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  1. #1
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    Help save the SF Bay Area Critical Mass bike soundsystem by donating to cover the costs of fighting the remaining court cases.

    Donate to the Bike Soundsystem Legal Fund at:
    http://www.passionbomb.com/bike

    I'm currently facing two court cases in San Francisco for being ticketed while riding the bike soundsystem. Both cases share the same charge of California Vehicle Code section 27007 (which has to do with vehicles with amplified sound). The first ticket was received when I was pulled over by the CHP at the May 2005 SF Critical Mass. The second ticket was from the September 2005 SF Critical Mass ride when I was pulled over by the SFPD. In July 2005, I was also arrested while riding the bike soundsystem at the G8 protest in San Francisco. My bike, soundsystem trailer and iPod were all confiscated and it took about a month and a half to get them out (on the day of the August 2005 SF Critical Mass). The charge from the G8 protest was eventually dismissed, but only because the arresting cop was too stupid to write a valid ticket.

    In California Vehicle Code section 27007, it states that "this section does not apply to the sound systems of vehicles used for advertising, or in parades, political or other special events". The California Vehicle Code also defines "vehicles" narrowly to not include human-powered vehicles. Some of the sections regarding traffic laws do apply to bicycles but those sections that do apply to bicycles are specifically listed and 27007 is not one of them.

    I will be appearing in court today(10/28) for the ticket from last month's ride. My next trial is set for November 10th, 2005 for the first ticket from May 2005. The amount of fine for each case if I lose will be $154.96, so I'm facing about $310 in total fines, so far. I was able to get some donations at the end of the October ride at the screening of the NYC CM documentary, "Still We Ride". Any amount you can give will help. Thanks!
    Last edited by bunnywrench; 10-29-05 at 02:29 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #2
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    I wouldn't argue based on the exceptions to the statute. If you checked, you'd probably find you need a permit to engage in any of those activities. Did you have a permit? It would suck big time to bring up something and then have the judge tack another charge and fine on top of the one you're fighting.
    Have you consulted a lawyer about this? There isn't anyone involved at Critical Mass that can help you out for free? While you might get away from the definition of "vehicle", they're going to look up some local sound ordinance to cite you, if they can. It's better to be prepared ahead of time.
    Last edited by Dchiefransom; 10-28-05 at 10:38 AM.

  3. #3
    Last one to the top... Little Darwin's Avatar
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    Great point!

    CM riders are proud of themselves for not being organized (we all know it is only to avoid accountability and bypass the rules)... I personally think it is cool that someone is having to face responsibility for their actions related to CM that would have not been an issue if CM was done the way it should be.

    If you ride with a group where nobody accepts responsibility, sometimes it will be forcibly thrust upon you in the least opportune ways!

    BTW - I hope the OP gets the equipment back, but I am glad it is costing time and effort on his part!
    Slow Ride Cyclists of NEPA

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    Great point!

    CM riders are proud of themselves for not being organized (we all know it is only to avoid accountability and bypass the rules)... I personally think it is cool that someone is having to face responsibility for their actions related to CM that would have not been an issue if CM was done the way it should be.

    If you ride with a group where nobody accepts responsibility, sometimes it will be forcibly thrust upon you in the least opportune ways!

    BTW - I hope the OP gets the equipment back, but I am glad it is costing time and effort on his part!

    Eh, you're a moron. Using the system to punish people when valid charges can't be brought is bogus; if, as it appears, the tickets he was issued are illegitimate and he's just being forced to run through the system as a punishment in itself, that's an abuse of the system. If you commit a crime, you should be held responsible; if you don't, you shouldn't have to go through the process.
    Falling down is not exercising.

  5. #5
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    Eh, you're a moron. Using the system to punish people when valid charges can't be brought is bogus; if, as it appears, the tickets he was issued are illegitimate and he's just being forced to run through the system as a punishment in itself, that's an abuse of the system. If you commit a crime, you should be held responsible; if you don't, you shouldn't have to go through the process.
    But on the flip side it is odd to me that one is trying to get out of the ticket by using a the arguement that one isn't a vehicle, when one of the purposes of CM is trying to gain the respect of being a vehicle - i.e 'we are traffic'

    It seems to me the intent of the law is to reduce noise pollution which a sound system during a non registered parade seems to fit.

