Pronto and reported back.

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Pronto is $7/hour
Pronto is *not* $7/hour.
This is not rocket science.
The first half-hour the fee is $0.00.
The next half-hour the fee is $2.00.
The next half-hour the fee is an additional $7.00, for a total of $9.00.
The next-half-hour, and every half-hour after that the fee is an additional $5.00.

BTW, the nearest Hubway to where I live most of the year is 2.5 miles. And speaking of Hubway, the Boston Hubway Stations are being reopened after their winter closure. Six are open as of now, well ahead of schedule because of the hoax. @I-Like-To-Bike, thought you'd like to know.

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Old 02-28-17, 02:24 PM   #147
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@mr_bill
Range anxiety, my foot!
Seriously, you're going to tell me my motivations as a prospective customer on the street with a credit card in hand? I told you about my experience and and my motivations in that transaction and the reasoning behind my buying decisions pretty plainly. I just didn't see the value, so I kept my money in my pocket. There's no nefarious prejudiced plot of dooming malice here.

As far as range anxiety? Seattle to Portland in 15&1/2 hours. You?

The system just didn't work. Market forces made that plain. Care to offer your own speculation why that is so? I've offered plenty of my own.

When I want to go downtown, I take 1 of 5 that I own, usually a low value one if I am going to stop ANYWHERE. If ever I find myself there when I haven't arrived by bus or car first, then theres never a station near where I want to go. Usually Ballard to enjoy our microbrew culture.

If I could get a bike at a local park and ride and ride it from Lynnwood/Mountlake Terrace/Shoreline/Aurora Village or Ash Way Park & Rides to downtown and effect a multi-modal commute I would. But I never get that opportunity because I have to get to town first.

You come at me like I'm some out of towner or something. Maybe I should screenshot last years Strava heatmap for you.
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Old 02-28-17, 03:24 PM   #148
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. @I-Like-To-Bike, thought you'd like to know.

-mr. bill
I don't give a dang about any of your "research" on this or any other subject , so do not bother me with your gratuitous snark.
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Old 02-28-17, 03:46 PM   #149
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All this debate here about why Seattle's bike share system failed is somewhat pointless. It failed and that simple fact trumps everything else.

If there were solvable issues which may have prevented failure, then the time to discuss them is passed, as far as this program is concerned.

The bike share concept is still relatively new and in a competitive environment with the other options, and like anything else, some will succeed and some will fail.

However, like with autopsies of hospital deaths, there is value in trying to understand the possible causes of death, so that that information can be used by operators and planners to avoid repeating those same errors. I'm convinced that bike share can be a viable addition to the urban transportation mix in many cities, but I'm equally convinced that it's not going to succeed every place. Even if all the operational issues are addressed, there are specific local ones, including; terrain, weather, travel patterns, sprawl, culture, and the quality and cost of existing alternatives that will prevent bike share from reaching critical mass in many places.
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Old 02-28-17, 05:14 PM   #150
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@mr_bill
Range anxiety, my foot!
Sigh.

"Range anxiety"
1) The fear that you will deplete the batteries of your electric car before you reach a plug.
2) The fear that you will not find a bike dock in the time alloted, and incure BIGLY penalties.

It hurts bikeshare systems around the world.

Seattle WA to Portland ME, impressive.

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