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Old 04-20-17, 01:08 PM   #1
bikecrate
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Colorado Study - Why Cyclist Knowingly Don't Follow The Rules Of The Road

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here...

From the article:
“Unlawful drivers and pedestrians tend to rationalize their behaviors as time saving; bicyclists similarly rationalize their illegal behaviors but were more inclined to cite increasing their own personal safety and/or saving energy.”
Read more at Colorado study reveals the main reason why some cyclists break the rules of the road - Cycling Weekly

My Google-Fu most be weak. I would love to see what questions they asked for their survey, but I can't seem to find it.
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Old 04-20-17, 01:33 PM   #2
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https://www.jtlu.org/index.php/jtlu/...ewFile/871/875

http://www.1stbikes.org/2015/01/take...urvey.html?m=1

The survey page is dead.

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Old 04-20-17, 01:34 PM   #3
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Here is the original article:
Scofflaw bicycling: Illegal but rational, Wesley E Marshall, Daniel Piatkowski, Aaron Johnson

I'm still reading it. I don't see the actual survey.

We'll see if the differentiate between breaking the law for "safety" vs breaking the law to conserve energy (lazy).

At times I do feel it is better too just get out of the way at a traffic light rather than allowing traffic to bunch up around myself. There is one street that I "salmon" on (sidewalk), half a block, because traffic patterns allow easier/safer crossing over down from where I enter.
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Old 04-20-17, 01:44 PM   #4
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So, from the chart in the middle, the Living Car Free, utilitarian cyclists seem to be far worse for breaking the law than the recreational cyclists

I do wonder if people's perceptions/excuses jibe with the reality of safety.
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Old 04-20-17, 02:15 PM   #5
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Survey finds bicyclists and motorists ignore traffic laws at similar rates

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-...-similar-rates

The same type of people regardless of how many wheels are under them.

Go to any thread on Bike Forums that discuss running red lights, stop signs, riding on the sidewalk etc. to get a taste of self-justification being above the law.
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Old 04-20-17, 03:28 PM   #6
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Stop signs, Lights, signals, lanes, speed limits, etc, are all designed to safely move people down the road whether it is in a car, truck, or on a bicycle.

But, all too often traffic enforcers get stuck with enforcing minor infractions with no significant bearing on safety.

And frequently one is only person for miles around, just sitting for the (&(*^##*(&%!!! light to change to green, when common sense dictates just to proceed. And, on a bicycle, of course, there is the dead red problem which compounds the issue.

Of course, the more minor infractions, perhaps the more major safety issues. But, not necessarily true.

For example, I'm seeing a few notes indicating that jaywalking may be safer than crossing at marked crosswalks without signals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaywalking#Safety

On a bike, a rolling stop with zero traffic puts a person at no greater risk than stopping, putting the foot down, then starting again. Do rolling stops lull a person into complacency? Maybe, maybe not. What it does is hopefully foster an awareness of one's surroundings.

Anyway, what we really need are safety studies to see which practices are safe, and which are not.

Why in the heck should a cyclist going across the top of a T intersection in a marked bike lane even slow down for a red? Right turns into a marked bike lane?
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Old 04-20-17, 03:39 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Survey finds bicyclists and motorists ignore traffic laws at similar rates

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-...-similar-rates

The same type of people regardless of how many wheels are under them.
Totally incorrect. Myself and my cycling scofflaw buds (the ones I have driven with) drive motor vehicles very conservatively. In a car I give turn signals, stop completely AT every stop sign - not BEYOND them, stop for every red light and do not go just because I have a green light. On the freeway I set my cruise control at the Limit +2mph, which believe me is NOT the safest route to take much of the time. At least I am surrounded by steel. If traffic is behaving I set the cruise at the Limit - 2mph so I don't have to keep resetting it by catching up with slower traffic. In the city I get my rocks off making all of the other auto traffic behind me obey the law. Nothing beats stopping at every stop sign - completely - with ten cars behind me. Especially if there are a dozen stop signs in a row!

On a bicycle, in the city grid, I do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get to my destination safely i.e., as FAST as possible without expecting motorists to react to my presence. I yield only when FORCED to on a bike. I break every law on the books with glee.

BTW...I got one speeding ticket when I was 16 years old driving 35 in a 20. Just turned 59 and no tickets since then, other than parking tickets.

It's impossible to generalize these things.

Last edited by JoeyBike; 04-20-17 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 04-20-17, 04:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Survey finds bicyclists and motorists ignore traffic laws at similar rates

https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-07-...-similar-rates

The same type of people regardless of how many wheels are under them.

Go to any thread on Bike Forums that discuss running red lights, stop signs, riding on the sidewalk etc. to get a taste of self-justification being above the law.
As a motorist, I strictly obey the traffic laws for my safety. As a cyclist, especially when riding in Hawaii, I utilize the Idaho Stop law for my safety.