    Al

  6. #6
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    Eh, you're a moron. Using the system to punish people when valid charges can't be brought is bogus; if, as it appears, the tickets he was issued are illegitimate and he's just being forced to run through the system as a punishment in itself, that's an abuse of the system. If you commit a crime, you should be held responsible; if you don't, you shouldn't have to go through the process.
    Just how did you come up with the chareges not being valid? If anything it seems he got off the first time where the charges were valid, but the police did not dot all the "i" and cross all the "t"s. So he got lucky and decided to push his luck, and lost.

  7. #7
    Bent_Rider
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    Anyway, I gave him $5 Friday nite, he was rockin the ride. He had a good Halloween theme playlist.

    There was also the black dude with the mountain bike towing a long trailer with very good sound system.

    The ride was awesome, with different segments breaking off and merging back together. Circled the Broadway tunnel several times. The cops were cool.

    Saw one thing, a cop stopped his squad car on Market, got out, and ran fast back toward Embarcadero, I couldn't see what was happening.

    The costumes were very good, and the fish bike was awesome.

  8. #8
    Sweetened with Splenda
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith99
    Just how did you come up with the chareges not being valid? If anything it seems he got off the first time where the charges were valid, but the police did not dot all the "i" and cross all the "t"s. So he got lucky and decided to push his luck, and lost.

    If he was ticketed under a chapter of the vehicle code that explicitly doesn't apply to bicycles... the tickets are invalid. Read the original post! (The nonsense about whether the chapter of law applies to "special events" vehicles is irrelevant - he's not a vehicle under that chapter of law at ALL, special-events or otherwise!)
    Falling down is not exercising.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scarry
    Anyway, I gave him $5 Friday nite, he was rockin the ride. He had a good Halloween theme playlist.

    There was also the black dude with the mountain bike towing a long trailer with very good sound system.

    The ride was awesome, with different segments breaking off and merging back together. Circled the Broadway tunnel several times. The cops were cool.

    Saw one thing, a cop stopped his squad car on Market, got out, and ran fast back toward Embarcadero, I couldn't see what was happening.

    The costumes were very good, and the fish bike was awesome.
    You do the CM ride. You like the music this guy plays. You chipped in 5 bucks.

    Got no problem with that at all. If even a small percentage of other CM riders do the same his costs should get covered.

  10. #10
    Last one to the top... Little Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    Eh, you're a moron.
    I intentionally did not call anyone names, but I guess for some as long as you think your point is being made, getting along is a negative thing... (This seems to be the battle cry of CM)

    Here's a simple word problem for you. The sum of a moron's IQ plus my IQ is 200... Twice the moron's IQ is equal to half of mine. What is my IQ?

    In case you are wondering, my IQ is less than 10 points from the proper answer to the above question. I rounded up in order to make the problem easier.

    I sometimes have trouble in the same area you seem to struggle with, and attack the person making the argument instead of the argument itself. However, I have found the methodology less than effective and try to argue more logically.

    Have a nice evening!

    Apology will be accepted, but is not expected.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    I intentionally did not call anyone names, but I guess for some as long as you think your point is being made, getting along is a negative thing... (This seems to be the battle cry of CM)

    Here's a simple word problem for you. The sum of a moron's IQ plus my IQ is 200... Twice the moron's IQ is equal to half of mine. What is my IQ?

    In case you are wondering, my IQ is less than 10 points from the proper answer to the above question. I rounded up in order to make the problem easier.

    I sometimes have trouble in the same area you seem to struggle with, and attack the person making the argument instead of the argument itself. However, I have found the methodology less than effective and try to argue more logically.

    Have a nice evening!

