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  1. #1
    Donating member Richard D's Avatar
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    Yippee - maybe it will be enforced...

    Currently riding an MTB with a split personality - commuting, touring, riding for the sake of riding, on or off road :)

  2. #2
    The Flying Scot chewa's Avatar
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    Difficult to enforce Richard, but it would certainly be a good move.

    I see this morning that the CBI have said it's essential for businesses to be able to contact staff right away. Why? only 8 or 9 years ago virtually no-one had phones in their cars.
    plus je vois les hommes, plus j'admire les chiens

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  3. #3
    Grounded Inkwolf's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chewa
    I see this morning that the CBI have said it's essential for businesses to be able to contact staff right away. Why? only 8 or 9 years ago virtually no-one had phones in their cars.
    ....and the ones that did, sat in the BACK seat and talked, while the chauffeur did the driving!

  4. #4
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    It's about time!
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
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  5. #5
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Originally posted by chewa
    Difficult to enforce Richard...
    Not always. Sometimes the consequences enforce it.

    Unfortunately, the consequences too often involve the innocent.
    No worries

  6. #6
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Pilots have a saying, "aviate, navigate, communicate... in that order." I've often wondered why people lose their driving abilities while talking on their mobiles. I guess in the case of aviation, the topic of conversation and thus concentration is related to the operation of the aircraft whereas drivers gabbing on their phones are usually talking about things unrelated to what they're actually doing so their brains have trouble handling the context switching.

  7. #7
    We drive on the left. Dutchy's Avatar
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    Mobile phones have been illegal in cars for about 3 years now, although hand's free systems are encouraged as an alternative.

    The law is enforced with a $165AUD fine which I hear (from my mobile provider) is being increased to $250.

    Obviously there are still hundreds of people talking away on phones when driving, but as each one gets a stiff fine, they will re-think their actions.

    A lot of people criticise these laws, saying that they are only talking so what is the big deal, talking is legal after all. What they don't realise is that for every person talking on a phone there are as many people trying to SMS the world while driving also. I regularly see people driving manual cars, changing gears with the left hand while holding the phone with the right.

    Actually this morning I saw a woman brushing her hair with both hands while in motion at 60kph.

    People will learn when you start to hit their hip pocket.

    CHEERS.

    Mark
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  8. #8
    bac
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    Originally posted by Dutchy
    People will learn when you start to hit their hip pocket.

    CHEERS.

    Mark
    Yup, cash is still king! Unfortunately, I think that is precisely why we in the States have no law. The telecommunication industry has some pretty strong bribing err sorry lobbyist. Therefore, I see our only chance of enacting such a law is with a hands-free solution. This would satisfy the telecommunication industry, as they would be able to sell a new product to EVERYONE who currently uses their phone while driving. Oh, and as a byproduct, lives would be saved.

    Yes, it should work the other way, but Im being realistic!

  9. #9
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    Cool!--treat every phone-using driver like a king--a Rodney King, heh, heh, heh, chuckle.

  10. #10
    Ich bin ein Lowlander! toolfreak's Avatar
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    Good Move if acepted.
    In the Netherlands cellphone & driving is forbidden since march this year, i believe we followed Germany in this.
    The last two years accidents with cellphone & driving where more and more common, and i`m convinced about the negative effects in traffic.
    But as we go on, what about cellphone & cycling?
    Mark







    Dancevalley 2th of august 2003 -> JXL, Laidback luke, Sasha, John Digweed, Monica Krusse.....and on!

  11. #11
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    Distractions to driving or riding a bike for that matter must be a contributing factor to accidents. Cell phone use certainly is a distraction from the act of driving.

    Perhaps it should be outlawed. Perhaps sanctions should include fines or a reduced pay out from insurance if you have contributed in some way tho the accident.

    Yet, I wonder about the issue of other distractions. There are it seems to me quite a few.

    Reading billboards and signs.
    Watching aircraft land or take off.
    Reading Amber alerts on electronic message boards.
    Looking at scenery.
    Operating a radio or CD player.
    Tending to a cigarette.
    Finding loose change on the floor.
    Getting a map from the glove box.
    Looking in the rear view mirror.
    Talking to a passenger.
    Jossling around with a passenger.
    Rubbernecking an accident scene.
    Eating.
    Drinking.
    Tending to personal hygiene.
    Trying to locate the origin of a siren.
    Sleeping.
    Watching TV.
    Using a CB Radio.
    Disciplining children.

