Bikepacker67

Check this out, if you want to learn how NOT to ride:

https://www.digave.com/videos/b-web.mpg

It's big, so if you're on dialup, don't bother.

Metieval

Damn!!!!

I guess we now know why cars hate cyclist.

bikiola

whatever. it takes all types. the fact is, biking like that is sometimes a very poignant political statement against automobile culture. why must we continue to ignore all that's wrong with cars simply because it's against some sort of arbitrary "rules"?

Chris L

Cars are inanimate objects, incapable of liking or hating anything.

If you were referring to drivers, my answer is:

"I already knew that, and it has nothing to do with the video.

Bikepacker67

Are you nuts?

How many people did they put at risk (and I'm not talking about their own moronic hides)

Cyclaholic

They've got some ballz and legs, I'll give them that. Unfortunately their notiriety will come with a headline at the top of the obituary column.

While I don't necesarily agree that they're an example of how we should ride in traffic, I can see why a percentage of cyclists will treat traffic laws with the same level of contempt that we cyclists often experience when on the receiving end of motorists, like you so often read about right here in these forums.

Sort of reminded me of a CM ride, just a lot faster.

BostonFixed

Here are more of lucas' videos:

https://digave.com/videos/

CdCf

Yay, Judas Priest!

gpljr75

Please stop and think about what you are saying!

"Biking like that is sometimes a very poignant political statement against automobile culture."

Really? Poignant means strongly persuasive and to the point. But whom are you trying to persuade and how effective are you being? Are you trying to pursuade yourself? Well, then congratulations, but you didn't need persuading in the first place! Motorists? C'mon! How many motorists who nearly hit one of those ******* came away saying, "Man, I guess I should really rethink some of my assumptions about the world!" B.S. They came away saying, "Dammit, I wish they would outlaw those stupid things. I could have killed that idiot." Pedestrians? I'm sure a lot of the ones who were almost hit by one of those ******* came away saying, "Thank goodness someone has enough courage to send such a clear message about the merits of bicycling vis-a-vis the problems of automobile culture. Having my well-being (possibly even my life) put at risk was a small price to pay to get such a poignant message across." Yeah, right.

I've known anarchist types, and they typically fall one of two categories:

(1) People in search of a thrill, who care nothing of the wellfare of others (ironically, the medical definition of a psychopath is strikingly similar), and who will mindlessly trumpet political slogans as a means of justifying their thrill-seeking. "You gotta fight for your right to party!" gets masked by "Auto culture is destroying the world!" Self-righteous, hypocritical, and utterly ineffective at creating change are these types.

(2) People who can sense that something is wrong with the world but are too lazy actually to come up with a compelling, cohesive, fair alternative AND do the hard leg work that it takes to convince others and work for change. These types, too, are utterly ineffective.

If you want to continue to be ineffective, and actually work against your own aim, then continue making such "poignant" statements. If you're just seeking a thrill, then come on, be honest and drop the self-righteous sloganeering you think is justifying your behavior. Oh yeah, and quit it, too.

Next you said "why must we continue to ignore all that's wrong with cars simply because it's against some sort of arbitrary "rules"?

In case you didn't have a logic course in high school or college, this is the freshman-level fallacy known as creating a false dichotomy. That is, you've set up two options and wrongly suggested these are our only two options. Either we ignore all that is wrong with auto culture or we act like this. Well guess what, there are other options, but, I admit, finding and implementing them goes back to the hard work thing I mentioned above. And doing hard work isn't fun always, is it. Nobody gets a cool video to post on their Web site by presenting a compelling presentation at a town hall meeting or by doing a petition drive, do they.

