Hit by truck, bicyclist killed ("I didn't see her")
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Originally Posted by expatriate
so we can further one member's quest to turn us all into vehicular cyclists, rather than sensible, courteous, and aware cyclists.
If you have a problem with something I or anyone else posts, then please indicate exactly what it is (quote the exact words), and state clearly what your problem with it is. But this kind of vague innuendo and personal attack is totally out of line.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The implication that vehicular cyclists are not sensible, courteous and aware is uncalled for and totally without basis.
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The kind of scary thing is that there's a middle school a few miles down the road from where this happend....
I stopped by the school to do some observations of classes last week, and I counted 30+ bikes parked in the bike racks. Good sign of community growth, but you have to wonder what could happen...
I stopped by the school to do some observations of classes last week, and I counted 30+ bikes parked in the bike racks. Good sign of community growth, but you have to wonder what could happen...
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Recently Pittsburgh paid out 3 million dollars to a pedestrian's family because they failed to put in safety features on a known dangerous street. Since that death there are bright yellow safety "yeild to pedestrians state law" signs at 4 cross walks where the death occured. Could it be that no one was to blame, and that all parties involved should be given notice. Including the armored car manufacturer. I think someone said way back in the thread that they had recently cut down trees, improving line of site. Cities are obliged to collect this type of data under national transportaion acts. If they dont pay attention they should be sued!
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Putting the man in jail would ruin two lives. The driver's and the victim's. Society would benefit instead by revoking the man's liscence for life. Community service would be good too. Jail doesn't solve anything. My two cents.
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Originally Posted by jomalley
The kind of scary thing is that there's a middle school a few miles down the road from where this happend....
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Originally Posted by becnal
Children's lives are more valuable than adults'.
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Taking his license for life isn't a realistic answer for a tragic crash. He will punish himself more than anything some of you will even realize.
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I'd like to go back to speculating on how this happened. What bothers me is that this was an armored truck. An armored truck shouldn't be able to make a very fast "left/right hook" turn, it's too heavy. If the truck made a right turn I can see where the driver could be blameless. If the truck had slowed down below cycling speed, as would be necessary to negotiate a hard right into a narrow side street, and was signalling, I might fault the cyclist for overtaking the truck on the right if the truck was sufficiently far ahead when he started slowing and signalling. On the other hand in a left turn I'd lean toward blaming the driver, who should've seen the cyclist under any circumstances. the original report said the cyclist was travelling east but I think the direction of the truck was left out.
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Originally Posted by Expatriate
When you look over your shoulder, do you see the traffic, or just a giant chip? I did not imply anything. VC and being sensible, courteous, and aware are not mutually exclusive. But those three words sum up safe cycling better than anything else VC has to offer. Not everyone accepts VC as a religion like you do, and therefore they are able to take comments like that at face value, rather than consider it a personal attack. I'm sure there are plenty of good points to VC, but having it shoved down our throats in every thread in the A&S forums gets old quickly. As does the assumption that VC would have/could have prevented an accident.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
And if you don't recognize that the words "one member's quest to ..." is a personal attack (not to mention likening my advocacy for VC to accepting it "as a religion"), you might want to give it some more thought.
Somehow they think responding to valid criticism/skepticism of their personal theories and proposals by repeating over and over "Personal Attack! Personal Insult" adds credibility to their wacky conjuring about other cyclists and motorists' behavior and motivations.
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I live near Noho and go up there often. Anyone whos been up there knows that pedestrians and cyclists outnumber motor vehicles. You can't drive thru that area without stopping multiple times for people crossing the road. I think drivers and cyclists should be more aware of their surroundings and the possible dangers.
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Originally Posted by sentinel
Taking his license for life isn't a realistic answer for a tragic crash. He will punish himself more than anything some of you will even realize.
driving a motor vehicle is a privilege not a right.
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Apply the laws of earth and make it a victim
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#140
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
HH and Daily Commuter should form a duo crying the blues about "personal attacks" every time anyone doesn't first humor them as credible cycling spokesmen before calling their wacky idea-spades, wacky idea-spades.
Somehow they think responding to valid criticism/skepticism of their personal theories and proposals by repeating over and over "Personal Attack! Personal Insult" adds credibility to their wacky conjuring about other cyclists and motorists' behavior and motivations.
Somehow they think responding to valid criticism/skepticism of their personal theories and proposals by repeating over and over "Personal Attack! Personal Insult" adds credibility to their wacky conjuring about other cyclists and motorists' behavior and motivations.
Speaking of substantive arguments, all riding philosophies, including "invisible cycling" and "VC" would agree that being "sensible, courteous, and aware" are keys to riding safely. The differences arise over defining "sensible" and "courteous." Is it "sensible" to hug the curb most of the time to stay "out of the way"? Or is it "sensible" to be farther to the left where you have more visibility and more manoeuvring room? Is it "courteous" or "sensible" to pass a line of traffic on the right? To run a red light? To ride in a door-zone bike lane? The list goes on.
So merely saying you support this or that way to ride because it promotes being "sensible, courteous, and aware" really doesn't say much.
Originally Posted by Expatriate
. . . the assumption that VC would have/could have prevented an accident [gets old quickly]
If you think bike lanes or hugging the curb would have prevented an accident, you're perfectly free to say so and explain why you think what you think.
As to this case, we don't know who's at fault. If the cyclist was passing the truck on the right, she's at fault. If the truck driver started to pass the cyclist, but didn't clear her before he turned right, he's at fault. Even in the truck-driver's-fault scenerio, we don't know what the cyclist's lane position was. If she was within a few feet from the curb, being farther out would have decreased the chance of a right hook.
And one final note (not related to expatriate's post). Many people on the first few pages of this thread immediately called for the punishment of the driver without facts that prove the driver was at fault. This is a common reaction to cyclist-injured stories. In other threads, people have gone as far as to advocate that the drivers be *****. (I address that line of argument in this thread.) Fortunately, the mods will delete a post that advocates raping someone, but it shows how extreme some people get.
If you don't really know what happenned, we can use what facts we do know to discuss safety issues, but we can't say for certain who was to blame.
Last edited by Daily Commute; 10-08-05 at 07:43 AM.