    Accidents happen, yet all ultimately have a cause.

    I am troubled by the notion tht there need be a seperate law for each distraction. Seems we should be able to determine when we can that an operator of a vehicle failed to maintain sufficient control over said vehicle and contributed to or caused the accident. I don't think it right that an accident not be someone's fault simply because the activity that distracted them was "legal."

    Carl

    Oh Yeah. I carry my cell phone on my Camelback. And yes, there have been times that I have answered it before coming to a complete stop.
    Just Peddlin' Around

  12. #12
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by webist
    Yet, I wonder about the issue of other distractions. There are it seems to me quite a few.
    One could easily add a myriad of things to this list and not just for drivers either. It seems to me that a driver who does not have the mental faculties to handle a proper scan and multi-tasking that operating a vehicle requires should not be out driving. Instead of simply banning things left and right, I believe that greater emphasis should be placed on rigorous initial and recurrant training. People are too casual about driving. They believe it's a right. There are some whoi have a passion for it and study and maintain the skills but in general, people get behind the wheel of a car and don't really think about what they're doing. The only way to increase safety is to increase training and skill base. Look at one of the safest forms of transportation. Pilots must undergo a biennual flight review every two years for instance. And they must also prove currency... for VFR it's 3 take-offs and landings within 90 days... 3 at night if you intend to fly at night and there more on top of that if you intend to fly IFR. Even with that, some pilots consider the training and skill-upkeep requirements too lax. A good pilot is always in training. A pilot is always a student pilot. Many pilots are appalled by how easy it is for people to obtain driving priviledges. I'm all in favour of raising the bar for driving requirements. It could also promote things like public transit and cycling among other things.


    Oh Yeah. I carry my cell phone on my Camelback. And yes, there have been times that I have answered it before coming to a complete stop.
    I usually carry a cellphone with me when I ride but I've always stopped before answering it. I actually use it as an activity notifier. Since the phone can do SMS (I can't wait for a sane GSM/GPRS environment), I use the AIM hooks to register my phone with the IM server. I have recommended to people to check my AIM status so they can see that if I've registered with my phone, I'm somewhere in transit. I dunno if it's possible but it'd also be great if you could set an away message. My phone also supports a crude form of filtering based on call profiles and caller-ID. When I'm out riding, only VERY IMPORTANT callers will actually ring it.

    I've posed this question in another thread but hadn't really seen a response so I'll pose it again now. How do people feel about FRS radios for cycling? If you've used them would you care to sharee your experiences? I've picked up two for cheap (Audiovox FR-530 in a two-pack blister pack for $12 at Staples... no sub-audio code/tones though but has built-in VOX) and plan to pick up a pair of cheap earbud/mics.

  13. #13
    bac
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    Originally posted by webist
    Distractions to driving or riding a bike for that matter must be a contributing factor to accidents. Cell phone use certainly is a distraction from the act of driving.
    This part of your post I agree with ... the rest ... well.

    Yes, there may be drivers who can operate a cell phone and still drive reasonably well. However, given the demographic of drivers that I see on the road ... let's just say that most are dangerous enough without sporting a cell phone in their ear. All the distractions that you mention in your post are quite ENOUGH! We simply don't need another one. If you want to make or receive a call while in your car, it's pretty simple - pull over. Can you not spare the 5 minutes?

    Is your phone conversation really worth the risk of killing others on our busy roadways? Your opinion may very well change when a cell phone yielding "driver" kills your mother/brother/father/son/friend, etc. Don't think for a minute that it won't happen - it happens MANY times EVERY day.

    The bottom line is that it's simply not worth the risk.

  14. #14
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    Originally posted by khuon


    I believe that greater emphasis should be placed on rigorous initial and recurrant training. People are too casual about driving. They believe it's a right.
    I agree with this. In Arizona, there is a program which kicks in when your points get too high that allows points to be taken off your driving record by attending classes.

    Haven't had the need to attend since I have no points or violations. Perhaps though, training on the rights and responsibilities of drivers vis a vis cyclists could be added to this training.

    I think I'll look into this a bit more.