Both Hawaii State and Honolulu City&County refuse to set traffic light signals to detect bicycles, (falsely claiming they get too many false detection's from cars in the next lane) even some motorcycles cannot trip the signal. When commuting at night and even some streets in daylight, I could end up waiting from 5 minutes to 1 hour for a car to show up and trip the traffic light signal to green. When cycling, do you expect me to wait as long as an hour for a traffic light to turn green? The exception is on Hawaii military bases, I obey their traffic lights because they are smarter than the locals and figured out how to set the signals properly.
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Old 04-20-17, 04:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by bikecrate View Post
I'm not sure if this has been discussed here...

From the article:
“Unlawful drivers and pedestrians tend to rationalize their behaviors as time saving; bicyclists similarly rationalize their illegal behaviors but were more inclined to cite increasing their own personal safety and/or saving energy.”
Read more at Colorado study reveals the main reason why some cyclists break the rules of the road - Cycling Weekly

My Google-Fu most be weak. I would love to see what questions they asked for their survey, but I can't seem to find it.
Your first in, Thanks for posting it.
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Old 04-20-17, 04:27 PM   #10
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As a motorist, I strictly obey the traffic laws for my safety. As a cyclist, especially when riding in Hawaii, I utilize the Idaho Stop law for my safety.

Both Hawaii State and Honolulu City&County refuse to set traffic light signals to detect bicycles, (falsely claiming they get too many false detection's from cars in the next lane) even some motorcycles cannot trip the signal. When commuting at night and even some streets in daylight, I could end up waiting from 5 minutes to 1 hour for a car to show up and trip the traffic light signal to green. When cycling, do you expect me to wait as long as an hour for a traffic light to turn green? The exception is on Hawaii military bases, I obey their traffic lights because they are smarter than the locals and figured out how to set the signals properly.
Same.
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Old 04-20-17, 05:09 PM   #11
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Totally incorrect....
Quote:
Originally Posted by CB HI View Post
As a motorist, I strictly obey the traffic laws for my safety. As a cyclist, especially when riding in....
It looks like the both of you successfully demonstrated my point by justifying the circumstances in which you break the law.

And then there are motorists (not implying the both of you) who do the same thing when they speed, text and drive, run red lights, roll through stop signs, etc.

And for anyone who considers himself a good driver:
Expedia 2015 Road Rage report
"Nearly all Americans (97%) rate themselves as “careful” drivers, but feel that only 29% of fellow drivers merit the description."

Last edited by Daniel4; 04-20-17 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 04-20-17, 06:21 PM   #12
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It looks like the both of you successfully demonstrated my point by justifying the circumstances in which you break the law.

And then there are motorists (not implying the both of you) who do the same thing when they speed, text and drive, run red lights, roll through stop signs, etc.

And for anyone who considers himself a good driver:
Expedia 2015 Road Rage report
"Nearly all Americans (97%) rate themselves as “careful” drivers, but feel that only 29% of fellow drivers merit the description."
Your first post indicates that you believe cyclist and motorist behave exactly the same, yet each of us demonstrated that as cyclist and motorist, we behave differently. You chose to ignore that to claim some un-found victory.

No think about my stop light running. I did note you refused to answer my question on how long I should wait. Again, you chose to ignore that to claim some un-found victory. But if you were actually thinking about the situation, you would have realized that I am really legally running red lights that are not functioning properly for cyclist. You ignored the fact that I clearly stated I obeyed the lights on Hawaii military bases where the lights are properly set.

So what will you ignore next to advance your false premise?
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Old 04-20-17, 06:36 PM   #13
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We'll see if the differentiate between breaking the law for "safety" vs breaking the law to conserve energy (lazy).
Conserving energy is also a safety concern. A tired cyclist with muscles exhausted from too many stop-and-go uphill intersections is more likely to wobble around and make mistakes.

I'm at the crest of a bowl shaped region. It's a long, gradual uphill slog back home from any direction. Not a big deal now, but a couple of years ago when I resumed cycling after a 30 year hiatus it was a huge struggle to get back into shape. The first month I was having to stop every 400 yards or so to catch my breath -- a 15-year-long bout with numerous health problems and injuries made it a slow recovery.

The first accommodation I made for my own safety was to choose return routes along quiet residential neighborhoods where I could safely roll through as many stop sign intersections as possible to conserve momentum.

I didn't mind riding busier streets in traffic going away from home. Those were mostly long gradual downhills, pretty much for 5-10 miles in any direction, with only a few modest rises.

But the return trip was a killer the first few months. Several times after trying to come to a full stop at every uphill facing stop sign my legs would be quivering and back and neck in spasms after only a mile or so. I remember needing to stop and rest for up to 15 minutes every mile, huffing my rescue inhaler, stretching out cramps and spasms. If I'd been in traffic I'd have been struggling to hold a steady line.

Learning which intersections offered a clear enough view in all directions for rolling through was critical to my own safety then. Fortunately I have a flexible schedule and enough free time to ride just for exercise to get back into shape.

