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Vehicular Cycling Poll, who does it?

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Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.
View Poll Results: Do you ride vehicularly?
Yes, I VC everywhere, even in 8 lane, 45mph zones.
54.08%
Yes, but only under sparse car conditions.
17.35%
Yes, only where there are no bike lanes.
10.20%
No, I don't, but I feel unsafe sometimes riding on the right.
0
0%
No, I don't. However, I feel safe with my current technique.
5.10%
No, I don't like being an inconvenience to cars.
1.02%
No, I don't think it's safe.
2.04%
Other.
10.20%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

Vehicular Cycling Poll, who does it?

Old 05-28-05, 01:31 PM
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Vehicular Cycling Poll, who does it?

I've been following the thread Serge started for a while now, but it doesn't seem like many people actually do VC. I'm curious about how many of you actually cycle vehicularly or plan to, and why.

I just got a road bike a few weeks ago and plan on cycling to places where I won't have to carry much cargo back. Recently, I find that I don't like driving anymore. For some reason, every time I drive, I become frustrated and disappointed. It could be all the gases I see rising from cars on a hot day or the smell of oil and tires when I open my window or just the fact that all I see is a bunch of lifeless and impatient metal. This is why I want to bike; it feels much more fresh, healthy, open, and unconfined. Of course, the problem is: cyclists are a very small minority, and the fact is, not many people even know cyclists' rights. Heck, I didn't even know that cyclists are allowed to ride vehicularly until I read these forums. If I saw one a year ago on the streets, I would be pissed off or think he's stupid and crazy, to tell the truth. So here comes the problem:

Even though San Jose has bike lanes on almost every major road, I don't feel very safe riding in bike lanes, especially when approaching an intersection where there is a right turn lane. There is a sense of being trapped on the right. When I get close to the intersection, I can't all of a sudden move out of the bike lane to go straight because there are cars to my left who want to turn right and are most likely not going to yield to me. The solution is, of course, riding vehicularly so that everyone sees me and has to slow down regardless of my intentions. However, when I ride vehicularly, I always feel guilty about being an inconvenience to cars (yes, I've read all the posts about being an inconvenience and such but still can't get over it). So here I am, stuck in the VC dilemma: if I drive, I feel bad, but if I bike in the bike lanes, I don't feel safe.
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Old 05-28-05, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by powertoold
...
So here I am, stuck in the VC dilemma: if I drive, I feel bad, but if I bike in the bike lanes, I don't feel safe.

There is no dilemma. Use common sense and the experience that you gain over time. VC, in general, is the best approach.

Don't the purists ruin it for you, however. Don't do things that make you uncomfortable just because some VC bully said it was "the right thing" to do.

As for bike lanes, it is fully possible to use and enjoy many bike lanes safely. Yes, you are right that intersections + BL are problematic, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to solve that problem when it is in front of you. Be careful and use your wits.
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Old 05-28-05, 04:08 PM
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That poll option "Yes, only where there are no bike lanes." implies that using bike lanes is somehow mutually exclusive with behaving as a "vehicular cyclist", a fallacy common with the VC extremists who, it seems, see it as their life mission to pontificate in various forums (and sometimes impose their views on all of us during municipal policy reviews).

My bike is a vehicle: it is defined as such under law (Ontario Highway Traffic Act, in my case), I use it as such, and it is on the road. Roadways have many types of lanes- from general use, to turn lanes, to special use (bus/car-pooling/bike/taxi/etc.). My bike is no less a vehicle because it happens to be located on a bike lane, pathway, or "normal" lane.

I "drive" my bike as a vehicle at all times and in all places, but also adapt my speed and behaviour to take into account surface conditions, laws, safety concerns, traffic density and types. Having gone a few rounds with the VC extremists here, I now realize that talking with them or reading their posts is, at best, a waste of time. People, roads, cities, laws, and driving habits all differ from place to place and time to time. Old grandmothers who can barely cycle at walking speeds; young couples towing child trailers; people with physical disabilities; and hardcore VC advocates all have a right to a reasonably safe, reasonably enjoyable, and reasonably convenient way to cycle from their own points 'A' and 'B'. I am not selfish enough to deny someone else a method I dislike, nor am I deluded enough to think that any one method will serve everyone.