    Carl
    Just Peddlin' Around

  15. #15
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    Originally posted by bac


    All the distractions that you mention in your post are quite ENOUGH! We simply don't need another one. If you want to make or receive a call while in your car, it's pretty simple - pull over. Can you not spare the 5 minutes?

    Is your phone conversation really worth the risk of killing others on our busy roadways?

    The bottom line is that it's simply not worth the risk.
    My point is that we need to modify driver behavior in order to direct their attention to the task of operating the motor vehicle rather than concentration on the many distractions.

    We don't see articles stressing that an accident was caused by the driver eating or looking down at the new catsup stain on his or her clothing. We also don't have a seperate law against eating while driving. We also don't have cops pulling people over and writing a ticket becasue the driver was grabbing a french fry every few seconds.

    Let me make it clear that I approve of sanctions against driving while distracted, especially by cell phones.

    I simply wonder whether or not cyclists and others are also being killed by motorists who are distracted by lighting a cigarette, combing hair, eating, changing stations on a radio or otherwise doing something which takes concentration away from driving. I also wonder about the practical solutions to these issues. The solution certainly isn't a long series of seperate ordinances against each separate activity. Is it?

    Carl
    Just Peddlin' Around

  16. #16
    We drive on the left. Dutchy's Avatar
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    I simply wonder whether or not cyclists and others are also being killed by motorists who are distracted by lighting a cigarette, combing hair, eating, changing stations on a radio or otherwise doing something which takes concentration away from driving.
    As someone who has driven for almost 20 years, I feel the main reason for the vast majority of accidents is : lack of attention, which could be one of the things you have pointed out.

    The main problem with mobile phones here is that EVERY kid over 12 has one, the phones are free, all you have to do is pay $10-20, and you get half hour free talk time per month. These kids are now getting licences and still yapping on the phone. It has to stop.

    CHEERS.

    Mark
    I'd rather be riding.

  17. #17
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Originally posted by khuon
    ....I've posed this question in another thread but hadn't really seen a response so I'll pose it again now. How do people feel about FRS radios for cycling? If you've used them would you care to sharee your experiences? I've picked up two for cheap (Audiovox FR-530 in a two-pack blister pack for $12 at Staples... no sub-audio code/tones though but has built-in VOX) and plan to pick up a pair of cheap earbud/mics.
    FRS's ROCK!! Unfortunatly with yours you will find yourself with a LOT of cross-chatter if you ever decide to use them in an environment where there is a lot of FRS traffic: ( ie: a theme park or convention) I don't mean to bad mouth your purchase but it sounds like you got taken by a POS impulse buy (The "blister pack" just screams it.). Before I bought mine (Motorola T-289's with call tones and quiet codes) I did a LOT of research (read reviews, comparo shopped, etc) and after the rebates (and admittedly a employee discount) I got mine for about $5 including batteries. Sorry about the rant and I really hope they work for your needs. But, back to the Question At Hand. FRS's are extremely handy whenever your riding with a group of people at different skill levels in fact my girlfriend and I use ours quite regularly for trail riding and the uses listed above. Heck we even use ours when we do laundry; she goes over to the laundry room (across the apt complex) and scouts out some machines and if there are sufficient washers she calls and I carry the Giant Duffle Bag of Death down so we can can do the laundry.

  18. #18
    DEADBEEF khuon's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Raiyn
    [COLOR=blue] FRS's ROCK!! Unfortunatly with yours you will find yourself with a LOT of cross-chatter if you ever decide to use them in an environment where there is a lot of FRS traffic: ( ie: a theme park or convention)
    Yeah... I have been keeping an eye on FRS technology for a while now. I knew the FR-530 wasn't a great radio but I did want something cheap for an upcoming ride that is pretty much back-country so I'm not likely to get much cross-talk. I'm keeping my eye on the Garmin Rino 120 which has combined GPS and FRS/GMRS and allows you to beam your position to other Rinos. I like the idea of preparing route maps and downloading them to the unit too.


    But, back to the Question At Hand. FRS's are extremely handy whenever your riding with a group of people at different skill levels in fact my girlfriend and I use ours quite regularly for trail riding and the uses listed above.
    Do you use an earpiece? Is it sensitive to wind noise when riding? How well does VOX work when riding, do you get lots of "mis-keys" or "missed-keys"?

