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Old 02-06-17, 08:58 AM   #26
njkayaker
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Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
But in many states, the slow moving vehicle laws require the slow vehicle to move onto a safe turnout to allow passing if 5 (other #s in some states) vehicles are backed up, to allow passing of backed up vehicles.

Cyclist should understand these laws and how they apply, as well as bicycle laws before being confronted by police or road raging motorist.
Some "turn out" laws are limited to motor vehicles and require the use of places designated for turning-out.

In any case, a bicycle riding FRAP isn't illegally "impeding traffic and isn't required to turn out.

"Turn out" laws appear to be motivated by slow vehicles going up hill in mountainous areas.

In any case, there doesn't appear to be any placest turn out in the place the OP is talking about.

"Turn out" laws don't seem relevant to this situation at all.



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Generally I will pull off at posted turnouts, not at high risk, unmarked, places.
No "turn out" law requires using "high risk, umarked places". Many of them require using places that are designated as turn outs.

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Old 02-06-17, 09:13 AM   #27
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Am I allow to ride on this kind of road?
It's 3 miles long. No shoulder for the entire distance.
This picture must have been taken on early Sunday morning.
It gets pretty busy during the day.
I'm afraid I'll get in trouble, like a ticket for "holding up traffic."
At night, I come home late...so around 10:30 pm, less traffic, but still alot.

This is sort-of rural...so alternative route is same, no shoulder.

Almost certainly it's legal to ride there.

There might be a requirement to ride "as far right as practicable" on the left side of the white "fog line". If you are riding "as far right as practicable", you aren't illegally "holding up traffic" (keep in mind that there are all sorts of "holding up traffic" that are normal and legal).

Your issues (if they occur) with law enforcement are likely to be about differences in opinions about what "as far right as practicable" means.

Most states don't require cyclists to use shoulders (the "as far right as practicable" requirement applies to the travel lane). Thus, not having a shoulder does not mean cyclists are not allowed to use a roadway.

Your biggest issue is that that section of road might be a place that drivers might not expect cyclists.

A bright rear light would be a good thing to have even in daylight.

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Old 02-06-17, 09:16 AM   #28
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No "turn out" law requires using "high risk, umarked places". Many of them require using places that are designated as turn outs.
I realize that. A lot of the confusion comes from poorly written drivers handbooks, and people not realizing that they are merely summaries of the vehicle code, not the code it self. Several years ago I had a discussion with a friend who was convinced that the law required drivers to pull off the road whenever there were three, or more, cars behind them. I was forced to admit that the handbook said just that.

It appeared that, if a person were driving along the coast at, or even above, the speed limit, the instant a third car entered the line behind the first car, the driver of the first car was required to turn off the road, over the cleft, and into near certain death in the rocks and ocean below. . . clearly, it was a poorly written summary of the law.

As far as the road shown by the OP, I wouldn't hesitate to ride on it. However, I would be further out to the left than the rider in the picture is. That rider is inviting people to pass too close and to be pushed off the road.

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Old 02-06-17, 09:33 AM   #29
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I realize that. A lot of the confusion comes from poorly written drivers handbooks, and people not realizing that they are merely summaries of the vehicle code, not the code it self. Several years ago I had a discussion with a friend who was convinced that the law required drivers to pull off the road whenever there were three, or more, cars behind them. I was forced to admit that the handbook said just that.
That's a useful point to make but, earlier, you made the same confusing error. (I'd have to see the actual text to be convinced that it "said just that").

You talked about what you wouldn't do ("not at high risk, unmarked, places"), not what these laws want you to do.

These laws don't want you to use "high risk, unmarked, places" either.

"Turn out" laws are also weirdly irrelevant here anyway.

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It appeared that, if a person were driving along the coast at, or even above, the speed limit, the instant a third car entered the line behind the first car, the driver of the first car was required to turn off the road, over the cleft, and into near certain death in the rocks and ocean below. . . clearly, it was a poorly written summary of the law.
I doubt it "appeared" to have said anything like that to a reasonable person (though, I suspect you are exaggerating).

