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Old 09-13-05, 12:03 PM   #1
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Another cyclist down... when will it stop?

it just saddens my heart to see this on the front page of SFGate.com. beside the day starting off gloomy.. but after reading this.. it really sadden my heart as well as more worries about going out riding with my wife. i always have to keep looking backwards to see if she's ok and what not...

here is the story: SANTA ROSA: Big-rig truck hits, kills female bicyclist
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Old 09-13-05, 12:08 PM   #2
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i hate reading about stuff like this - it happens way too often.

they say they are trying to determine who's at fault. if she was in a crosswalk, doesn't that require the truck to stop? i mean, crosswalk = right of way for pedestrians, right?

"Hines' bicycle was in a crosswalk when she was hit, Schlief said."
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Old 09-13-05, 12:12 PM   #3
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Sketchy info from which to determine fault, but the fact that she was entering the roadway from the sidewalk sounds problematic.
"Witnesses told police that Hines, who had been riding her bicycle on the sidewalk, turned into the road at the West Third Street intersection. At that moment, a delivery truck for Clover Stornetta dairy was making a right turn on a green light. Hines' bicycle was in a crosswalk when she was hit, Schlief said."

Don't know the story here, but bikes aren't made for sidewalks and riding from the sidewalk into the road can often be a problem.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:18 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Don't know the story here, but bikes aren't made for sidewalks and riding from the sidewalk into the road can often be a problem.
Exactly. It sounds like the same situation we had we a recent death in nearby Vienna.

When will it stop? Probably never. But it will slow down when ALL cyclists quit riding as if they are pedestrians, so they will better understand traffic flows, and motorists (and pedestrians too) will get more accustomed to seeing us where we belong, behaving like we're supposed to behave.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:26 PM   #5
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When will it stop? Probably never. But it will slow down when ALL cyclists quit riding as if they are pedestrians, so they will better understand traffic flows, and motorists (and pedestrians too) will get more accustomed to seeing us where we belong, behaving like we're supposed to behave.
And when and if the mentality ever changes from "get a bigger motor vehicle to protect myself from the others in their big motor vehicles" to "everyone is a person, and has their own rights".

For now it appears that the one with the most metal feels they own everything and can do anything. And unfortunately they most often win.

[N.B. Notwithstanding that the previous poster is probably right on regarding possible errors by cyclists.]
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Old 09-13-05, 12:28 PM   #6
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The story is tragic, loss of life always is. But if the cyclist wasn't obeying traffic laws it is not exactly a clear cut case of someone being run down by a vehicle. Just this morning I was walking to work and was almost hit from behind by a lady on a mountain bike, on the sidewalk, on the wrong side of the road.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:30 PM   #7
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If you are off your bike walking it across a crosswalk, you're a pedestrian and have right of way. If you're riding your bike across a crosswalk you have no more right of way than any other vehicle. If you're riding your bike on the sidewalk, you're breaking the law in most states.

It's especially sad for us because we all feel bad when someone on a bicycle dies, but we should also understand that we have to take responsibility for our own safety. The chances are slim that motorists are going to do that for us. I really feel when this happens to a child, because much of the time it's because their parents weren't properly supervising them and didn't teach them the proper way to ride.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:38 PM   #8
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She was likely within her rights to ride on the sidewalk, but unfortunately this is another reminder that doing so is not always necessarily safe, and is frequently less safe than riding on the road, despite what seems to be many people's intuition. Post this in A&S and you'll get an earful on that (and how to "solve" it).

As for riding with your wife: teach her not to ride on the sidewalk, not to weave in and out of parked cars, signal, ride on the right side of the street, etc.. The SJ Mercury News had an article on this recently with some actual good safety tips. Kinda going through the same thing with my wife . . .
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Old 09-13-05, 12:38 PM   #9
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in a very philosphoical way, i believe that most if not all accidents involving an automobile or truck is the driver's fault. if you remove the artifical laws that society creates and look at it as a case involving human interaction - it's the human who chooses to wrap itself in a multi-ton machine and barrel down the street who has turned it from a 'scratch on the knee accident' to a deadly situation. said simply - if he wasn't in a truck and they collided in an intersection on a bike or just walking around - nobody would be dead right now.

just my feeling...
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Old 09-13-05, 12:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by timmhaan
in a very philosphoical way, i believe that most if not all accidents involving an automobile or truck is the driver's fault. if you remove the artifical laws that society creates and look at it as a case involving human interaction - it's the human who chooses to wrap itself in a multi-ton machine and barrel down the street who has turned it from a 'scratch on the knee accident' to a deadly situation. said simply - if he wasn't in a truck and they collided in an intersection on a bike or just walking around - nobody would be dead right now.

just my feeling...
I am not attacking you in any way just giving an opposing view. From my own experience as a cyclist who occassionally needs to drive, I think that everyone on the roads whether it is car, bike or pedestrians is responsible for being aware of the situation. If I am driving my car and a cyclist darts in front of me from off the curb and between two parked cars it is not 100% my fault as the driver if I strike the cyclist. If I am cycling along and I go from the road onto the sidewalk for whatever reason and then dart off the sidewalk across an intersection and I get hit because a driver turning right could not see me, I am at fault.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:46 PM   #11
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When gas is $5.oo a gallon, it will become less frequent.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:51 PM   #12
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The United States is the only place in the world where the excuse "I didn't see him/her/it" means anything other than that person is absolutely liable.

