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  1. #1
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    You got doored...or you doored you?

    In another thread, someone wrote about "getting doored", and I responded in my usual obnoxious manner:


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Sorry to hear about your crash, glad you're okay, but don't you mean you doored you?

    Riding in door zones and complaining about "getting doored" is like playing Russian Roulette and complaining about "getting shot".

    Russian Roulette players don't get shot, they shoot themselves. It's only a matter of when.
    Door zone cyclists don't get doored, they door themselves. It's only a matter of when.
    The difference is not just semantic, it reflects a different way of looking at dooring, a different mentality, especially in terms of responsibility.

    I call on all cyclists in this forum to refrain from using the "getting doored" terminology (and the associated mentality), and that we start recognizing the behavior for what it is: dooring ourselves.

    If you collide into a door that is opened in front of you, you are not getting doored by the door opener, you are dooring yourself. In short, that's what you get for riding in the door zone. And a bike lane in the door zone is no excuse - stay the hell out of it.

    Please ride at least five feet to the left of parked cars.

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    Give me a break, dude. I know what you're trying to say -- if we all just used the full lane all the time and were total VC monkeys, we'd never be in the door zone, and we'd never get doored.

    That's a nice cozy sentiment and all, but it's, well, stupid. People in cars get doored, too, and they use the full lane. People stop halfway into curb lanes, then jump out huffing and puffing with a load of dry-cleaning in their arms. People turn on their emergency flashers and double-park. People throw open doors at intersections to spit or pour out their two day old Mountain Dew. There are a lot of ways to get injured by cars doors, whether you're a cyclist or a motorist, and they are universally not the fault of the doored party.

    Bottom line: in my opinion, there is no One True Way to operate a bicycle, and the ability to adapt to traffic and road conditions will carry you a lot further than repeating the mental flatulence of Forester or patting yourself on the back for being the self-appointed VC police.

    - Warren

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Suit yourself.

    As for myself, I guess I'll just keep on being stupid and staying out of door zones, period (it's not that hard once you get used to it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Suit yourself.

    As for myself, I guess I'll just keep on being stupid and staying out of door zones, period (it's not that hard once you get used to it).
    This response doesn't seem to even remotely apply to what I said to you. Stop preaching. You're not always right, bro.

    - Warren

  5. #5
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Good intentions, Serge, I know, but the delivery sucks. Being obnoxious is not a character trait to be proud of.

    By the way, another example of you fighting over philosophical terminology, with nothing practical coming of it. You come off as someone eager to "blame the victim," even if this is not your intention. To chastise someone who has, yes, "just been doored"...; well it's just in bad taste. Trust that your fellow cyclist has a brain.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  6. #6
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Well then, one of us is not understand the post of the other.

    My point is based on the premise that the only way to get doored is by being in a door zone of a car, and it's perfectly possible to avoid cycling in door zones. I'm sharing my own understanding and experience, not preaching. What are you doing?

  7. #7
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Warren, fine, I'll address it in detail.


    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    Give me a break, dude. I know what you're trying to say -- if we all just used the full lane all the time and were total VC monkeys, we'd never be in the door zone, and we'd never get doored.
    No, all I'm trying to say is that if we stay out of door zones we would never door ourselves (with the implication that it is practically and reasonably possible to stay out of door zones).


    That's a nice cozy sentiment and all, but it's, well, stupid.
    What's stupid about it?


    People in cars get doored, too, and they use the full lane.
    People who drive their cars in the door zones of others cars door themselves (or their cars) too. I advocate driving cars as well as riding bicyles (and motorcycles) outside of door zones too. You should never have to rely on anyone looking before they open their door - people open their doors without looking all too often.


    People stop halfway into curb lanes, then jump out huffing and puffing with a load of dry-cleaning in their arms.
    And how do you get doored by someone like that if you're riding outside of their door zone?


    People turn on their emergency flashers and double-park.
    And how do you get doored by someone like that if you're riding outside of their door zone?


    People throw open doors at intersections to spit or pour out their two day old Mountain Dew.
    And how do you get doored by someone like that if you're riding outside of their door zone?


    There are a lot of ways to get injured by cars doors, whether you're a cyclist or a motorist, and they are universally not the fault of the doored party.
    Who said anything about fault? My point is that in order to ride (or drive) into an open door, you have to be operating in the door zone of that vehicle. Therefore, if you avoid door zones, you won't door yourself.