Good grief.

bikiola

sorry, perhaps i didn't elaborate to the point you needed, gpl. the argument you present reminds me of those who argue against "colorful" protests, critical mass, and the like. simple, that street performance and discomfort do not bring about change, but only enrage the majority. i reject this point of view, and i believe history shows a lot of times where outrageous acts beget tremendous change -- ACT-UP in the 80s with Reagan, *some* of the 60s protests; the RNC protest in New York, and even perhaps we can group Cindy Sheehan in this... we musn't always work "within" the system to affect change; clearly we need this, but we can also utilize human creativity to really point of the fallacies of the conditions we live in.

i'm not defending the stupidity of riding the wrong way through traffic... but i would like to point out that us calling that "stupidity" is itself a reflection of our automobile bias. why don't we call cagers stupid for spending money on being in devices that cause global warming and ashtma; that cost large of sums of money to maintain and operate; and that are the LEADING cause of death in the US after smoking? why don't we just look at a driver and say "what an idiot"? because we are living within the dictated paradigm of automobile culture. and i say, whatever rocks that world, whatever causes attention and interest and intrigue is welcome by me.

Bikepacker67

Well written AND spot on!

Good job GPL!

gpljr75

No, I do not necessarily oppose "colorful" protest. I don't even oppose a principled creation of discomfort in order to point out a problem. I do oppose stupidity (in myself and in others), in as much as I am able to identify it. So don't take the lazy way out and let yourself be governed by yet another error of logic--namely, by arguing that because some disruptive behavior can be morally justified and effective, therefore any and all is morally justified and just as likely to be effective. If you can't tell the difference between say, the civil rights movement or what this Sheehan lady is doing, and what these bikers are doing--both in terms of the moral justification and the likely effect it will engender--it's sad.


No, it's not. It is a reflection of our being governed by law. The law grants cyclists to use the street lawfully. The law says whatever vehicles that traverse this route shall go this direction and not that one. It's stupid to violate that law.


Who's stopping you? You can say that all you want. You have freedom of speech. You can get creative and colorful in the process. You don't, however, have freedom to recklessly endager individuals, which is what these anarchist bicycle idiots are doing. I personally think a lot of motorists are idiots. It's just unfortunate that I now have think that about a certain sector of cyclists, too.


Let me ask you this: Certain hybrid automobiles, though not the utopian dream you're probably after, would go a long way toward reducing some of the very problems you've just listed. In all honesty, would you approve of hybrid automobile drivers ganging up and racing through the city this way? It would certainly cause attention. Wouldn't it rock "that" world a bit?

jtaylor

While I agree that the kind of riding glorified in this video (and others on the same Web site) is generally unintelligent and dangerous, I don't think it's appropriate to identify it as a political statement or rage against such activities as anarchist and illogical. In the same way that we would not want irate city drivers to identify all bikers (especially bike tourers) with the kinds of rash activites displayed by these cyclists (and, incidentally, in the same way that bikers would be irresponsible to associate all motorists with drunk drivers or road-ragers or those who go out of their way to intimidate or even bump bike riders), I would argue that it is similarly incorrect for bikers like those posting to this site to identify themselves with these city riders and thereby perceive some manner of threat to biking at large.

A few morons careening through city streets and sidewalks have no effect on us. So why bother to get up in arms over their behavior? Think about the purpose of biking: ultimately, it's to have fun, isn't it? Some, like commuters (of which I am one) do it also for the purpose of saving gas money or exercise, but would you bike even for those good reasons if it didn't also provide you with a significant measure of entertainment? I certainly wouldn't.

Well, these city riders are having fun, too. True, their idea of fun is different from mine, but so is that of bungee-jumpers. True, their idea of fun puts themselves at risk of bodily harm (and I would have to respectfully disagree with GPL that this kind of biking puts innocent bystanders or pedestrians at risk, though that might be open to discussion), but isn't that their own problem? Are they breaking the rules of the road? Certainly, at times. I showed a segment of one of the videos on the site to a friend whose sympathies lie along the lines of Bikepacker's and GPL's, and he responded with great indignity to the bikers' running a red light. My own (unspoken) response was, "Come on, you've never run a red light on your bike? What about a stop sign at a bike path/street intersection?" Breaking the cars' rules is not such a great crime, in my opinion.

