Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-14-05, 01:43 PM   #1
Cyclon
2 Wheel Junkie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: SoCal
Bikes:
Posts: 348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Two Cyclists' Deaths in Los Angeles

Cyclists' Deaths Point to PCH Perils


The breathtaking views on the Pacific Coast Highway carry risks for cyclists, who ride in the sea breeze at considerable peril as cars on the narrow road zoom by.

On Saturday morning, a catering truck hit two cyclists, who had been forced off the northbound shoulder and onto the road by a construction project. The driver did not stop immediately after hitting the men, who died soon after being airlifted to UCLA Medical Center.

Rest of article in the following link:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...nes-california
Cyclon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 01:59 PM   #2
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a rare rear-ender, which could have been prevented by the use of rear view mirrors by the bicyclists. Condolences to the family.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 02:02 PM   #3
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just so people can place this one. It is on PCH just North of Peperdine. Normally a prety good section of road, reasonable shoulder. It has been a while since I've been out there, but there was not a bike lane and I doubt there is one now.
Keith99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 02:05 PM   #4
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barenakedbiker
This is a rare rear-ender, which could have been prevented by the use of rear view mirrors by the bicyclists.
How? Long section of road with no where to go to get out of the way. Not much one can do all mirrors would have done is let them see death coming.
Keith99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 02:15 PM   #5
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith99
How? Long section of road with no where to go to get out of the way. Not much one can do all mirrors would have done is let them see death coming.
I have ridden that section of PCH. Most of PCH out of Santa Monica is knarly. If you check your rear-view mirror BEFORE you merge off the shoulder and into the regular lanes, you can see traffic coming up your arse, way before it gets nailed.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 02:50 PM   #6
LCI_Brian
Senior Member
 
LCI_Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's hard to tell from the story whether the cyclists waited too late to merge into the traffic lane, or if they had already established position in the traffic lane before getting hit.
LCI_Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 02:59 PM   #7
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Here's a picture:
http://photos.imageevent.com/aero92/...H%20Perils.jpg
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 03:04 PM   #8
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbhikes

Looks like some cute lawyer is gonna make a whole bunch of money from CADOT! The way the construction zone is set up is contributory.

But, then again, the attoney for the defence, CADOT, will invoke Boub V Wayne. Cyclists shouldn't be on PCH in the first place...blah blah blah.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 03:06 PM   #9
2WheelFury
Cat 6 Wheel-Sucker
 
2WheelFury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central New England
Bikes: Pinarello, Cannondale, Peugeot
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
From what I've heard by some others that ride up that way frequently, the area of the collision is under construction. The company doing the construction work had placed k-rails (commonly called "jersey barriers") RIGHT UP TO the white line on the edge of the road, which they arguably should not have done. Expect a lawsuit against the general contractor for sure.

Anyway, since there was no shoulder, the cyclist had nowhere to go, with or without a mirror. Since he was likely moving downhill at a reasonable speed, stopping would have been difficult and may have resulted in a crash with him AND the other rider getting injured or run over (those that have ridden in groups will know what I mean).

So you had a couple of cyclists barreling downhill at moderate to high speed, rounding a curve (where visibility isn't super great to start with), only to get "squeezed" off the shoulder by inappropriately-placed construction barriers. Not good. Add to it the asshat driving the truck who reportedly didn't want to slam on the brakes because there were other guys cooking (yes, COOKING) in the back. This is illegal as hell, for those that don't know.

Yes, these are the idiots we deal with on a daily basis. Be careful out there people!!!

Here's the whole story:

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...ck=1&cset=true
2WheelFury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 03:10 PM   #10
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2WheelFury
From what I've heard by some others that ride up that way frequently, the area of the collision is under construction. The company doing the construction work had placed k-rails (commonly called "jersey barriers") RIGHT UP TO the white line on the edge of the road, which they arguably should not have done. Expect a lawsuit against the general contractor for sure.

Anyway, since there was no shoulder, the cyclist had nowhere to go, with or without a mirror. Since he was likely moving downhill at a reasonable speed, stopping would have been difficult and may have resulted in a crash with him AND the other rider getting injured or run over (those that have ridden in groups will know what I mean).