Do educate yourself about the pros and cons of various cycling facilities (and that does include "normal" roads), and do learn to cycle in a manner you feel is as safe, effective, and pleasant as possible for your circumstances. Don't believe any one self-proclaimed expert, however. Megalomania does a poor job of advocacy.

Finally, ride your bike! These internet debates are really meaningless, don't waste too much time on them.
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Old 05-28-05, 04:16 PM
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That's why you don't stay over on the right when there's a right turn lane. I feel just as safe in bike lanes as I do out in the right hand lane, where the exact same things happen as when I'm in the bike lane. Do research on the web and learn as much as you can, and get familiar with the laws for proper bicycle riding in California.
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Old 05-28-05, 04:27 PM
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Yes, I ride ve-hic-u-lar-ly 95% of the time...but I don't like that name.

Mrs JavaMan said it made her think of cyclists with pocket protectors on their jersey!
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Old 05-28-05, 05:19 PM
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Please don't fall for the falsehood that riding vehicularly means never using bike lanes or bike paths, or being against them.

What it really means is following the rules of the road and using the proper lane for the proper job.

In my book it also means using courtesy, common sense, visible clothing, appropriate lighting and maintaining positive communications with motorists. It also means above all else, enjoying the ride and never forgetting how much better it is to get where you are going without frustration.
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Old 05-28-05, 05:22 PM
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I voted "other". I act as a bicycle driver 95% of the time and I'm quite comfortable doing that, but I don't think that's the only way to bicycle safely.

I agree with previous responses:

H23: "Don't the purists ruin it for you."

And my favorite,
patc: "Don't believe any one self-proclaimed expert, however. Megalomania does a poor job of advocacy."

JavaMan: "Yes, I ride ve-hic-u-lar-ly 95% of the time...but I don't like that name."

I don't like the name, either. It's a gigantic misnomer but I guess we can overlook that.

What bothers me more is that the term has been taken over by people who think VC is the only way to cycle, think that they are God's gifts to cycling and think that anyone who disagrees with them is an idiot.

But, in general, I agree with H23 that there is no dilemma.

VC is a good way to ride but not the only way. Dogma is a poor substitue for common sense. (It's too bad that common sense is not as common as the name implies).

Last edited by JRA; 05-28-05 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 05-28-05, 05:37 PM
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I think VC is the best. However, JRA, I don't think non-VC riders are idiots and I know that I am far from God's gift to cycling. If I read or hear about a different method that makes sense, I will try it and judge for myself. I do like that VC has rules that make cycling easier. Sometimes I don't feel like thinking too much, so I just relax and follow the rules.
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Old 05-28-05, 08:53 PM
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I practice VC anytime I am on the road, I feel I am much safer when I do so. I will, however, take back roads or a bike path if there is one available often just to avoid the added noise and stress associated with riding in traffic. Though, in Knoxville, there really isn't much in the way of bike paths and since the city is laid out in such a FU'd fashion, it's not easy to get around without taking some main roads.

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Old 05-28-05, 09:31 PM
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I stay on bike lanes as much as possible, obviously when there is no bike lane then I VC it.

Powertoold you need counseling dude! "I become frustrated and disappointed. It could be all the gases I see rising from cars on a hot day or the smell of oil and tires when I open my window or just the fact that all I see is a bunch of lifeless and impatient metal"; first all you can't see the gases much anymore these days, that's why places like Los Angeles have more clear air days then they've had in over 30 years because the smog devices and reformatted gasoline are all working. Your also not smelling oil or tires unless you work at a race track! Ant then somehow "IF" you could smell all of that how is cycling going to prevent you from smelling it, when in fact if your cycling you will be exposed to all those "smells" even moreso!

Lifeless and impatient metal? ALL METAL IS LIFELESS, and the person driving the car is impatient not the car. But wait, a lot of bikes are made of metal thus this lifeless metal scenero applies to bikes as well and the impatient metal or actually rider applies here too!

And you don't feel safe riding in bike lanes? I bet you don't feel safe anywhere. How many locks are on your doors at home, bet you have alarm system on your car and home.