I don't think these guys are making a political anti-car statement, and I certainly don't think they're making a conscious effort to make life more difficult for cyclists everywhere. Honestly, would that really even be possible? They're just having an adrenaline-boosting good time. I wouldn't do it, but if they want to, why should I jump all over them for doing it? I don't want anyone jumping all over me for what they might view as the irresponsibility of loading up my bike with enough gear to last me through a week and heading out on my own into the hills.

If you look around that Web site, you'll see that many of the videos are taken from well-established street races that have been going on for years. Is it an example of "how not to ride"? Perhaps. But is it a political demonstration or an example of blatant and borderline criminal irresponsibility, and does it reflect so poorly on bikers in general that we all should fear for the long-term continued legal existence of our mutual hobby? I don't think so.

Bikepacker67

Ya, and when they cause a motorist to swerve to avoid them, and that motorist then crashes into another car, it's hunkey-dory with you, eh?

These fools are putting OTHERS at risk. If they want an adrenaline boost, why don't go play chicken with a train.

Erick L

I'm not sure why this was posted in the touring forum. Maybe if they had panniers or pulled a BOB...

gnz

Ok, here goes another lengty reply...

These guys should come and ride in Mexico City where they will find cars on the street behaving in the same erratic ways as they do in their video. If they survive, maybe they will come to appreciate having ORDER and RESPECT TO THE LAW on their streets. You people in developed countries have even bike lanes, we are sooo far from having something like that, we barely have actual LANES in some streets...

Once just out of curiosity I rode with the critical massers in Vancouver Canada, they say are protesting, but protesting what really?, cyclists on the streets over there already have order, they are respected, they have lanes, they have clean well maintained streets, they have the needed considerations within the law... yet while protesting they were ignoring red lights and arbitrarily blocking streets getting drivers and even policemen pissed off along the way.

Now, I do feel that necessity of fighting off the car centric culture that dominates the developed world, but ignoring the order we have come to achieve in some places is simply not the way to do it. My strategy is to use my bike all the time to go to all sorts of places, by seeing this, some people around me have come to realize their stupid dependency on cars and motorized transportation, they see me being fit, independent and different and that is appealing to some. I also do fight for my right to have space on the road while riding and that pisses off some drivers often, but hey, I'm confident is them who are wrong not me.

Just my 2c.

gpljr75

JTaylor,

The fact that I know you personally, and know you to have significantly better judgment in other areas of life, makes reading your post here all the more grievous to me.

The people praising these videos tend to have preachy slogans in their signatures and personal profiles. I'm responding to those who seem to think this is behavior is well and good, AND in line with the goals implied by those slogans. If the bikers who made these videos have no political motivation for doing so (it is extremely unlikely that that is the case) then okay, they're doing it to get a thrill. But that's just as bad if not worse because they ARE ENDANGERING PEOPLE BESIDES THEMSELVES. You know they are. In one of those videos, they're consuming large amounts of alcohol at check points. Biking anywhere near traffic or pedestrians in this manner while intoxicated is endangering people. Face it.

Imagine either of the two following scenarios: (1) Gun owners fed up with anti-gun laws in the major metropolitan areas decide to make a political statement by shooting stop signs in heavily populated areas. No pedestrian or motorist is ever hit. After all, these guys are skilled marksmen, and besides the whole point is to show that guns don't kill people; people who aim them at other people (as opposed to stop signs) do. (2) Gun owners find that they really don't have as much fun shooting in proper shooting ranges or hunting in the country. They discover it would be much more fun to shoot with the slight chance of hitting and injuring someone, or being shot themselves by the cops. So they go down town and shoot at signs. Every once in a while they drink a 40oz of beer and shoot some more. Occasionally they hit a vehicle, but they run away without getting caught.

Either scenario is bad.