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As far as the road shown by the OP, I wouldn't hesitate to ride on it. However, I would be further out to the left than the rider in the picture is. That rider is inviting people to pass too close and to be pushed off the road.
I'd probably be farther to the left too. There probably isn't a good argument (one that would be convicing to "a reasonable person") to be in the middle of the lane.

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Old 02-06-17, 11:36 AM   #30
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90%+ of the roads I ride look just like that one. Look up your state laws and ride accordingly. Take the lane when possible and do what you can to make yourself as visible as possible.
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Old 02-06-17, 01:01 PM   #31
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My worry wouldn't be "getting in trouble" it would be getting a rear view mirror in the back of the head by a Hummer.
I can't remember last time I seen a Hummer.
But I'm seeing more and more super-size pickup truck around here, like the ones with 6 wheels and big big side mirrors.
Eventhough we don't have farming or ranching out here. Pretty ridiculous excess imo.
If I am going to get hit, it's probably going to be by one of these.
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Old 02-06-17, 01:08 PM   #32
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90%+ of the roads I ride look just like that one. Look up your state laws and ride accordingly. Take the lane when possible and do what you can to make yourself as visible as possible.
Yep. Me too.
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Old 02-06-17, 01:12 PM   #33
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It's legal and perfectly do-able.
Have ridden over 300,000 miles so far and at age 84 I still ride roads like the one pictured.
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Old 02-06-17, 01:47 PM   #34
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Yes you can ride on that road. It sounds like you're not comfortable doing that - yet. Here are some ways to make you more comfortable riding on roads. Before you start riding, put a mirror on your bike. The Myracle mirrors that attach to the end of your flat bar work very well. You'll be amazed by how much more confident you'll feel by having a mirror. Next, practice the three rules for safety: 1. Be seen (wear bright clothes) 2. Be predictable. 3. Be lawful. Start by riding on neighborhood streets where you'll be sharing the road occasionally with cars. You'll learn to trust drivers. Move onto busier roads or streets where the traffic is slower. Find roads with wide shoulders so that you can get used to cars going by you. Ride roads like the one in the photo during slow traffic volume times. Ride as far to the right as is safe (for you). This means about three feet from the edge. Cars will pass you safely. Many states now have a four (or three) foot rule that says that cars must give vulnerable users four (or three) feet of clearance when passing. As confidence in your biking ability and your trust in the drivers increases, ride these roads at busier times. It may be that you will never want to ride a road like this during busy times and there are certainly some roads that are best to avoid. Good luck.
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Old 02-06-17, 02:42 PM   #35
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I think the real issue here is the poster's attitude more than anything else. He's not used to riding on the road for long distances, and is afraid of what traffic will do. You need to adopt a typical road cyclist attitude; if somebody honks, either yell a smart quip, or else gesticulate. Don't give an inch. You have as much right to be there as they do.

If you ride timidly, then the sociopath drivers will seek you out, just like the way lions go after the weakest animal in the herd.
While I agree with you 100%, its important to remember that right of way is something road users are obligated to give, not something they are entitled to take.
Nobody wants to give in to a bully, but in the heat of the moment I find it all too easy to cross the line, and become the aggressor which accomplishes nothing positive. At some point one must control their emotions, swallow their pride, and mitigate the situation for everyones safety.
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Old 02-06-17, 04:04 PM   #36
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At some point one must control their emotions, swallow their pride, and mitigate the situation for everyones safety.
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Old 02-06-17, 04:19 PM   #37
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While I agree with you 100%, its important to remember that right of way is something road users are obligated to give, not something they are entitled to take......
Yes, which is where I part company with the more vociferous "take the lane" folks.

I believe in taking the lane, then giving it back to the next guy by looking for or creating safe passing opportunities. .I'm used to riding in NYC's close quarters, don't have a problem with a very close pass ----AS LONG AS they've first slowed to match my speed.

