Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-24-05, 10:02 PM   #1
Helmet Head
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
VC puzzler 1

Consider the following actual account of a recent cycling experience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Name Withheld
We were downtown riding in the bike lane, going about 16 mph on
a one-way street. We were coming to an intersection - guy at a stop sign -
we didn't have one - just as we entered the intersection, he came driving
through...I panicked a little bit and started to put my feet down, but
my friend knew just what to do, and turned right (same direction as the car was
heading) immediately, avoiding hitting the car, AND managing to keep us
from crashing at the same time. She was so excited that she knew EXACTLY
what to do...so, thanks for offering the course. We both feel like we are
better, and safer, riders because of it.
Is this a good example of vehicular cycling?
Why or why not?
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-05, 10:27 PM   #2
recursive
Geosynchronous Falconeer
 
recursive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Posts: 6,312
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Yes. Responsible vehicle operators avoid collisions.
__________________
Bring the pain.
recursive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 01:25 AM   #3
chroot
Newbie Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Just outside San Fransicsco
Bikes: Trek 1000
Posts: 556
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We don't know yet, because you haven't told us. We already know that you and you alone are capable of making wise decisions while operating a bicycle, while the rest of us are just pathetic lambs hoping one day to suckle at your swollen teat of VC knowledge.

- Warren
chroot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 04:53 AM   #4
Bekologist
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You tell us, VC swami. Then, you could issue a poll about how effective your advice was.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 07:13 AM   #5
oboeguy
34x25 FTW!
 
oboeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NYC
Bikes: Kona Jake, Scott CR1, Dahon SpeedPro
Posts: 6,013
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The correct answer is, "who cares?". Woohoo, cookie for me!

Seriously, does it matter? It might difficult for different size vehicles to pull off the same manuever, so in some sense the answer is no, but it still seems irrelevant. Accident avoided, end of story, IMO.
oboeguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 07:28 AM   #6
Cyclaholic
CRIKEY!!!!!!!
 
Cyclaholic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney, Australia
Bikes: several
Posts: 4,269
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 82 Post(s)
42
Cyclaholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 07:40 AM   #7
zaphodbeeblebro
x
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NYC
Bikes: inbred, GT, dean
Posts: 111
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyclaholic
42
best answer yet!!!!!
zaphodbeeblebro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 08:44 AM   #8
Dchiefransom
Senior Member
 
Dchiefransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Newark, CA. San Francisco Bay Area
Bikes:
Posts: 6,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
It's a good example of Effective Cycling, as taught in the Road Course I, that people can go through. Trying to turn inside a vehicle that's about to hit you will either avoid or minimize the damge. It's better than taking a T-bone hit directly to the side.
Dchiefransom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 08:49 AM   #9
timmhaan
more ape than man
 
timmhaan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: nyc
Bikes:
Posts: 8,093
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by recursive
Yes. Responsible vehicle operators avoid collisions.
couldn't say it better myself.
timmhaan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 09:11 AM   #10
PaulH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Bikes:
Posts: 3,315
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
"...I panicked a little bit and started to put my feet down"

I'm trying to visualize the vehicle in question. Is it a recumbent tandam? Is someone riding on the handlebars? What is needed is either a turn or braking to avoid the car -- how does putting feet down avoid this? Is it the first step in jumping off the bike? Assuming that turning is more appropriate than braking, turning in the direction of traffic in the cross lane seems preferable. However, I would think maximum braking the better solution, assuming that a bike can generate more deceleration than lateral acceleration.

It is a puzzler. Tell more.

Paul
PaulH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 09:33 AM   #11
eubi
No Rocket Surgeon
 
eubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Corona and S. El Monte, CA
Bikes: Cannondale D600, Dahon Speed T7
Posts: 1,648
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm with PaulH on this. The description of what happened is puzzling.
eubi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 09:42 AM   #12
Helmet Head
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hint: in recent polls many forum readers claimed they were vehicular cyclists and/or already ride in the way I advocate. I contend that if you ride in traffic vehicularly, then you must think vehicularly. If you think vehicularly, then when you read and visualize the OP description something very obvious should come to mind, something related to the question of whether the incident is a good example of vehicular cycling.
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 09:43 AM   #13
kf5nd
Senior Member
 
kf5nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX 77095
Bikes: Specialized Sequoia Elite, Schwinn Frontier FS MTB, Centurion LeMans (1986)
Posts: 1,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Untrained people try to apply Fred Flintstone brakes... I think that's what we're talking about here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulH
"...I panicked a little bit and started to put my feet down"
__________________
Peter Wang, LCI
Houston, TX USA
kf5nd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 09:45 AM   #14
kf5nd
Senior Member
 
kf5nd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Houston, TX 77095
Bikes: Specialized Sequoia Elite, Schwinn Frontier FS MTB, Centurion LeMans (1986)
Posts: 1,470
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
mmmm... get out of the bike lane into the main lane at intersection crossings, but that might not have helped them to avoid this situation
kf5nd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 10:10 AM   #15
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,110
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by kf5nd
mmmm... get out of the bike lane into the main lane at intersection crossings, but that might not have helped them to avoid this situation
Well, it could be a factor, but we dont' know the specifics. Where is the bike lane? The right side, the left side or road, or perhaps in the middle (like I've seen for some cities)? But the bottom line is if the cyclists were going straight they should have positioned themselves in a way that make them visible to side traffic and demonstrated their intent to go straight.

Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 10:10 AM   #16
budster
beginner
 
budster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Somerset, NJ, USA
Bikes: Trek 800, Gary Fisher Advance, Trek 2300 Pro
Posts: 760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
...think vehicularly.

hmmm....

Ah! Got it! They should have hit the air horn and given the guy the fingah!



Actually, what popped into my mind first was they probably could have avoided the incident altogether. Perhaps they should have moved left and taken the traffic lane to increase their visibility before the intersection.
budster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 10:11 AM   #17
budster
beginner
 
budster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Somerset, NJ, USA
Bikes: Trek 800, Gary Fisher Advance, Trek 2300 Pro
Posts: 760
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Great minds think alike...

And lesser ones, like mine, should probably hit "refresh" before posting.
budster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 10:32 AM   #18
Keith99
Senior Member
 
Keith99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 5,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
When I get in the CAR and leave my house I can turn right ot left. When I turn right the first real intersection I come to (the other side of my street has several 4 and 5 house dead ends that 'T' into the street and I don't count those) I do NOT have a stop sign but the other way does. When coming to that intersection in my CAR I slow and anticapate that the car going the other way is reasonable apt to start up as if it were a 4 way stop. Experience has taught me this, because it happens regularly.

One would think Vehicular Cycling would include applying things you know from driving. So as I see it this is not VC as I would not put myself in a situation where a panic stop or evasive action is needed when driving my car I would take the same caution on a bike.
Keith99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 10:47 AM   #19
heckflosse
EARTH IS FULL. GO HOME.
 
heckflosse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: ENGLAND
Bikes: Jeep Cherokee-se, Euro Eco-bike
Posts: 292
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wouldn't the best thing to do is to have read the road more before?
heckflosse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 11:03 AM   #20
Dchiefransom
Senior Member
 
Dchiefransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Newark, CA. San Francisco Bay Area
Bikes:
Posts: 6,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Well, it could be a factor, but we dont' know the specifics. Where is the bike lane? The right side, the left side or road, or perhaps in the middle (like I've seen for some cities)? But the bottom line is if the cyclists were going straight they should have positioned themselves in a way that make them visible to side traffic and demonstrated their intent to go straight.

Al
We also have no indication of what they were wearing. In a downtown area like that, it's easy in regular clothes to get lost in the background of what's behind us, no matter which lane we're in. Just like bike lights get lost in the urban background lighting at night, cyclists in broad daylight get easily lost in the background. I've seen riders that others with me have not noticed.
Edit:

Last edited by Dchiefransom; 10-25-05 at 11:13 AM.
Dchiefransom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 11:17 AM   #21
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dchiefransom
It's a good example of Effective Cycling, as taught in the Road Course I, that people can go through. Trying to turn inside a vehicle that's about to hit you will either avoid or minimize the damge. It's better than taking a T-bone hit directly to the side.
Really? Who wudda thunk it? Maybe I really need to go through this course to "learn" more examples of the same.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 11:20 AM   #22
Roody
Sophomoric Member
 
Roody's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dancing in Lansing
Bikes:
Posts: 23,578
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 169 Post(s)
I'm with noisy Al and the budster. BUT even if they had been riding further to the left, the cager still COULD have run the sign. The quick right worked in this case, and it's hard to argue with success.

I've seen this done by a friend (Tony), and filed it away for future use myself. I was riding 2 lengths behind Tony so I had plenty of time to brake. But he quick-turned right into the side street, parallelling the car. I don't think the moron cager knew what happened, unless he heard us yelling carefully selected phrases. (Tony is not a VC rider. He's a wildassed urban guerilla type.)

Bicycle brakes are never the greatest, but a good bike under a good rider is very nimble.
__________________

"Think Outside the Cage"

Last edited by Roody; 10-25-05 at 04:20 PM.
Roody is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 11:25 AM   #23
Mars
coitus non circum.
 
Mars's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 2,495
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Are the responses to this thread examples of how HH needs to be more respectful and turn down the retoric a bit?
Mars is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 02:28 PM   #24
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't think there is a one right answer to these types of questions. They handled it effectively, therefore it was effective cycling. Whether it was VC or not, whether they learned to do this in a course or not, matters not one bit to me.

They may have handled it differently if they'd been a little further ahead or behind, or if they were on the right side of the street or left, when the guy pulled out. They may have handled it differently if they were clipped into their pedals or using platforms. They may have handled it differently on a recumbent vs a road bike vs a mountain bike. (You never want to put your feet down on a recumbent while you are moving quickly. That's how you break your leg with the dreaded "leg suck.")

What if they handled it in a non-VC/Serge-approved manner and still avoided the accident? What kind of example of vehicular cylcing would it be then?
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-05, 03:08 PM   #25
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,846
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mars
Are the responses to this thread examples of how HH needs to be more respectful and turn down the retoric a bit?
The appropriate response IMO would be to throw a pie in the face of the puzzler who is only trolling with more loaded-question "bait". Given that that can't be done either remotely or electrically, the measured responses so far give more respect to the puzzler/troll than is merited.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:44 PM.