    Bottom line: in my opinion, there is no One True Way to operate a bicycle,
    I agree.


    and the ability to adapt to traffic and road conditions will carry you a lot further than repeating the mental flatulence of Forester or patting yourself on the back for being the self-appointed VC police.
    I also agree, but fail to see the relevance of this point to this thread.

  8. #8
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
    By the way, another example of you fighting over philosophical terminology, with nothing practical coming of it.
    I see. There is nothing practical about staying out of door zones. Right.

    I can't believe I'm going so much grief for simply advocating the avoidance of door zones!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    My point is based on the premise that the only way to get doored is by being in a door zone of a car, and it's perfectly possible to avoid cycling in door zones.
    And my point is that there any many situations where it's impossible to avoid being at least briefly in door zones, because there are as many idiot motorists as there are idiot cyclists. People do a lot of really weird things in cars that are definitely not "vehicular," particularly in dense urban areas, and those actions defeat the entire notion that being VC will keep you perfectly safe from doors. VC is not a panacea, and preaching that it is is counter-productive.

    Motorists are legally obligated to look for oncoming traffic, of any kind, before opening doors. While I agree that cyclists should do everything possible to avoid being in the door zone to begin with, that's really not always possible in practice. Since you seem to be a fan of purely philosophical debate and arguing about unnaturally perfect scenarios, I guess I should expect you to argue that in a world of perfect motorists, the perfect cyclist should never get doored. Over here in reality-land, I find it reprehensible that you would ever blame a cyclist for a motorists' legal negligence. What's next? Girls who get raped should accept responsibility, since they wore a miniskirt? After all, in a perfect world they should never go to places where ******* might go.

    - Warren

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    Who said anything about fault?! You did!


    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    In short, that's what you get for riding in the door zone.
    Do you actually believe the things you write here? Or are you just a troll?

    - Warren

  11. #11
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Well, I didn't use the word fault, that's all I meant.

    But if you want me to say it, fine: if you ride into a door, it's your fault for riding in a door zone, especially if you are aware of the hazards of riding in door zones, and you are choosing to take the risk anyway.

    There.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Well, I didn't use the word fault, that's all I meant.
    You should run for president.

    - Warren

  13. #13
    Huachuca Rider webist's Avatar
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    I doored my son-in-law's bike once while it leaned against the wall in his garage. Instead of apologizing, had I been more quick witted, I could have told him the bike shouldn't have been there.
    Just Peddlin' Around

  14. #14
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    And my point is that there any many situations where it's impossible to avoid being at least briefly in door zones, because there are as many idiot motorists as there are idiot cyclists. People do a lot of really weird things in cars that are definitely not "vehicular," particularly in dense urban areas, and those actions defeat the entire notion that being VC will keep you perfectly safe from doors. VC is not a panacea, and preaching that it is is counter-productive.

    Motorists are legally obligated to look for oncoming traffic, of any kind, before opening doors. While I agree that cyclists should do everything possible to avoid being in the door zone to begin with, that's really not always possible in practice. Since you seem to be a fan of purely philosophical debate and arguing about unnaturally perfect scenarios, I guess I should expect you to argue that in a world of perfect motorists, the perfect cyclist should never get doored. Over here in reality-land, I find it reprehensible that you would ever blame a cyclist for a motorists' legal negligence. What's next? Girls who get raped should accept responsibility, since they wore a miniskirt? After all, in a perfect world they should never go to places where ******* might go.

    - Warren
    Good Lord.

    First of all, none of this applies at slow pedestrian speeds of under, say 6 mph, where the ability to stop in time and avoid injury is not a problem.

    All I've written about in this thread is about avoiding door zones. The relevance or even meaning of non sequitors like "VC is not a panacea, and preaching that it is is counter-productive" is beyond me, and is the only counter-productive preaching going on here.

    You obviously have an ax to grind.

    I disagree with your premise that it's not always possible to avoid cycling (above ped speeds) in door zones. I assure you, it is, and it's not even that difficult. Sometimes it's a tradeoff between slowing down (or even stopping) or taking the risk, but it's always the cyclist's choice.