So IMO the OP should have no issue riding this stretch in the center of the lane (or either tire track), then when cars are behind him, and there's some room in the oncoming traffic, moving closer to the fog line and letting the cars filter through.

Once he adapts the technique, he can ride safely yet, not cost any other road user more than a minute or so. IMO, this is what's meant by sharing the road, and works better for everybody than an adversarial mentality.
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Old 02-06-17, 05:45 PM   #38
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Some "turn out" laws are limited to motor vehicles and require the use of places designated for turning-out.

In any case, a bicycle riding FRAP isn't illegally "impeding traffic and isn't required to turn out.

"Turn out" laws appear to be motivated by slow vehicles going up hill in mountainous areas.

In any case, there doesn't appear to be any placest turn out in the place the OP is talking about.

"Turn out" laws don't seem relevant to this situation at all.
And when a cop pulls you over and says you are required to comply with the slow moving vehicle laws; you not knowing the law puts you at a disadvantage with the cops claim regardless if the law really applies to cyclist or not.

Cyclist should know their area, city and state cycling laws and slow moving vehicle laws in detail before a cop pulls you over or some motorist tries to tell you what they think you are required to do.
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Old 02-06-17, 07:32 PM   #39
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And when a cop pulls you over and says you are required to comply with the slow moving vehicle laws; you not knowing the law puts you at a disadvantage with the cops claim regardless if the law really applies to cyclist or not.
Cops don't have to invoke the "turn out" law to be a problem.

In the OP's situation, it doesn't seem possible at all to "turn out". He's much more likely to have a problem with a cop not understanding the FRAP law.


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Cyclist should know their area, city and state cycling laws and slow moving vehicle laws in detail before a cop pulls you over or some motorist tries to tell you what they think you are required to do.
No one is saying people shouldn't know their local law. Regardless, arguing law with a cop might not be a great idea. Ignore what motorists tell you what to do.

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...you not knowing the law puts you at a disadvantage with the cops claim regardless if the law really applies to cyclist or not.
This is a mess.

"Knowing the law" means you know whether or not it it really applies to cyclists.
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Old 02-06-17, 07:38 PM   #40
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IME - knowing the law is pointless with regard to the police. They need to know the law (and may not anyway) to issue a citation, which has to include the specific law you violated. I never waste time arguing with cops, and instead find it to work better to be cooperative or apologetic rather than contentious.

If/when you do get a citation, then you need to know the specifics of the law and how it's applied, to make your defense in court, which may be the first time anyone is willing to listen.
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Old 02-06-17, 08:06 PM   #41
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I never waste time arguing with cops, and instead find it to work better to be cooperative or apologetic rather than contentious.
I learned a long time ago that making eye contact, smiling, and giving friendly acknowledgement will end a negative encounter before it begins.
IMO, people skills far outweigh legal knowledge because cops are people too.
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Old 02-06-17, 09:18 PM   #42
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Several people unwilling to educate cops on the actual law. Very sad.

Even cops need a chance to learn the law. Even if they will not admit they are wrong on the road, at least the they are likely to look it up later.


Not knowing the law, too often leads to a ticket that cost you time, while the cop simply does not show up to court and does not learn a thing.




.
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Old 02-06-17, 09:34 PM   #43
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Several people unwilling to educate cops on the actual law. Very sad.
IDK, other than job related interactions at truck scales, I haven't had an encounter with a cop since the 80's, and I've never felt compelled to compromise on my riding choices to accomplish that.
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Old 02-07-17, 07:30 AM   #44
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the quicker a cop encounter is over, the better. I was once stopped for going thru a red light when I had stopped for it & then kept going when it turned green. don't know what the cop was thinking. I tried to explain what just transpired cuz I felt like I was in a candid camera or twilight zone episode, felt like I was being "gaslighted". he gave me the ticket & said: "don't worry, just fight it" which I did and I was found not responsible. I always fight tickets anyway, but now I never give it a 2nd thought. thank you officer (stinks but I'll be in court no problem). haven't paid for a ticket in over 20 years & there have been plenty
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Old 02-07-17, 10:48 AM   #45
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If I ride it during the day, there would be a long line of cars behind me.