So you had a couple of cyclists barreling downhill at moderate to high speed, rounding a curve (where visibility isn't super great to start with), only to get "squeezed" off the shoulder by inappropriately-placed construction barriers. Not good. Add to it the asshat driving the truck who reportedly didn't want to slam on the brakes because there were other guys cooking (yes, COOKING) in the back. This is illegal as hell, for those that don't know.
Some cute lawyer for the cyclists' family will make a bunch of money. Hey, someone call Gary Brustin! http://bicyclelawyer.com/bicyclelawyer.com/index.html
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 03:12 PM   #11
2WheelFury
Cat 6 Wheel-Sucker
 
2WheelFury's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Central New England
Bikes: Pinarello, Cannondale, Peugeot
Posts: 310
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Typically barriers are placed to leave a shoulder (might be narrower than normal, but usually SOMETHING is left). If any of the barricades are over the line without having obtained the appropriate permits from Caltrans, the G.C. is f*cked and will possibly be nailed for gross negligance. Either way, the lawyers are going to have a field day with this one.

Side note, since we're talking about riding safety - even when there IS a shoulder, anytime you have k-rails present at the edge of the road, they just become "junk collectors" and a shoulder strewn with debris can be as big a hazard as anything else. Anyone that rides CA roads with any regularity knows there is WAY too much trash, debris, etc. on the roadsides that never gets picked up. Not to mention the "junk barges" that roll around with crap literally falling out of the back (no tarp, no cover, etc.) It's all too common.
2WheelFury is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 04:28 PM   #12
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The article says they were riding side by side, which means at least one of them was pretty far left.

This guy should get the death penalty as far as I'm concerned.

Outrageous.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 04:37 PM   #13
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head

This guy should get the death penalty as far as I'm concerned.
Yes. The car driver was certainly wild and crazy and murdered people. But, don't you think the State be held to a higher standard than a lowlife, good-fer-nuthin' wild and crazy car driver?
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:00 PM   #14
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,974
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 898 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The article says they were riding side by side, which means at least one of them was pretty far left.

This guy should get the death penalty as far as I'm concerned.

Outrageous.
What? Are you SURE there wasn't some way that the cyclists could have avoided this...

Perhaps they did not ensure it was clear far enough back, or perhaps they abruptly pulled out in front of the food truck, perhaps they should have moved further to the left or perhaps their mirrors were dirty, or...

I donno, I want to see a full investigation before committing to the death penalty... after all the motorist did say "I didn't see them... "

I guess broad daylight, two cyclists in the middle of the lane, is just not visible, eh?
genec is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:07 PM   #15
Cassave
Senior Member
 
Cassave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodland Hills, Calif.
Bikes:
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I ride that section often (last time was 9 days ago). The construction site is along an uphill stretch.
The driver could have seen riders well far ahead due to the grade. It's quite common to get breezed on PCH due to the speeds, the amount of traffic and the erratic shoulder width. This last Saturday morning
was foggy at the beach. The driver should have been driving at reduced speed because of the fog, certainly not driving over the limit like the article states. I'm sure I'll get a chill next time I ride that bit of road again.
Cassave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:08 PM   #16
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
What? Are you SURE there wasn't some way that the cyclists could have avoided this...

Perhaps they did not ensure it was clear far enough back, or perhaps they abruptly pulled out in front of the food truck, perhaps they should have moved further to the left or perhaps their mirrors were dirty, or...