    ****? Please. What's next? A Nazi analogy?

    Yes, technically it's the door operator's legal responsibility to check before they open the door. But counting on them doing so is stupid, and irresponsible, and, yes, it's your fault if you do anyway and get injured as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    Yes, technically it's the door operator's legal responsibility to check before they open the door. But counting on them doing so is stupid, and irresponsible, and, yes, it's your fault if you do anyway and get injured as a result.
    It's your fault if someone else breaks a law that was intended to protect your safety, eh?

    Is it your fault if someone else drives drunk and runs you over? Is it your fault if your company fails to use proper safety procedures and you get electrocuted?

    My **** analogy, while perhaps tasteless, is appropriate. Your entire premise is that if people didn't put themselves in danger, they wouldn't be in danger. This is exactly the same argument I've heard many people make about **** victims, and it's a pathetic, short-sighted attempt at logic.

    Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

    - Warren

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    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    It's your fault if someone else breaks a law that was intended to protect your safety, eh?
    Sometimes. It depends. Just because it's your fault if someone else breaks a law (in this case the door opening law) that was intended to protect your safety, it does not necessarily follow that it's your fault if someone breaks ANY law that was intended to protect your safety.


    Your entire premise is that if people didn't put themselves in danger, they wouldn't be in danger
    You're missing a key component of my premise: If people didn't put themselves in danger within reason, they wouldn't be in danger.

    It is not reasonable for women to stay at home or not wear skirts when they go out (or whatever unreasonable expectations are made of women who have been blamed for being raped) in order to avoid getting raped.

    It IS reasonable for cyclists to stay out of door zones in order to avoid dooring themselves.

    If you can't see the logic in that, the help you need is beyond me.

    Cuckoo indeed!

    I'm done here.

  17. #17
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    It's your fault if someone else breaks a law that was intended to protect your safety, eh?

    Is it your fault if someone else drives drunk and runs you over? Is it your fault if your company fails to use proper safety procedures and you get electrocuted?

    My **** analogy, while perhaps tasteless, is appropriate. Your entire premise is that if people didn't put themselves in danger, they wouldn't be in danger. This is exactly the same argument I've heard many people make about **** victims, and it's a pathetic, short-sighted attempt at logic.

    Cuckoo! Cuckoo!

    - Warren
    Warren--do you actually ride a bike? I am finding it hard to believe that you find it impossible to stay out of the door zone. I ride in traffic constantly and I never never never never never find it necessary to ride in a door zone. Why do you have such a problem with this? Why do you refuse to accept responsibility for your own behavior? Why do you expect a cager who doesn't even know you to be more responsible for your life and health than you are? Watch where you're going, dude, shether you are in a car, on a bike or on foot. Be responsible and live!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    it does not necessarily follow that it's your fault if someone breaks ANY law that was intended to protect your safety.
    It doesn't make any sense for anyone to be at fault when someone breaks a law intended for their protection. That's why such laws exist, Einstein.

    But I get it now. You, Helmet Head, are the sole arbiter of which laws can or cannot be broken and who deserves fault for any such infractions, regardless of the laws, the intent of the laws, or the circumstances. Classic.


    You're missing a key component of my premise: If people didn't put themselves in danger within reason, they wouldn't be in danger.
    Once again, you're propping yourself up as the sole arbiter of what is or is not reasonable. This cop-out does not make your argument any stronger; in fact it is only weakened.

    - Warren

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    Warren--do you actually ride a bike? I am finding it hard to believe that you find it impossible to stay out of the door zone. I ride in traffic constantly and I never never never never never find it necessary to ride in a door zone. Why do you have such a problem with this? Why do you refuse to accept responsibility for your own behavior? Why do you expect a cager who doesn't even know you to be more responsible for your life and health than you are? Watch where you're going, dude, shether you are in a car, on a bike or on foot. Be responsible and live!
    What? I'm all about cyclists taking actions to reduce their risk exposure. I've said that several times already. Cyclists should do everything possible to avoid riding in door zones. That's a great message, and I concur completely. What I disagree with is Helmet Head's assertion that the cyclist is actually at fault when such accidents happen.

    - Warren

  20. #20
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    What? I'm all about cyclists taking actions to reduce their risk exposure. I've said that several times already. Cyclists should do everything possible to avoid riding in door zones. That's a great message, and I concur completely. What I disagree with is Helmet Head's assertion that the cyclist is actually at fault when such accidents happen.