  19. #19
    Every lane is a bike lane Chris L's Avatar
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    I wouldn't get too excited. They brought in this law in Queensland about five years ago. I've never once seen it enforced.
    "I am never going to flirt with idleness again" - Roy Keane
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  20. #20
    bac
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    Originally posted by webist
    My point is that we need to modify driver behavior in order to direct their attention to the task of operating the motor vehicle rather than concentration on the many distractions.Carl
    Yup, I couldn't agree more - that is the ultimate and best solution. However, this is simply not going to happen. For some reason, we as a nation just aren't interested in modifying driver's behavior in terms of paying attention to the act of driving. Enforcement hasn't happened pre-cell phone era; therefore, I just don't see this type of enforcement happening now.

    However, it's easy to enforce the cell phone problem. If you're using the phone while driving, you are in violation. It's black and white with no gray.

  21. #21
    山馬鹿 Spire's Avatar
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    I find this sentance particularly true

    "The AA said the current laws were adequate. "We cannot have a law banning the use of mobiles without one to ban eating, smoking, drinking, applying make-up or shaving for that matter," it said. "

    I believe that it is not necessarily cell phones that cause most of the problems, but not driving with any sort of due care and attention. Perhaps tightening that law as well would make sense.
    http://www.cyclistsroadmap.com/eng/ - Cyclists' road map. Checkout which roads are good for cycling and rate roads in your area.

  22. #22
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    I have no doubt that this is/will be another unenforceable or unenforced law. Maybe it will be "selectively" enforced. The rediculousness of these types of laws is a matter for seperate discussion.

    Maybe they should pass a law that you have to have your cell number on a bumper sticker and the cop could call you when you drive by. If you answer - you're busted.

    I think law enforcement should set up at the exits of drive through eating establishments and bust folks who eat while driving as well.

    Perhaps we should all be required to have video transmitters in our cars that cops could tune into when following you to bust you for changing radio stations without pulling over first.

    They may have changed it by now, but 20 years ago it was still illegal to operate a motor vehicle in Pennsylvania without a flag man 20 yards in front of the car.

    Might I venture to opine that by far the majority of "accidents" on the roadways are caused by carelessness and could have been prevented by concentration on the task at hand?

    Some folks simply believe that there is a "government solution" for every ill.

    Carl
    Just Peddlin' Around

  23. #23
    bac
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    Originally posted by webist
    They may have changed it by now, but 20 years ago it was still illegal to operate a motor vehicle in Pennsylvania without a flag man 20 yards in front of the car.
    Carl
    Well Carl, given the driving abilities and general inattentiveness of the "drivers" I've witnessed here in the Keystone state, I think this is a still a very GOOD idea!


  24. #24
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    Originally posted by bac


    Well Carl, given the driving abilities and general inattentiveness of the "drivers" I've witnessed here in the Keystone state, I think this is a still a very GOOD idea!

    Just Peddlin' Around

  25. #25
    I drink your MILKSHAKE Raiyn's Avatar
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    Originally posted by khuon
    ....Do you use an earpiece? Is it sensitive to wind noise when riding? How well does VOX work when riding, do you get lots of "mis-keys" or "missed-keys"?

    No, we don't use earpieces for the same reason that we don't use headphones, you don't want your hearing blocked even if it's just one side. You never know what you will miss when your hearing is blocked. Our solution was for her to use a Bike Holster (Radio Shack 42.262 Good luck finding one. If you do it WILL be cheap) that straps the radio to the stem / handlebar junction. I use either the OEM clip or another holster from the Shack to attach it to the straps on my Camelbak. We don't use VOX because we would be needlessly be broadcasting expletives on technical trails or the constant "Hey, how ya doing" on the rail-trail rides. If we need to talk we reach out and push the Big Black Button. "Missed-keys"?? I'm not sure what you mean by that but the proper technique for transmitting on any radio is to key the mike count (silently) 1,2 and then talk.

    One other note: GMRS require a FCC license to operate due to thier increased broadcast power. (It used to be the same with FRS) You will also be required to broadcast your call sign while using the radio ie: This is Delta Bubba one-two calling Tango Cornholio seven-four On the bright side the license covers all family members living under the same roof.
    Last edited by Raiyn; 08-24-02 at 01:19 AM.

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