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Old 01-24-17, 10:08 AM   #51
Roughstuff
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I'd be curious to hear from cyclists in the area about the climate of cycling in Montana. Whenever I hear these stories of banning cyclists, I wonder of what caused this to even become an issue.
I found the climate for cycling in Montana to be excellent, from the touristy areas around Glacier and Yellowstone parks to the flat rural areas in the east, e.g. Glendive. Have mixed feelings on this bill: a wolf in the sheeps clothing of "safety." But dollar for dollar, the best investment we can make in improving bike safety on the roadways is to install and/or widen shoulders; if this bill was linked with a funded commitment to do so, I would consider it.
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Old 01-24-17, 08:58 PM   #52
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No. Eliminate them.

Good drivers will self regulate. Bad ones will stop using up valuable oxygen much sooner...and in much smaller pieces.
The problem is many of them will kill good drivers and cyclists at the same time.
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Old 01-24-17, 09:16 PM   #53
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Reality check.

It might just be me, but I wonder if the bill is defective. It simply doesn't make sense, unless the intent was to apply to 4 lane highways, meaning 2 lanes in each direction.

My problem is that most people don't call 2 lane roads "highways", and the fact that it wouldn't make sense to ban bikes from 2 lane roads, yet allow them on busier 4 lane roads.

So, if we assume I'm right, the bill isn't as restrictive or broad based as the version we've been debating.

However, even if I'm right, it's still a lousy bill. But it still would be nice to know what we were discussing.
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Old 01-24-17, 09:21 PM   #54
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Reality check.

It might just be me, but I wonder if the bill is defective. It simply doesn't make sense, unless the intent was to apply to 4 lane highways, meaning 2 lanes in each direction.

My problem is that most people don't call 2 lane roads "highways", and the fact that it wouldn't make sense to ban bikes from 2 lane roads, yet allow them on busier 4 lane roads.

So, if we assume I'm right, the bill isn't as restrictive or broad based as the version we've been debating.

However, even if I'm right, it's still a lousy bill. But it still would be nice to know what we were discussing.
Montana calls most 4 lane roads outside town limits - FREEWAYS.
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Old 01-24-17, 09:28 PM   #55
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Montana calls most 4 lane roads outside town limits - FREEWAYS.
Possibly, but my thought was that the proposal makes NO sense as is, but might make at least some sense if referring to 4 lane vs 2 lane roads.

However, who knows, strange bills are a routine part of the opening days of legislative sessions in every state. No one expects action on them, but they let people say they did something.
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Old 01-25-17, 02:12 AM   #56
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Possibly, but my thought was that the proposal makes NO sense as is, but might make at least some sense if referring to 4 lane vs 2 lane roads.

However, who knows, strange bills are a routine part of the opening days of legislative sessions in every state. No one expects action on them, but they let people say they did something.
The bill is only about the same motoring idiots that yell get the hell off the road.
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Old 01-25-17, 08:57 AM   #57
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In PA, numbered state roads are called "state highways," and plenty of them are one lane in each directions. Having cycled a good deal in MT and been given the state's official highway map, I know that numbered state roads are referred to as "highways," and most of them I have ridden on are one lane in each direction. The only four lane highway I have ridden that I can think of that is MT 1 from its beginning at I-90 thence west through Anaconda, where it turns to one lane in each direction after leaving town. I am sure there are others in the state.


Here is the official state highway map:


Montana State Highway Map 2013-2014


A portion of this state highway isn't even paved, and thus has no paved shoulder:


Skalkaho Highway


I have ridden the entire thing fully loaded. Don't pass it up if you in the neighborhood.
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Old 01-25-17, 12:19 PM   #58
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UPATE: According to a post on ACA's web site, he has already withdrawn his draft bill. Maybe he just wanted some free publicity for his Harley dealership.
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Old 01-25-17, 01:26 PM   #59
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Lived in Bozeman for 10 years. Generally found cycling to be fantastic from about April to October. Except on St Highly 191 - that seems to be where the raving loons came out to play.
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Old 01-25-17, 02:37 PM   #60
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I have to report that HB 194, the Freedom to Drive while Playing Pokemon Go Act, went to the Committee on 2nd Reading (which is a committee of the whole), and failed 37-63.

Current status is "Probably Dead".

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Old 01-25-17, 02:57 PM   #61
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I have to report that HB 194, the Freedom to Drive while Playing Pokemon Go Act, went to the Committee on 2nd Reading (which is a committee of the whole), and failed 37-63.

Current status is "Probably Dead".

-mr. bill
Any other status reports on OT, irrelevant bills that you've been Googling?
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Old 01-25-17, 04:09 PM   #62
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Any other status reports on OT [on topic]... bills?
Bills from freshmen in Montana that are of concern to people on bicycles? Why yes.

Do you have anything in mind?

-mr. bill
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Old 01-25-17, 04:11 PM   #63
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The problem is many of them will kill good drivers and cyclists at the same time.
They'll do that anyway, but let them drive 120+ regardless of conditions, and odds are the first time will be their last act...if they survive long enough to involve anyone else at all. We've had more than a few single-vehicle vs ditch or tree around here where the accident investigator gave up trying to calculate how fast they were going once it was obviously more than double the posted limit.
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Old 01-30-17, 07:25 AM   #64
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I know when I think about Montana I think about the congested rural roadways.
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Old 01-30-17, 08:57 AM   #65
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I know when I think about Montana I think about the congested rural roadways.