    - Warren
    Whose fault is it?

    Did the devil make them do it?

    Please give one or more examples of why you would be forced to ride in a door zone.

  21. #21
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    Give me a break, dude. I know what you're trying to say -- if we all just used the full lane all the time and were total VC monkeys, we'd never be in the door zone, and we'd never get doored.

    That's a nice cozy sentiment and all, but it's, well, stupid. People in cars get doored, too, and they use the full lane. People stop halfway into curb lanes, then jump out huffing and puffing with a load of dry-cleaning in their arms. People turn on their emergency flashers and double-park. People throw open doors at intersections to spit or pour out their two day old Mountain Dew. There are a lot of ways to get injured by cars doors, whether you're a cyclist or a motorist, and they are universally not the fault of the doored party.

    Bottom line: in my opinion, there is no One True Way to operate a bicycle, and the ability to adapt to traffic and road conditions will carry you a lot further than repeating the mental flatulence of Forester or patting yourself on the back for being the self-appointed VC police.

    - Warren

    Wow, lots of real life examples that just are not covered in the "books." So much for book learnin'. OK, "stay out of the door zone..". so apparenly that means at least 5 feet away from the side of any vehicle, no matter where they are.

    My favorite is the idiots that just open their doors to dump ashtrays on the side of the road. I'm not likely to be doored by them, but they still leave a stinking dirty mess... for all of us to deal with.

  22. #22
    Warning:Mild Peril Treespeed's Avatar
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    I shouldn't wade in here, but I can't resist.

    In Cali. the law doesn't recognize the door zone as a hazard. Since it is the responsibility of the driver to look out for cyclists, then we are still required to ride as far right as possible. I got this speech from a cop who pulled me over. While I disagree and will take my chances with passing traffic it's still a bit of a legal gray area. While it's left up to the cyclist to determine what is a hazard, apparently the cop gets to chime in on this topic too.

    Also, watch out for those passenger doors too.
    Non semper erit aestas.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    Please give one or more examples of why you would be forced to ride in a door zone.
    I've had motorists swerve out of the traffic lane, then halfway into the curb lane right in front of me. There's no time to look back and see if you can change lanes to the left; there's no time to hit the brakes and come to a (controlled) stop; there's no way to get around the car to the right. The only way out is to move as far left as you can and go around the car, hoping the driver doesn't fling open his door at just the wrong time. Maybe you have enough room, maybe you really don't.

    It's entirely possible to avoid door zones of legally parked cars. It's entirely impossible to avoid door zones completely (both driver and passenger side) of cars that are breaking the law by stopping illegally in the street, or otherwise acting unpredictably. Traffic is a dynamic thing. When other people break laws, accidents can happen. (Accidents almost never happen when no one breaks a law; this is why laws exist, to clearly indicate safe behavior and to fix blame when accidents occur.)

    - Warren

  24. #24
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chroot
    I've had motorists swerve out of the traffic lane, then halfway into the curb lane right in front of me. There's no time to look back and see if you can change lanes to the left; there's no time to hit the brakes and come to a (controlled) stop; there's no way to get around the car to the right. The only way out is to move as far left as you can and go around the car, hoping the driver doesn't fling open his door at just the wrong time. Maybe you have enough room, maybe you really don't.

    It's entirely possible to avoid door zones of legally parked cars. It's entirely impossible to avoid door zones completely (both driver and passenger side) of cars that are breaking the law by stopping illegally in the street, or otherwise acting unpredictably. Traffic is a dynamic thing. When other people break laws, accidents can happen. (Accidents almost never happen when no one breaks a law; this is why laws exist, to clearly indicate safe behavior and to fix blame when accidents occur.)

    - Warren
    Your example doesn't really have anything to do with door zones as we ordinarily consider them. Door zone refers to the area up to 5 feet (give or take) away from the side of parked (or at leat nonmoving) cars. Sorry, but that is the only reasonable definition. The cager who pulled the bonehead maneuver you described doesn't fall into that definition, does he? This character is a danger in many ways, dooring probably the least of them.

    Maybe, just a little bit, you were trolling us? (just maybe?)

  25. #25
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    Better to be in the door zone than in the front-bumper-of-a-50MPH-truck-zone. Now back to your regularly scheduled smug "Vehicular Cycling" dogma blabber.
    --
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