Why? If you are positioned like the cyclist above, traffic can (and will) filter past you. I don't see any "ditch" to pull into. Once you get on that road you are committed.
Precisely.

I ride to the right, and rarely get more than 1 or 2 cars behind me. Ride consistent and straight near the edge of the road, and they'll figure out how to pass.

If I have a car following me for more than 30 seconds or so, I'll find a driveway and pull into it. Slow down a bit, and there is room/time for a car to pass before one gets to the opposite end of the driveway.
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Old 02-07-17, 11:02 AM   #46
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IMO there are no solid rules about lane placement. Every situation is different and has it's own nuances, and cyclists have to be equally nuanced in their lane placement choices.

On this particular stretch -- straight and narrow -- I'd ride well out in the lane to make myself most visible and slow traffic behind me. Then as cars slowed, I'd move to the fog line to create an opportunity for them to filter past.

Depending on the volume of oncoming traffic, that might be when there were nice gaps for cars to make a wide clear pass, or if there were no opportunities, I'd hold them up a few seconds until they matched my speed, then let them filter past sharing the lane.

While every road and situation is different there's almost always an option between riding the fog line and hoping for the best, and taking the lane because it's your right. The goal is to work out a course of action that allows sharing the road so everyone gets to the other end safely and without undue delay.
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Old 02-07-17, 11:33 AM   #47
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IMO there are no solid rules about lane placement. Every situation is different and has it's own nuances, and cyclists have to be equally nuanced in their lane placement choices.

On this particular stretch -- straight and narrow -- I'd ride well out in the lane to make myself most visible and slow traffic behind me. Then as cars slowed, I'd move to the fog line to create an opportunity for them to filter past.

Depending on the volume of oncoming traffic, that might be when there were nice gaps for cars to make a wide clear pass, or if there were no opportunities, I'd hold them up a few seconds until they matched my speed, then let them filter past sharing the lane.

While every road and situation is different there's almost always an option between riding the fog line and hoping for the best, and taking the lane because it's your right. The goal is to work out a course of action that allows sharing the road so everyone gets to the other end safely and without undue delay.
^^^ Pretty much this... I could quibble about the need to "slow them down", as usually that is what happens anyway, but the logic is sound. What is really needed though, are EU style legislation concerning the overtaking of bicycles. In the EU, speed is the parameter that must be controlled when a motorist overtakes a cyclist. In the US, speed does not need to be modified, excessive passing distances are mandated instead. Distances that are, in many cases, impractical. Impractical statutes + lax enforcement = regular collisions. That should change. U.S. cycling advocates need to start agitating for common sense speed reductions during passing maneuvers, instead of unwieldy minimum passing distances. Then riding FRAP would become much less fraught. But cyclists that are afraid of cars (the majority) don't want them close no matter how slow they are going. They keep up the pressure for 3' minimum passing distances and wonder why cars don't always comply. That should change.

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Old 02-07-17, 03:57 PM   #48
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From the OP, I have no idea what jurisdiction this is, but if it is in the US or Canada it is virtually certain to be legal and to use the center of the lane for visibility (i.e. let motorists know there is not enough space to pass within the lane).

In many areas It is quite likely that many police and most motorists will not be aware of this, or believe it even if they are told. (One police officer seemed to think bicyclists are required to ride on the shoulder, so he pulled me over for riding on a stretch of road with no shoulder).

From the OP question and other comments about not feeling safe on any road and aggressive drivers, I suspect transportation bicyclists are rare in this area. I recommend (i) use lights after dark (ii) check local laws (iii) carry a copy of the law or at least know the relevant sections for conversations with police.
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Old 02-21-17, 01:50 PM   #49
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Of course you are. Unless there's an adjoining bike path or alternate route and there are laws requiring you to use them, you're allowed to use any non-controlled-access road.

I ride roads like that almost exclusively (no shoulder, 2 lanes) - about 20 of my 25 miles one way every day. I really don't have trouble.
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