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Old 09-13-17, 11:50 PM   #26
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You know they don't have a very good "sticking my tongue out at you" smiley.

At the restaurant though, when he asked that, I really did not know what to say.
"I divorce thee." "I divorce thee." "I divorce thee."
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Old 09-14-17, 06:13 AM   #27
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Oh it gets worse; the local senior citizen center teaches them to text, FB message and all sorts of other things on their phones. I think they're actually outpacing some of the college kids on bad driving.
It's OK to do all that stuff on a phone, even as a senior... AS LONG AS YOU ARE NOT DRIVING.
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Old 09-14-17, 06:42 AM   #28
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I saw the same video and was slightly (very slightly) bothered that the rider didn't seem to slow down as he came to the crossing.
Not only can you see the rider is on the brakes for the first five seconds of the video, slowing, you can HEAR pads on the carbon rims.

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Old 09-14-17, 06:56 AM   #29
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Okay, so for you folks in the US, please tell me if my license exam experience is normal or not normal.


Your test was much, much more difficult than the one I took in the '80s. The driving portion of the test was administered by a Texas state trooper, and he spent more time checking out the pristine '72 Cutlass I was driving, and fiddling with the radio, then observing my driving.


I hope every state is more strict about doling out licenses, these days, as I perceive young people to be far less focused, and far less respectful of authority, than I, and my peers, were. That could just be "curmudgeon-ness" setting in, though.
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Old 09-14-17, 07:00 AM   #30
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Sorry, I don't see anything wrong with crossing a road even 1/4 second AFTER a vehicle passes. I saw the same video and was slightly (very slightly) bothered that the rider didn't seem to slow down as he came to the crossing. But then I figured that there were good sight lines and he could see that the way was clear.

As I've posed here before, I just about ignore all the traffic laws and adhere to the basic rules of the road that have existed for over a century. So, red light, stop sign or nothing, I check for traffic and proceed when I can do so safely without needing anyone to make any adjustment on my behalf.

By the same token, I don't assume having a green will magically keep me safe. Green or no, I check cross traffic and go if/when it's safe.

My basic rule for intersections is that I not only ride so I won't get hit, I ride so they couldn't hit me if they tried. That's kept me safe for over half a century.


I agree. Unless I'm riding in traffic, where it's crucial to interact with others as an equal "vehicle", for the sake of predictability, my aim is to remain "unavailable for maiming".
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Old 09-14-17, 07:45 AM   #31
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Both of my adult family members who rode the sidewalk were hit entering the intersection.

Cross traffic is unavoidable, and they almost never check well enough before turning.

IMO sidewalk riding is dangerous at busy driveways and intersections.
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Old 09-14-17, 08:00 AM   #32
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Your test was much, much more difficult than the one I took in the '80s. The driving portion of the test was administered by a Texas state trooper, and he spent more time checking out the pristine '72 Cutlass I was driving, and fiddling with the radio, then observing my driving.


I hope every state is more strict about doling out licenses, these days, as I perceive young people to be far less focused, and far less respectful of authority, than I, and my peers, were. That could just be "curmudgeon-ness" setting in, though.
I took my test in the late 80s.
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Old 09-14-17, 08:10 AM   #33
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You know they don't have a very good "sticking my tongue out at you" smiley.

At the restaurant though, when he asked that, I really did not know what to say.
Sure he wasn't trying to get a rise out of you? My answer would have been the sidewalk is generally less safe, generally not legal, and I do get on the sidewalk when I feel it's a better choice.

Regarding the DL exam, mine was in '76 I think and I thought it was pretty basic but kids did complain and fret about it just like they do today. I knew all of the rules regarding bicycles however, and I think it was covered in Driver's Ed and the test.
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Old 09-14-17, 08:12 AM   #34
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running stop signs is all too common. It's such an acceptable thing in fact that many brag videos posted here show it and no one questions it. I have, but my comments are ignored. there was one the other day where a rider flew through a stop sign on a bikepath to cross a road 2 seconds after a couple of vans had shot in front of the camera. His gloves are custom made though so that makes up for it
Not coming to a complete stop is technically illegal like driving 5kph over the speed limit is illegal but the vast majority of people do it.