Stop freaking out and either drive a car or ride your bike anywhere you please and do it relaxed, the more tense and worried you are the more chance for a problem to occur.
Your paranoia will prevent you from experiencing many wonderful discoveries either on a bike or car or boat etc. You could be hit by a car while walking so why get out of bed? Oh I know why you have to get out of bed, because an airplane could fall out of the sky and hit your house. Just forget about bad things that "might" happen, bad things will happen to everyone sooner or later, it can't be prevented, so don't look forward to it, but rather look forward to good things happening and let the bad come and go, your life will be more enjoyable.
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Old 05-28-05, 10:00 PM
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I was just trying to make an impression lol. Anyway, if you have your window open next to a F150 or <I waste more gas than normal> car, you will smell gas, oil, whatever the hell it is. When you're biking, the wind is smacking against your face and it just feels more "fresh" or whatever, sure when you stop, you'll smell some of the crap from cars, but it's still better.

Edit: I think you're trying to take it too literally.
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Old 05-28-05, 11:23 PM
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A lot of the bike lanes here are designed for VC, for instance the left turn going from Evelyn Avenue onto Sunnyvale Ave is marked bike lane. That's not a high-speed intersection for cars so it's easy to go as fast as they do there, and there are generally a lot of bikes there since it's right near the sunnyvale caltrain station so drivers are used to seeing bikes

"caltrain" sounds like a pocket-protector word to me too!
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Old 05-28-05, 11:31 PM
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Is it illegal in California to VC when there are bike lanes? Anyone ever get pulled over?
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Old 05-29-05, 09:33 AM
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Riding in bike lanes is not necessarily contrary to VC, though it may be. Please do not fall for the misinformation spread by those who do not understand VC and contend that VC advocates like myself are "VC extremists", and that part of our "dogma" is that "using bike lanes is somehow mutually exclusive with behaving as a 'vehicular cyclist' ". It is true that vehicular cyclists behave as if the bike lane stripe does not exist, and that many of us are opposed to bike lane stripes for various reasons (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bike_lane_debate), but that does not mean we do not ride in (and hence use) bike lanes. It means we treat the bike lane and the adjacent lane as one big wide lane, as if the stripe is not there, and choose the appropriate position within that lane for the given circumstances accordingly.

Diane correctly points out that VC is about choosing the proper lane for the given situation and circumstances, though vehicular cyclists typically do not view a "bike lane" as a separate demarcated lane (we ignore the stripe and ride as if it is not there). VC is also very much about choosing the proper position within a lane according to speed positioning (between intersections) and destination positioning (at intersections and their approaches). The speed and destination positioning rules of the road often guide the vehicular cyclist into riding in a bike lane (particularly between intersections, and at intersections and their approaches where the cyclist is turning right). Therefore, someone cycling in a bike lane may very well be adhering to the vehicular rules of the road, and hence may be a vehicular cyclist. It depends on the situation, factors and conditions at the time.

Your own question, "Is it illegal in California to VC when there are bike lanes?", is based on the assumption that VC and bike lane riding are mutually exclusive. Before we proceed, you must understand that they are not. If you still have any questions about that, please ask. Some people miscontrue "vehicular cycling" to simply mean "using the full lane". It isn't. You may want to refer to the Wikipedia entry on "vehicular cycling" for more information on this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling

Now, perhaps you're asking, "is it illegal in CA to ride outside of bike lanes where there are bike lanes". The answer is NO, as long as you have a good reason. And the relevant law in CA, CA CVC 21208, has many exceptions in it for just about any situation a vehicular cyclist may need to leave the bike lane. You should read it, and study it carefully.

21208. (a) Whenever a bicycle lane has been established on a roadway pursuant to Section 21207, any person operating a bicycle upon the roadway at a speed less than the normal speed of traffic moving in the same direction at that time shall ride within the bicycle lane, except that the person may move out of the lane under any of the following situations:

(1) When overtaking and passing another bicycle, vehicle, or pedestrian within the lane or about to enter the lane if the overtaking and passing cannot be done safely within the lane.

(2) When preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.

(3) When reasonably necessary to leave the bicycle lane to avoid debris or other hazardous conditions.

(4) When approaching a place where a right turn is authorized.