This was the biggest traffic jam I saw during my tour there last year.
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File Type: jpg cattle drive.jpg (97.2 KB, 99 views)
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Old 01-30-17, 10:27 AM   #66
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When I took ranch law @ Montana State those cattle had the right of way.
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Old 01-30-17, 11:50 AM   #67
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When I took ranch law @ Montana State those cattle had the right of way.

Doesn't surprise me. On the side of the road where I was standing there was a woman (presumably his wife) in a truck with a flag sticking out. Guess it was to warn motorists.


This was just east of Wise River or MT 43. The guy was very nice. He asked me about my route as he plodded along. I told him and he tipped his hat and said "Sounds good!" There must have been a larger drive not that long ago as there were a lot of dropping remnants on the road surface.
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Old 01-30-17, 12:46 PM   #68
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Yes. I can recall being held up 15-20 minutes by large cattle drives where they'd just take the road. This was over by Miles City. Never bothered me much. But I am not much of a hurried rider or driver.
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Old 01-30-17, 01:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Reality check.

It might just be me, but I wonder if the bill is defective. It simply doesn't make sense, unless the intent was to apply to 4 lane highways, meaning 2 lanes in each direction.

My problem is that most people don't call 2 lane roads "highways", and the fact that it wouldn't make sense to ban bikes from 2 lane roads, yet allow them on busier 4 lane roads.

So, if we assume I'm right, the bill isn't as restrictive or broad based as the version we've been debating.

However, even if I'm right, it's still a lousy bill. But it still would be nice to know what we were discussing.
Not that it matters, but I don't think the bill is defective, just lousy.

In MD, DE and PA, state laws, proposed county laws and individual police officers make distinctions between roads with single and multiple lanes in each direction. The theory is that with multiple lanes, motorists can use the passing lane; with only 1 lane in each direction, motorists might not be able to pass a bicyclist.

At one point, a county councilman in MD proposed banning bicycles from roads with one lane in each direction to avoid delay to motorists; roads with more than one lane have space for motorists to pass so bicyclists could have been allowed.

Conversely, a police officer in DE told me bicyclists were not allowed to use roads with multiple lanes in each direction (not legally true).

PA Law for impeding traffic (Title 75 Section 3364) only applies to roads with not more than one lane in each direction - on roads with multiple lanes slow traffic can use the right lane and faster traffic can use the 2nd lane. (PA Doesn't separate bicycles from motor vehicles for impeding.)


In practice, the DE and MD rules seem to be intended to remove bicyclists from roads; DE bicyclists have also been cited on narrow 2 lane roads, and it wasn't clear the MD councilman thought bicyclists would actually use roads with 4 lanes (higher speed limits, need 2 lane roads to get to them).

It is difficult to get support for a complete ban on bicycling on all roads, but some motorists try to remove bicyclists from any roads they actually use (narrow roads, wide roads, roads with intermittent shoulder, speed limit over 35 mph ... ).
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Old 01-30-17, 02:04 PM   #70
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Yes. I can recall being held up 15-20 minutes by large cattle drives where they'd just take the road. This was over by Miles City.

I would love to see that. SE/South central part of the state is the one area I have never ridden in. Did do the entire High Line from Cut bank to the ND border back in '99 and have done other riding in the state. Planning to do this in 12 days starting in June:


https://ridewithgps.com/routes/18316675
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Old 01-30-17, 02:12 PM   #71
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Great looking ride!
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Old 01-30-17, 04:40 PM   #72
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When I took ranch law @ Montana State those cattle had the right of way.
probably many other states have a similar law as this AZ one:
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28-858. Approaching horses and livestock
A person operating a motor vehicle on a public highway and approaching a horse-drawn vehicle, a horse on which a person is riding or livestock being driven on the highway shall exercise reasonable precaution to prevent frightening and to safeguard the animals and to ensure the safety of persons riding or driving the animals. If the animals appear frightened, the person in control of the vehicle shall reduce its speed and if requested by signal or otherwise shall not proceed further toward the animals unless necessary to avoid accident or injury until the animals appear to be under control.
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Old 01-30-17, 05:02 PM   #73
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probably many other states have a similar law as this AZ one:
Not a bad idea to model laws protecting bicyclists after this type of law. If I recall, the Montana law came about as a result of people flying over hills on rural roads and hitting cattle. And for a change, the law was written to assign responsibility to the driver of the car. Compare that to California, where I lived in a Small mountain town, and there was a large population of wild donkeys. People kept hitting them because they were driving too fast, so instead of making the drivers get right and follow the speed laws they trapped and relocated the entire donkey population. This really ticked me off because I really like seeing the donkeys, except the one stallion that chased me to keep me away from his females.
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Old 01-30-17, 05:06 PM   #74
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Not a bad idea to model laws protecting bicyclists after this type of law..
Bicyclist arrested
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Old 01-30-17, 05:30 PM   #75
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...This really ticked me off because I really like seeing the donkeys, except the one stallion that chased me to keep me away from his females.
How can I put this delicately...?
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