I donno, I want to see a full investigation before committing to the death penalty... after all the motorist did say "I didn't see them... "

I guess broad daylight, two cyclists in the middle of the lane, is just not visible, eh?
This is the classic rear-ender, rare, but could have been avoided by the use or rear-view mirror by the cyclists. But, the fault is with the wild and crazy car driver.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:18 PM   #17
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,974
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 898 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barenakedbiker
This is the classic rear-ender, rare, but could have been avoided by the use or rear-view mirror by the cyclists. But, the fault is with the wild and crazy car driver.
Honestly if the cyclists had seen this guy in their mirrors, were would they have gone to avoid the truck? The side of the road was closed, and only the other lane was available. In reality, the truck should have slowed down had the driver been paying attention...
genec is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:24 PM   #18
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
Honestly if the cyclists had seen this guy in their mirrors, were would they have gone to avoid the truck? The side of the road was closed, and only the other lane was available. In reality, the truck should have slowed down had the driver been paying attention...
The cyclists would have seen the truck long before merging into traffic.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:26 PM   #19
bkrownd
kipuka explorer
 
bkrownd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hilo Town, East Hawai'i
Bikes: 1994 Trek 820, 2004 Fuji Absolute, 2005 Jamis Nova, 1977 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36
Posts: 3,293
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barenakedbiker
This is the classic rear-ender, rare, but could have been avoided by the use or rear-view mirror by the cyclists.
I don't buy the mirror bit. I have two mirrors on my bike, and there just isn't time to safely monitor both the road ahead and traffic behind. The road ahead takes almost constant attention. Even if you catch a glimpse of something coming, by the time it's obvious it's too late to do anything other than clench your butt cheeks and hope.
__________________
--
-=- '05 Jamis Nova -=- '04 Fuji Absolute -=- '94 Trek 820 -=- '77 Schwinn Scrambler 36/36 -=-
Friends don't let friends use brifters.
bkrownd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:28 PM   #20
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't leave home with a helmet-mounted rear-view. That's right. Bike mounted rear views require a look-down.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:34 PM   #21
Cassave
Senior Member
 
Cassave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodland Hills, Calif.
Bikes:
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
This section of road is straight, slightly uphill and at present, because of construction, without a shoulder.
A rear view mirror wouldn't have saved anybody in this case. There is nowhere to go. If the riders were two abreast they were doing the only reasonable thing. They had to take the lane since the shoulder is non-existent for a significant distance.

You can easily see a single rider 1/2 mile ahead along there if you're paying attention. I'd guess the driver was distracted by something happening in the back of the truck and just gave up on driving for a while.
Cassave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:35 PM   #22
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,974
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 898 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barenakedbiker
The cyclists would have seen the truck long before merging into traffic.
And a look back couldn't tell them this? Could it be they saw the truck, saw how far back it was and simply assumed that the truck will see them in plenty of time to slow down, so no big deal?

Not a good course of action frankly. I never assume I am seen. Yes, I do believe cyclists are invisible. No, I don't always act like it, but when I need to make sure I am seen by faster traffic behind me, I signal and wait for something to slow down first. I use that vehicle as a shield between me and anything behind the now slowed vehicle.

Is that a perfect system... no way.

The slowed shield vehicle can be plowed into behind them, driving them forward into me. (I have had that happen to me in an auto, so I know it can happen to a cyclist). Motorists behind the slowed shield vehicle can become upset (gee, that never happens) and pull sudden passing moves around the slowed vehicle assuming that there is free space in front... where I am.

But only depending on mirrors and signals and lane positioning to make one "visible," nah, there is a real fatal flaw in that thinking.
genec is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:38 PM   #23
Bauerthis
Don't worry about it!
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: California
Bikes:
Posts: 132
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by barenakedbiker
The cyclists would have seen the truck long before merging into traffic.
What makes you think they just didn't check their six before getting over? Not having, or having a mirror has nothing to do with this. Give it a rest.
Bauerthis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 05:42 PM   #24
barenakedbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 364
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
But only depending on mirrors and signals and lane positioning to make one "visible," nah, there is a real fatal flaw in that thinking.
You are right. Rear-view, signals, and positioning doesn't always protect. I would look for a gap in the traffic. Get in front of a slow mover and use him for protection. Car driver who insists on slowly tailgating me at a respectable distance is a good boy. They can honk all they want. But, as long as they are behind me, protecting me from the speedy gonzalez, it is ok with me.
barenakedbiker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-05, 06:01 PM   #25
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
And what happens when the slow-mover changes lanes and passes you? Now whose protecting you from speedy gonzalez?
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:18 AM.