(b) No person operating a bicycle shall leave a bicycle lane until the movement can be made with reasonable safety and then only after giving an appropriate signal in the manner provided in Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 22100) in the event that any vehicle may be affected by the movement.
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21208.htm

With respect to your original question, note subsection (4), which excepts you from having to stay in the bike lane any time you are approaching a place where a right turn is authorized. Think about the significance of this every time you ride by a driveway, alley, mall entrace, or side street, not to mention any major intersection. What do you think is the purpose of putting this particular exception in the law?

As to your "I always feel guilty about being an inconvenience to cars" comment, please read (or reread) the opening post of my "attitude" thread, https://www.bikeforums.net/advocacy-safety/106637-role-attitude-traffic-cycling.html, because I tried to address this very issue there. Bottom line, in order to act as a vehicular cyclist, you must believe, deep down, that you have the same right to travel on the roads as does any other vehicle driver. You are not a second-class visitor on their territory, only allowed to use whatever they are not using. You have the same right to use whatever part of the roadway you require to reach your destination reasonably and safely. And that often means leaving the bike lane. In fact, I prefer to think of it in terms of mostly riding in the bike lane, and riding that far right on the relatively rare occasions when it is safe and appropriate to do so.

If you study all of the exceptions in 21208 carefully, I think you will find that at least one of them applies most of the time you are cycling on the road. Often, the bike lane is simply too full of debris to safely ride in it. Or you might be going the same speed as traffic. If you're going the same speed as traffic, but down hill and pretty fast, riding in the bike lane is still not safe. If none of that is going on, most likely you're preparing for a left turn, about to pass someone or go around some other obstacle in the bike lane, or are approaching a place where a right turn is authorized. Only when none of that applies, is it safe and reasonable (not to mention legally required) to temporarily ride in the bike lane, and stay there only until one of those exception conditions becomes true again.

Serge

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Old 05-29-05, 01:46 PM
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best teacher is experience plain and simple, most "cyclists" I run into in many ways try to avoid it LOL, for example, in many cities group rides are usually done on the outskirts of town or out in the country, the city I live in is no exception to that,funny how that is isnt it?

some streets/situations arent always suited to bikes unless the rider is strong,fast,brave, and experienced, just the way it is, doesnt mean you shouldnt ride there or act like a car when doing so, but some common sense is always helpful isnt it?

bike lanes, there arent any here, glad too, they are worthless

I dont have a problem with advocacy per se, but this poll is impossible to fit into, I also find many that advocate "advocacy" pretty hypocritical most of the time, Ive spent way too much time on the street not to see that.I dont think the point of advocacy should be claiming one's right to the road, but learning to deal with the situation as its dealt on a case by case basis, and before you jump on someone's case like ive seen too many times(ride of silence for example), might wanna get your own house in order so to speak.This isnt directed at anyone in partitcular, but I think its healthy to recognize that cars will likely be on the streets for a long time, and bike riders too, there will be idiots on both sides of the issue.VC sounds and looks good on paper, but adhering to it 100% may get you killed, there's an old maxim, you can be right and still be dead.

peace
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Old 05-29-05, 01:49 PM
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So you're saying since you are authorized to turn right pretty much everywhere, you don't have to ride in the bike lane? Isn't that pushing it lol.

I am aware of that law and can always use the excuse of debris or hazardous conditions to not ride in the bike lane, so I'm just wondering if anyone ever got pulled over.
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Old 05-29-05, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by powertoold
So you're saying since you are authorized to turn right pretty much everywhere, you don't have to ride in the bike lane?
There's more to it than that, but basically, yes. Let me ask you this: do you think it's safe to stay in a bike lane when approaching any place where a right turn is authorized (assuming you're not turning right)?

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Old 05-29-05, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by pedex
VC sounds and looks good on paper, but adhering to it 100% may get you killed, there's an old maxim, you can be right and still be dead.
This sounds like the anti-VC rhetoric sprinkled throughout Robert Hurst's book, The Art of Urban Cycling.

Here's the thing, can you provide even one example, real or hypothetical, to illustrate your point? In what situation might adhering to VC 100% get you killed, and violating the vehicular rules of the road (which is what not riding VC means) would save you?