What a shame.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:51 PM   #13
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yes it seems this case is problematic.. if she was walking the bike over then it would be a different case.

i think the reason why some people ride on sidewalks is that a) they have fears of riding on the road with cars whooshing by at 25+mph. & b) lack of education that bicycle = vehicles in most states and vehicles isn't allowed on sidewalks.

i'm trying to teach my wife some rules of riding.. so hopefully she'll learn to be safe.

everyone out there... ride safe...
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Old 09-13-05, 12:54 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmhaan
in a very philosphoical way, i believe that most if not all accidents involving an automobile or truck is the driver's fault. if you remove the artifical laws that society creates and look at it as a case involving human interaction - it's the human who chooses to wrap itself in a multi-ton machine and barrel down the street who has turned it from a 'scratch on the knee accident' to a deadly situation. said simply - if he wasn't in a truck and they collided in an intersection on a bike or just walking around - nobody would be dead right now.

just my feeling...
Uhhh yeah, and if there were only bicycles and pedestrians, than any accident would be the bicycists faullt with that logic. I suppose that would be a nice dreamland, but reality isn't philosphoical unfortunately. As for the woman, in a controlled intersection, if she was crossing on a red light or not yielding to traffic that has the right of way, then she is at fault. A crosswalk doesn't always guaruntee you the right of way.
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Old 09-13-05, 12:59 PM   #15
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i was never talking about reality. i'm just saying if hypotheically you could look just at the incident in a human versus human matter, i still believe the driver is more at fault. he made the situation dangerous. he choose to operate a vechical that he can't see out of and can't stop in time. if he wasn't in the truck making the turn that woman would not be dead. that's all i'm saying.

in reality, everyone has to be accountable for themselves, and we have laws to live by. we have to, otherwise there would be choas. often times there are differences between what i believe is truly "right" and what is technically "right". technically the woman may be at fault, i agree.
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Old 09-13-05, 01:00 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by puddin' legs
When gas is $5.oo a gallon, it will become less frequent.
Unlikly gas here is hovering at 3 a gallon little less little more you know the drill raise on one day lower on next etc. Well last night im at a stop sign and hear some one yell "get the f*** out of my way your wasting my gas." I hadnt even come to a full stop at the time and normaly when i see theres nothign there i slow to a crawl and move on or if its one or 2 cras i track stand and wave em by. Well this time i simply came to a full stop while taking the lane. 4 cars aproaching and i wove all of them on by then road off. I seen one was a rangers truck heading for the park. I was so hopign the moron behind me would follow me and harras me inside the park. That way the ranger could realy give him hell.
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Old 09-13-05, 01:08 PM   #17
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Uhhh yeah, and if there were only bicycles and pedestrians, than any accident would be the bicycists faullt with that logic. I suppose that would be a nice dreamland, but reality isn't philosphoical unfortunately. As for the woman, in a controlled intersection, if she was crossing on a red light or not yielding to traffic that has the right of way, then she is at fault. A crosswalk doesn't always guaruntee you the right of way.
Well we dont know why she was on the side walks. Maybe she was constantly harrased by motorists. Maybe a idiot cop warned here not to ride on the roads as it was against the law. I had this happen before its why i know carry a booklet with road related laws dealing with bikes etc all the time.

Or maybe she felt safer on the sidewalk and it was her fault. We just dont know what lead up to her being on the side walk.
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Old 09-13-05, 01:36 PM   #18
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A truck made a right turn and knocked her off the bike, then ran her over. That means the truck was going at a pretty good speed while making a right turn. If there was a pedestrian in the crosswalk or a baby carriage or anything else, that person would've suffered the same fate. I think the driver's at fault for driving so fast through a turn, even if he had the green light.
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Old 09-13-05, 02:24 PM   #19
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A truck made a right turn and knocked her off the bike, then ran her over. That means the truck was going at a pretty good speed while making a right turn. If there was a pedestrian in the crosswalk or a baby carriage or anything else, that person would've suffered the same fate. I think the driver's at fault for driving so fast through a turn, even if he had the green light.
That would be a logical conclusion if the pretense made sense. How fast does a truck need to be moving to knock someone off a bike and run over them? Could this not be done at say 5 MPH? 10? That's too fast? Why equate this to a pedestrian? That's where the problem is. A driver sees someone on the sidewalk, they think pedestrian speeds. That's maybe 3.5 MPH. They make decisions based on the projected intercept point. ie: pedestrian will not get to the intersection before I am well clear of the intersection. Bike rider on sidewalk is mentally registered as a pedestrian, while they are more likely traveling at least twice the expected speed, assuming they are going slow. That's one of the reasons that riding on the sidewalk is so dangerous. I know, I know, the driver should be watching. They are, but they have a lot more to watch than we do as cyclists. Experience can lead to complacency, you learn to expect certain things in certain situations. When an element in a situation is outside of the range of normal, complacency gets people hurt of killed.
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Old 09-13-05, 02:48 PM   #20
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If you are off your bike walking it across a crosswalk, you're a pedestrian and have right of way. If you're riding your bike across a crosswalk you have no more right of way than any other vehicle. If you're riding your bike on the sidewalk, you're breaking the law in most states.
Not true everywhere. In Virginia bicycles can ride on sidewalks unless specifically prohibited by the local jurisdiction (and most don't prohibit). When a bicycle is on a road, it is considered a vehicle. When it is on a sidewalk or path, it is considered a pedestrian, with some special responsibilities in dealing with other pedestrians. Any pedestrian or bicycle in a crosswalk always has the right of way over a vehicle turning into the roadway.