The video you posted illustrated a safe way to cross the road. The rider slowed significantly, checked that the road was clear and proceeded. In that case one could make an argument that it's actually safer to roll through the stop as it allows one to spend less time in the intersection which is where accidents are most likely to happen. I'm presuming that the rider had good visibility in both directions, was of able mind and could process some visual information in real-time without having to stop and think about it for 30 seconds.
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Old 09-14-17, 09:10 AM   #35
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Ok so looking at your last thread and this one you are nearly getting smoked on a daily commute in busy traffic about every week and a half. Par for the course.
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Old 09-14-17, 09:18 AM   #36
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Ok so looking at your last thread and this one you are nearly getting smoked on a daily commute in busy traffic about every week and a half. Par for the course.
I'm still entitled to be upset and scared over very close calls from stupid people that for some reason aren't acting appropriately around a fairly large moving object. I'm still entitled to be angry over stupid people that for some reason don't give a crap about road laws and act like I don't belong. And I'm still entitled to be very, very surprised that my own husband is oblivious over a very commonly known pair of laws (#1 stay off the sidewalk, #2 vehicles belong on roads).
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Old 09-14-17, 09:35 AM   #37
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Yes, you are entitled, but I would advise that you not let entitlement and rule of law to lead you to expect motorists to act appropriately or think you belong out there (most drivers do not think you belong). As for your husband, at the core of his sidewalk remark is this: Ignore the law sometimes and do what is safer. This is reasonable and is not a surprising thing for a spouse to say. Of course we cyclists know that sidewalk running is often not safer, but your husband does not know that.
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Old 09-14-17, 09:59 AM   #38
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Yes, you are entitled, but I would advise that you not let entitlement and rule of law to lead you to expect motorists to act appropriately or think you belong out there (most drivers do not think you belong).
Well then, here's an open question to everyone. Why is it that when I'm in a car, I have every right and every reason to expect other motorists to obey the law and react appropriately, and when I'm on foot I have every right and every reason to expect motorists to obey the law and react appropriately, but I lose that when I choose to use a bicycle? What are so special about bicycles that I have less expectations and less protection than when I am on foot crossing an intersection?
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Old 09-14-17, 10:22 AM   #39
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Well then, here's an open question to everyone. Why is it that when I'm in a car, I have every right and every reason to expect other motorists to obey the law and react appropriately, and when I'm on foot I have every right and every reason to expect motorists to obey the law and react appropriately, but I lose that when I choose to use a bicycle? What are so special about bicycles that I have less expectations and less protection than when I am on foot crossing an intersection?
Your expectations are generally too high... I anticipate that no one driving a car will do the right thing if there is anyway/opportunity to do something NOT right.

I am rarely disappointed.

BTW, peds and cyclists too will also strive to "do their own thing," but the potential damage from either is generally so low as to be negligible.

People are people.
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Old 09-14-17, 10:26 AM   #40
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You shouldn't lose that when on a bicycle, but you just have to be careful because for some reason (most likely that it's not being taught well in driver's ed classes) that motorists think that bicycles either don't belong on the streets or have to totally yield to the bigger, heaver, and more deadly motor vehicles.

Case in point, my own situation. I ride at 5 AM every morning. On my route is a strange T intersection on the north edge of town. As you're approaching from the south (the bottom of the T), you have the right of way to turn left or right. Traffic coming from the left has a yield sign, traffic coming from the right has a stop sign. For the past several mornings I've noticed a vehicle which comes from the west approaching the intersection (yield sign) without even slowing down. Most of the time I'm far enough away that it doesn't matter, and it's easy for them to see no vehicular traffic coming from the south, so they just blow through it. However, a few mornings ago I was approaching this intersection and had the right of way, however, I braked pretty quickly when I realized this same car was approaching but not slowing at all. Had I asserted my right of way I'd ended up as a red stain on the pavement. Yes, it was still dark out, but they have headlights, I have lights on my bike as well as reflectors and reflective tape on the sides of the bike and on my helmet and reflective strips on my cycling jacket. But they either still didn't see me or didn't care.

I don't know, there's just something about a bicycle which makes a lot of drivers think "screw them." Or maybe whoever was driving has blown through that intersection so many times they never expect any traffic from their right, and one day they're going to end up plowing into someone who has the right of way but won't yield it. At any rate, a yield sign means just that, slow down and yield to any other traffic, not "It's OK, step on the gas, you got this."
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Old 09-14-17, 11:09 AM   #41
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On my route is a strange T intersection on the north edge of town.

....

As you're approaching from the south (the bottom of the T), you have the right of way to turn left or right. Traffic coming from the left has a yield sign. Yes, it was still dark out, but they [approaching from the west] have headlights, I [approaching from the south]have lights on my bike as well as reflectors and reflective tape on the sides of the bike and on my helmet and reflective strips on my cycling jacket. But they either still didn't see me....

Their headlights throw next to zero light on you and your bike in such a case. All the reflectors and reflective tape on the sides of the bike and on your helmet and your cycling jacket are useless in such a case.

Your headlight is throwing next to zero light toward the driver in the automobile, so also very nearly useless. If it is an unlit intersection, they *MIGHT* see some of your light in front of you scattered off the road.

It is a lit intersection, your few photons won't even be noticed. And notice the lights at the intersection - the typical overhead light closest to you on the corner is placing you mostly in SHADOW from the driver's view, and your reflectors and reflective tape are reflecting that light back towards the light. Overhead lights across the intersection are throwing little light at you as well.

Unless you have SIDE MARKER LIGHTS they indeed can't see you. (Even a wide angle be-seen front light might not help much.)

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Old 09-14-17, 11:22 AM   #42
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It is definitely not a lit intersection. It's pretty dark but I have a pretty bright headlight. Still I won't doubt they didn't see me.

I've been wondering if maybe some lights on the side of the bike might be a good idea.