If that's not what you mean, what do you mean by, "adhering to [VC] 100% may get you killed"?
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Old 05-29-05, 02:47 PM
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Well there's situations on the street all the time where even being in a car is dangerous because of blind intersections, poorly designed traffic patterns,and the topography involved, just the way it is, and often times being on a bike in one of those places and acting like a vehicle will put you in danger. Just the fact that a bike rider isnt always as easily seen by motorists in situations like that is enough to add alot to the risk involved.Bottom line, people do stupid things, both bikers and cars, like I said above, experience is the best teacher on both sides of the issue.Sometimes you have to break the law in order to get thru a situation, knowing when that is isnt something that can be taught, it has to be learned.Alot of it is plain old fashioned experience of knowing the area where you ride.

Locally for example in the south end of downtown there are some intersections that have traffic lights that are activated by the presence of cars, but will not be tripped by a bike rider, but also and more importantly, the streets are quite narrow and if one follows the rules of the road as a biker and gets in the left turn lane and waits you expose yourself to being hit when a car makes a turn onto the street where your waiting because drivers have to swing wide around the turn to avoid the curb and come into the turn lane a bit and they arent likely to see you until its too late.They also often almost hit cars sitting there waiting to turn, just a bad situation all the way around, so as a maneuverable biker, why put yourself in danger in that case?Just to be riding VC, gimme a break.

Here's another case, behind our county courthouse on front street, there's parallel parking along the buildings on both sides, which causes drivers to drive in the number 2 lane and 4 lanes plus parking garage exits/entrances, but more often than not, they will be making a right hand turn onto mound street from the the number 2 lane.They arent any "turning" lanes there, its a 5 lane one way, and you can go left or right onto mound street.Now, also more often than not, most folks dont signal, they just turn, and if your following the rules of the road and staying to the right, you risk getting pinched or hit by cars doing this.Its an easily avoidable situation, but its just another case where sometimes you have to blow off the strict interpretation of the law and act accordingly whether you have the ROW or not, survivial is the key.Many of these cases are nothing more than driver ignorance and bad habits, but survival on the street as a biker understanding how to deal with it is part of that isnt it?

like I said, you can be right, and still be dead
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Old 05-29-05, 03:22 PM
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I can think of some other examples. Can someone maybe help with a solution?

Example 1: You're riding over a pretty steep hill and when you go back down, do you just trust that the drivers behind you will slow down when they get to the top of the hill?

Example 2: You're riding on flat ground and some large vehicle is behind you, pretty far away, and directly behind this large vehicle is another car. They are going at 45mph, as the large car approaches you, about 15 feet away, it quickly changes to the left lane while the car behind it is still in your lane going 45mph and is about 25 feet away from you. At this point, will you just get hit? lol
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Old 05-29-05, 03:48 PM
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Ex 1: depends on how fast you're going. If going considerably slower than normal traffic, keep to the right.

Ex 2: pure fantasy. I will go out on a limb here and claim this has never happened. The large vehicle driver isn't going to just approach you as if you're not there if he's going to have to move left to pass you. Surfers are much more likely to be eaten by sharks than a cyclist is to be eaten by a truck in this type of situation. You shouldn't think about it for the same reason that surfers shouldn't think about sharks - it's too unlikely to happen, and the only solution is to not do your thing (surfing, cycling).

As to your earlier examples, in the first one, what would you do if riding a motorcycle? And what non-VC action are you suggesting a cyclist should do? By the way, it's acceptable to ignore a non-functioning traffic signal, which one that cannot recognize your presence arguably is, as long as you yield the ROW appropriately. In the second, it's non-VC to keep to the right on front street as you cross mound street... you should ride far enough left to be visible and predictable (to make it obvious that you're going straight, not turning right onto mound, to discourage right hooks). What non-VC action are you suggesting should be taken here?

Do you believe that car drivers sometimes have to violate the rules of the road to be safe? Motorcycle drivers? Why only bike riders?

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Old 05-29-05, 04:12 PM
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I believe all vehicles at one time or the other have to break the law as strictly written at certain times in order to avoid bad situations, and thats the point Im trying to make.