Near here, in Loudon County, VA they are having a very public discussion about bicycles at trail crossings after two cyclists were killed in two incidents at the end of August. If the Santo Rosa accident had happened in Virginia, the truck driver would have been entirely at fault.

I wonder if anyone has figured out what the different bikes-on-sidewalk laws are from state to state?

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Old 09-13-05, 03:07 PM   #21
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Sounds like a classic right hook, to which sidewalk cyclists are even more vulnerable than are gutter riders. She probably made her decision to enter the intersection without looking far enough back to make sure no one was coming to make a right turn. Particularly tragic, because right hooks are so easy for cyclists to avoid with proper habits and behavior.

When is it going to stop? Not until people stop using motor vehicles or bicycles as transportation.

Can the incidence of car-bike collisions be reduced? Absolutely. But only when cyclists realize that their own safety is their own responsibility, and that they can learn the habits and behavior required to ride in traffic safely. See the scuba thread if you're interested in this topic.
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Old 09-13-05, 03:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
"Witnesses told police that Hines, who had been riding her bicycle on the sidewalk, turned into the road at the West Third Street intersection. At that moment, a delivery truck for Clover Stornetta dairy was making a right turn on a green light. Hines' bicycle was in a crosswalk when she was hit, Schlief said."

Don't know the story here, but bikes aren't made for sidewalks and riding from the sidewalk into the road can often be a problem.
Trying to walk across a crosswalk when any motorized anything wants to make a right turn on the green just plain sux azz. It's as bad or I say worse when you're a ped. In my area on roads of any size, there are these little "islands" separating the right turners and giving people trying to walk across a bit of a refuge for just this purpose.

Since the driver is on the left, and seeing a ped or biker crossing like a ped, in a crosswalk requires the driver to check out their blind spot or close to it, it basically ends up being up to the ped or biker to look around for any cars intending to turn right and to be safest, to let them go first. Which means when you do get to walk, the signal's about to change. Which is a fugged up way to have things set up.
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Old 09-13-05, 03:49 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmhaan
in a very philosphoical way, i believe that most if not all accidents involving an automobile or truck is the driver's fault. if you remove the artifical laws that society creates and look at it as a case involving human interaction - it's the human who chooses to wrap itself in a multi-ton machine and barrel down the street who has turned it from a 'scratch on the knee accident' to a deadly situation. said simply - if he wasn't in a truck and they collided in an intersection on a bike or just walking around - nobody would be dead right now.

just my feeling...
I took a course in the Philosophy Dept. called Logic. Philosphoically(sic) your argument makes no sense.
Bikes are manmade machines that just aren't as fast or strong as trucks.
Do you really want us to believe that the natural law exists that says trucks must always yield to bikes.
Bikes must yield to pedestrians, pedestrians must yield to animals(multi-ounce hunks of plastic wrapped around their feet).
I really am sorry for the family of the person that died, but we all need to remember that biking can be very dangerous. Whether or not she had the right of way, the result remains the same. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE
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Old 09-13-05, 03:57 PM   #24
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BE CAREFUL OUT THERE
^^ WERD! i just wish that more money would be put into creating more fenced off bike trails. like in taiwan, in the capitol city.. on a very bz street.. the govt. developed a spot in the middle of the island just for cyclist. it's not fenced off, but at least it's a pretty big island just for cyclist to ride through.

if only if we have a fenced off bike lane on the highways, or freeways.. then that would be awesome. i drive on HWY 87 to work every day and seeing those VTA train running in the center of the HWY.. with some space on the side.. i'm thinking.. it would be awesome if that was available to cyclist to use to commute... that would be an ultimate nirvana riding along side with cars.. passing them up during traffic hours.. if a senator in cali is willing to do that.. i'll vote for him or her!
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Old 09-13-05, 04:01 PM   #25
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Do you really want us to believe that the natural law exists that says trucks must always yield to bikes.
Bikes must yield to pedestrians, pedestrians must yield to animals(multi-ounce hunks of plastic wrapped around their feet).
all i'm saying is that if one of the two people in this incident was not operating a giant truck, then there would not be a death. that's pure logic my friend.

i never said anything about who should yield. and i never mentioned natural laws at all.

are you sure you passed this course? and what are you talking about "multi-ounce hunks of plastic wrapped around their feet"? LOL.
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