You claim it's their own hides that are on the line, so why should we care. That's just patently false, as I've already argued. If you still think it is up for discussion, you should stand in the street and let someone ram you going that fast on the bike, then let us know if you still think its ambiguous whether anyone else's butt is on the line when people ride like this through the streets. In one of the videos, a biker flees a motorist after hitting, and presumably damaging, a vehicle. Who paid that bill? Furthermore, think for just a second beyond physical damage. Think of the legal hell that motorists will end up in when they injure or kill one of these idiots. What about when a driver hits the brakes or swerves to avoid one of these idiots and an accident between that vehicle and another ensues as a result. All because some selfish jerks or political jerks (whichever you think they are) were recklessly breaking the law.

Have those of us who object to this behavior ever run a red light? Sure. But if you can't tell the difference between slowing at an intersection and proceeding only when it there is clearly no vehicle about to enter the intersection, and what these guys do when they charge through them even when cars are plainly traversing them, then I really don't know what to tell you.

You don't want anyone jumping all over you for touring? Fine, but you're dealing in apples and oranges again. Have you noticed that FELLOW BIKERS are outraged at this behavior, whereas fellow bikers do not object to touring? It ought at least to cause you to stop and think a bit over whether your comparison is valid.

lala

Does this have anything to do with 'Touring? I don't think so. If anything it goes to Advocacy/Safety. I new meaning for Couch Surfing!

Kyle90

That was awesome when he smacked into the car and didn't care. I'd do the same thing, most likely. Were they chugging 40oz's at the pit stops?

barenakedbiker

Awesome Video!

Brian

I see dumb people.

jtaylor

Far be it from me to cause you grief, especially through something as innocuous as a forum posting. On the other hand, I would be interested to know just what aspect of my judgment you are questioning in this case. You seem to feel far more strongly about this issue than I do, so I'll leave off with a few final comments.

Regarding judgment: the bulk of the comments in your most recent post seem to be directed toward the issue of whether these bikers are putting people other than themselves at risk, either physically or legally. For the sake of goodwill, I will stipulate that hurtling through crowded walkways on a bike could cause injury to someone other than the biker. My question: does this explain the vitriolic nature of your reaction to the video?


As you know, I am not among this group.


Sorry, this does not follow. At least, not the way you're presenting your argument (lack of, actually). How can you say it's "extremely unlikely"? There's no basis for such a statement.


Interesting that you accuse me of dealing in apples and oranges when I at least am comparing one biking activity to another. You, on the other hand, are comparing one biking activity with an activity related to firearms and, evidently, severe mental disability (on the part of those partaking in said hypothetical activity, not yours ). With respect, I'd have to say that it is your comparison that is apples and oranges. Mine is more like . . . apples and crab apples.


Yes, I've noticed, and this goes to the heart of my point. Why the outrage? Annoyance, I can understand. Disagreement too. But outrage? Why? How is this personally hurting you or someone you care about to the point where it warrants outrage? What exactly is it that you are so angry about? Is it the potential harm caused to someone? Is it the audacity the guy had to attach a video camera to his helmet?

I think this post has probably gone on long enough (and thank you, Mr. Moderator, for moving it to the Advocacy & Safety forum, where it belongs). I said I'd stick to a few final comments, and I will. If you care to respond, I'll happily give you the last word.

Cheers!

randya

That was fun!

roadfix

These guys are insane.........but awesome video, I'll give 'em that.

mirona

I don't have much to say in this post and definitely won't be able to say it as well as the two of you. With that said, it seems that your question is, "How does it affect you?" Through the actions of these cyclists, other people (vehicle operators, pedestrians) may judge ALL cyclists to be like them. If you see FedEx trucks regularly running people off the road, you might think that FedEx has a problem with safe-driving practices. I can see the same type of judgements towards cyclists. The difference is the bike isn't very protective.

What if the people making these judgements decide that the next cyclist they see deserves to receive their wrath? That next cyclist could be you.