As far as front street goes,its the same situation on both sides of the road, my solution, depends on where im going(im a courier), if Im staying on front street, I usually use my strength and speed to force drivers to heed me being in the middle of one of the lanes until im clear of the situation, and if I have to dodge an idiot motorist then I do so.Its a 25mph zone which I can exceed quite easily.Your average bike rider isnt capable of these things and often will be victimized by situations like this, I see that occasionally too.

As far as the non functioning light goes, thats a play by situation thing, depends on how much traffic there is, as a messenger Im subject to political things that others arent, for example, any moving violation is an automatic bike impoundment, and you will often be arrested as well, whether they have the right or not.Laws are fine, but the parties involved dont always obey them, on either side of the issue.Right or wrong has nothing to do with it, its the way it is like it or not.There isnt a provisionin the ORC for lights not being tripped by a bike rider,or in the columbus civil code, or in the county code.

VC is great, I have no problem with it,most of the time I follow it, but im practical and experienced as well, I live and work in the real world,not on paper.I will not and cannot lie or pretend how things are vs how they are supposed to be, sorry, I dont work that way.If it means Im breaking the law sometimes and "giving cyclists a bad reputation" then so be it."Cyclists" seem to be doing fine on their own with that.

Ever spend much time riding in a downtown situation day in and day out?Im not talking occasionally either, I mean real time, like in excess of 15000miles/yr?Just curious.I want to hear about some of your experiences.

Last edited by pedex; 05-29-05 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 05-29-05, 04:30 PM
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I'm not questioning your experience. Mine is less, I'm sure. I'm just trying to understand what you mean, and I question whether you understand VC as well as you seem to think you do.

I definitely cannot disagree with this: "I believe all vehicles at one time or the other have to break the law as strictly written at certain times in order to avoid bad situations, and thats the point Im trying to make."

But remember, the vehicular rules of the road that a vehicular cyclist follows are not necessarily those that are "strictly written". For example, in jurisdictions where cyclists are required to keep to the right by law, even when it is unreasonable and unsafe, vehicular cyclists would violate such laws. Vehicular cyclists follow the same laws that apply to all vehicle drivers, and the principles they are based on, period. That's not the same as following the letter of the law all the time.

My issue with what you've been saying is that you seem to be misrepresent VC as following the letter of the law at all times, then take it to task for that, based on what you've learned from experience. I think you are not recognizing the flexibility and adaptability of vehicular cycling to almost any traffic situation, including the examples you have provided.

Serge
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Old 05-29-05, 04:35 PM
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VC is great, I have no problem with it,most of the time I follow it, but im practical and experienced as well,...
This is what I mean by misrepresenting VC.

The implication of this statement is that VC is at least sometimes contrary to what is practical or how experience would lead a cyclist to act. It ignores the practicality of VC and its basis and confirmation by vehicular cyclists with millions of miles of experience.
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Old 05-29-05, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by pedex
best teacher is experience plain and simple, most "cyclists" I run into in many ways try to avoid it LOL, for example, in many cities group rides are usually done on the outskirts of town or out in the country, the city I live in is no exception to that,funny how that is isnt it?

some streets/situations arent always suited to bikes unless the rider is strong,fast,brave, and experienced, just the way it is, doesnt mean you shouldnt ride there or act like a car when doing so, but some common sense is always helpful isnt it?

bike lanes, there arent any here, glad too, they are worthless

I dont have a problem with advocacy per se, but this poll is impossible to fit into, I also find many that advocate "advocacy" pretty hypocritical most of the time, Ive spent way too much time on the street not to see that.I dont think the point of advocacy should be claiming one's right to the road, but learning to deal with the situation as its dealt on a case by case basis, and before you jump on someone's case like ive seen too many times(ride of silence for example), might wanna get your own house in order so to speak.This isnt directed at anyone in partitcular, but I think its healthy to recognize that cars will likely be on the streets for a long time, and bike riders too, there will be idiots on both sides of the issue.VC sounds and looks good on paper, but adhering to it 100% may get you killed, there's an old maxim, you can be right and still be dead.

peace
In other words--everyone should follow the rules, but there are no rules, so just do what you think is best, and if you don't die some day you might be a good (experienced) bike rider but you'll probably be dead before that ever happens because some idiot who won't follow the rules that don't exist will crash into you. And you can't do anything to make it better so why bother.
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