I occasionally ride in groups with some acquaintances who have busy job and family lives and don't have time to ride just for exercise. I see them struggling on every ride, on modest rises where they're wobbling around at a slow walking pace. So it helps to conserve energy by choosing routes where it's safe to roll through stop signs with a clear view in all directions.
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Old 04-20-17, 07:29 PM   #14
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I take minor liberties with the law irrespective of the manner of conveyance. I don't know anyone that doesn't
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Old 04-20-17, 09:38 PM   #15
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I take minor liberties with the law irrespective of the manner of conveyance. I don't know anyone that doesn't
Myself as well, although I'm pretty good about adhering to speed limits when riding a bicycle.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:27 AM   #16
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Conserving energy is also a safety concern. A tired cyclist with muscles exhausted from too many stop-and-go uphill intersections is more likely to wobble around and make mistakes.
I suppose you could look at it that way. I just got back from a 60 mile recreation ride, hitting as many hills as I could find. So it would be hard to argue that I'm too tired to stop at a stop sign.

I do, however, believe there are benefits of safely clearing an intersection as quickly as possible, even if it means getting a rolling start. Not unclipping means more power available from the start, and no missed clips.

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Myself as well, although I'm pretty good about adhering to speed limits when riding a bicycle.
I'm a bit of a Strava Scofflaw.

Can you imagine, someone defined a local Strava segment in a 20 MPH speed zone. It is a rather unique segment. Let one's speed drop too much, and one gets hung up on the lights. Too fast, and one also gets hung up on the lights. Anyway, my Strava PR is a couple MPH above the posted speed limit. I'm still trying to figure out how to get a faster time without running red lights. Starting on a stale yellow helps, but on a good run, one can catch up to the lights. I kind of think the city may have changed their light timing recently, lowering the speed, but making it more difficult for the perfect Strava run.
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Old 04-21-17, 08:31 AM   #17
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I take minor liberties with the law irrespective of the manner of conveyance. I don't know anyone that doesn't
Same here.

IMO, the justifications and vilifications we see here are just elaborate avoidance of the fact that we're simply breaking the law for self gain, and gratification.

When I stop and think about it, I get a laugh out of my own BS, rather than fooling myself with it.
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Old 04-21-17, 09:39 AM   #18
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Same here.

IMO, the justifications and vilifications we see here are just elaborate avoidance of the fact that we're simply breaking the law for self gain, and gratification.
Aren't self gain and gratification the same reasons we drive cars and/or ride bicycles at all, whether inside OR outside the limitations of the laws and regulations?
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Old 04-21-17, 10:24 AM   #19
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Thanks for posting this. I've downloaded the paper for tomorrow's breakfast read.
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Old 04-21-17, 12:24 PM   #20
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Aren't self gain and gratification the same reasons we drive cars and/or ride bicycles at all, whether inside OR outside the limitations of the laws and regulations?
Yes, but unless we transgress while doing it, we don't need to invent excuses to asuage our conscious.
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Old 04-21-17, 01:06 PM   #21
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The same type of people regardless of how many wheels are under them.
Huge difference between rolling a stop sign at <10MPH after looking both ways, and doing the same at 20+ while texting.
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Old 04-21-17, 04:47 PM   #22
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I went to the article connected to the survey. What it doesn't take into account. Is the difference in the law.

The article talks about cyclists' blowing through red lights, among other things. I agree that cyclists' shouldn't go through red lights. But when the weight of the bike n' the cyclist, combined. Doesn't trigger the traffic signal. The traffic backs up. I went through a red once. Because of this very problem. Most of the time I wait.

The article doesn't take into account, archaic traffic laws.

Take riding on the sidewalk. I don't ride on the sidewalk. In my state:

1. State says 'No', but gives counties the right to disagree.

2. County says 'Yes', but gives cities the right to disagree.

3. City north of me, agrees' with the state.

4. City south of me, agrees' with the county.

It is a pish-posh of differing laws, that can affect a cyclist's behavior.
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Old 04-21-17, 08:17 PM   #23
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And for anyone who considers himself a good driver:
Expedia 2015 Road Rage report
"Nearly all Americans (97%) rate themselves as “careful” drivers, but feel that only 29% of fellow drivers merit the description."
The "Lake Wobegon" effect.

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Old 04-21-17, 08:25 PM   #24
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Conserving energy is also a safety concern. A tired cyclist with muscles exhausted from too many stop-and-go uphill intersections is more likely to wobble around and make mistakes.
So, only cyclists that have "too many stop-and-go uphill intersections" are released from the requirement of riding in a safe manner?

What's "too many" anyway?

This is an example of "rationalizing".
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Old 04-21-17, 08:29 PM   #25
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The article doesn't take into account, archaic traffic laws.

Take riding on the sidewalk. I don't ride on the sidewalk. In my state:

1. State says 'No', but gives counties the right to disagree.

2. County says 'Yes', but gives cities the right to disagree.

3. City north of me, agrees' with the state.

4. City south of me, agrees' with the county.

It is a pish-posh of differing laws, that can affect a cyclist's behavior.
Sidewalks laws are weird and an odd exception.

That is, sidewalk laws are not indicative of a general problem with "archaic traffic laws".

You need some other example to make that case.

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