But the main issue is that whoever is driving that car every morning isn't even slowing down for the intersection and just blowing through a yield as if they have total right of way. Which I'm not going to challenge on my bike, just keep an eye out for them in case we approach the intersection at the same time again.
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Old 09-14-17, 11:38 AM   #43
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Well then, here's an open question to everyone. Why is it that when I'm in a car, I have every right and every reason to expect other motorists to obey the law and react appropriately, and when I'm on foot I have every right and every reason to expect motorists to obey the law and react appropriately, but I lose that when I choose to use a bicycle? What are so special about bicycles that I have less expectations and less protection than when I am on foot crossing an intersection?
Want an honest answer or is it a rhetorical question?
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Old 09-14-17, 11:45 AM   #44
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Want an honest answer or is it a rhetorical question?
Honest answer. Why when I'm in a car or on foot, I have a reasonable expectation of people around me obeying the law, but I lose that when on a bicycle?
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Old 09-14-17, 11:54 AM   #45
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Honest answer. Why when I'm in a car or on foot, I have a reasonable expectation of people around me obeying the law, but I lose that when on a bicycle?
Likely it's because you have thousands of hours driving, and have been walking for even longer, and therefore have a different perception of those activities compared to bike commuting where you're comparatively inexperienced.
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Old 09-14-17, 11:58 AM   #46
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Likely it's because you have thousands of hours driving, and have been walking for even longer, and therefore have a different perception of those activities compared to bike commuting where you're comparatively inexperienced.
As far as keeping safe, yes experience and perception go a long way. But actual danger? If I have right of way in a car and take it, I have the completely reasonable expectation that the person at the stop sign will yield to me. If I have right of way on foot and take it, I have the completely reasonable expectation that the car at the stop sign will yield to me. Why is it that in this thread it seems that if I'm on a bicycle, the expectation that the car at the stop sign will yield to me is no longer reasonable?
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Old 09-14-17, 12:07 PM   #47
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Honest answer. Why when I'm in a car or on foot, I have a reasonable expectation of people around me obeying the law, but I lose that when on a bicycle?
No you don't lose that when on a bike. Now that won't prevent drivers who are clueless from exerting their more powerful and much heavier cars against you.

I was cycling the other day and in this specific area, the bike lane ends as that area turns into a right turn only lane. The bike lane picks back up, just to the left of that right turn lane if that makes sense.

I move over to the bike lane and an ambulance starts blaring it's horn at me (the ambulance was not in emergency mode = no lights and siren) about 5 seconds after I move over. As the ambulance pulls along side me the driver starts angrily motioning and pointing for me to get off the road. The ambulance was in the right lane to go straight, I was in the bike lane to go straight. We both came to a stop at the redlight a few feet ahead.

The ambulance driver rolls down his window and continues on with his tantrum yelling at me to get out of the road and says I need to be on the sidewalk. I tell him I am in the bike lane and that he needs to learn the laws of the road. He keeps yelling at me until the light turns green and we both go.

The moral of the story? Divers are clueless about bike laws. They think bikes are suppose to be ridden on the sidewalk and they always think they have the right of way.

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Old 09-14-17, 12:19 PM   #48
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As far as keeping safe, yes experience and perception go a long way. But actual danger? If I have right of way in a car and take it, I have the completely reasonable expectation that the person at the stop sign will yield to me. If I have right of way on foot and take it, I have the completely reasonable expectation that the car at the stop sign will yield to me. Why is it that in this thread it seems that if I'm on a bicycle, the expectation that the car at the stop sign will yield to me is no longer reasonable?
There are some people who drive staring straight ahead, engrossed in their own little world, driving completely legally and expecting everyone else will. They tend to have accidents. I don't think that you're one of those people. We observe hundreds or thousands of little cues that inform us of what the other drivers are about to do, and it's mostly without consciously thinking about it. Drivers react to bicycles differently than they do to cars. Or trucks, or motorcycles. Expectations aren't about following all of the laws - they are about what the driver is actually going to do.

You said he didn't even slow down, and almost hit you. Again, just being honest, that had happened once or twice the first couple of months, and never in the 10 or 11 years since. They didn't all get better at driving - but I learned some things, and that situation does no longer arise. In addition, there are many events - perhaps daily, I don't know - that would upset me in the beginning but I don't even take note of now. Perceptions change.
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Old 09-14-17, 12:34 PM   #49
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If the live-in spouse of a daily commuting cyclist can think the sidewalk is the place for a bicycle, what hope is there of educating motorists at large?
Statistical ZERO. IMO.

Wish into one hand, spit into the other, and see which one fills up first.

BTW...FORGET that any concept called RIGHT OF WAY even exists. You will be happier and live longer.
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Old 09-14-17, 01:57 PM   #50
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Senior citizen drivers are what scares me the most...after texting teen drivers.
Then you should try comparing the accident rates for senior citizen drivers c/w teen to mid 20s drivers. They're far lower. I speak as a 77 year old with a clean licence, max no claims discount, and no collisions in 50 years, so I'm a bit biased.
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