    Apology will be accepted, but is not expected.
    When you've made a convincing argument on the facts of the case, I may well be swayed. If instead you continue to troll in every CM-related thread you can find, I'll continue to believe you're a moron. I'm judging you not on the basis of an IQ test, but on your behavior - and I don't much care whether you also scored a 1600 on the SAT and were awarded a gold-foil star for your drawing of a pony, either. None of those tests apparently indicates the ability to reason and discuss the matter at hand, as evidenced by the "strength" your arguments.

    Have a nice evening yourself! It would be easy to wish you'd suffer a false arrest or a malicious, unjustified ticket as an experiment in whether a "superior" intellect can adapt via real-world experience, but nobody's deserving of these tactics - not even you, my friend. So go in peace.

    When you're ready to apologize for wishing ill on all CM cyclists because of the bad actions committed by a very few long ago, I'm certain we'll all be ready to listen
    Falling down is not exercising.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Keith99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    If he was ticketed under a chapter of the vehicle code that explicitly doesn't apply to bicycles... the tickets are invalid. Read the original post! (The nonsense about whether the chapter of law applies to "special events" vehicles is irrelevant - he's not a vehicle under that chapter of law at ALL, special-events or otherwise!)
    Oh so we accept the conclusion of the OP who has a vested interest. Here are the applicable sections both as far as I could tell:

    670. A "vehicle" is a device by which any person or property may be propelled, moved, or drawn upon a highway, excepting a device moved exclusively by human power or used exclusively upon stationary rails or tracks.

    21200. (a) Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited to, provisions concerning driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with Section 39000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.

    27007. No driver of a vehicle shall operate, or permit the operation of, any sound amplification system which can be heard outside the vehicle from 50 or more feet when the vehicle is being operated upon a highway, unless that system is being operated to request assistance or warn of a hazardous situation. This section shall not apply to authorized emergency vehicles or vehicles operated by gas, electric, communications, or water utilities. This section does not apply to the sound systems of vehicles used for advertising, or in parades, political or other special events, except that use of sound systems on those vehicles may be prohibited by a local authority by ordinance or resolution

    While section 670 says a bike is not a vehicle section 21200 says "a) Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited to,..". Note that section 27007 speaks NOT of the vehicle but the operator of the vehicle. IF it had said vehicles can not have sound systems then he would ahve a case, but it says the operator may not operate or permit to operate a sound system. And Bike riders have the same rights and responsibilities as drivers.

    Also note that section 21200 says including,but not limited to. So the section NOT being listed means nothing unless a very good argument can be made that a bike is fundamentally different from a car in this respect. I see no such argument as sound is sound.

  13. #13
    Last one to the top... Little Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    When you've made a convincing argument on the facts of the case, I may well be swayed. If instead you continue to troll in every CM-related thread you can find, I'll continue to believe you're a moron. I'm judging you not on the basis of an IQ test, but on your behavior - and I don't much care whether you also scored a 1600 on the SAT and were awarded a gold-foil star for your drawing of a pony, either. None of those tests apparently indicates the ability to reason and discuss the matter at hand, as evidenced by the "strength" your arguments.

    Have a nice evening yourself! It would be easy to wish you'd suffer a false arrest or a malicious, unjustified ticket as an experiment in whether a "superior" intellect can adapt via real-world experience, but nobody's deserving of these tactics - not even you, my friend. So go in peace.

    When you're ready to apologize for wishing ill on all CM cyclists because of the bad actions committed by a very few long ago, I'm certain we'll all be ready to listen
    I did not indicate (in any posts) that I wish ill against all CM cyclists. I simply think that this is a humorous twist. If CM was an organized group with the appropriate permits in place, the sound systems would apparently be perfectly legal...

    Please, show me one post of mine on this or any other forum where I said that I wished ill to all CM cyclists. If you find it, then an apology will be on its way, because that is a destructive position.

    I am not trying to argue for or against CM in this case, I simply saw a piece of irony I felt like pointing out. Look at my original post, I even said I hoped the OP got his equipment back.

    If I choose to hang out with people that push the envelope, I will gladly take the risk of unjustified treatment, as it is an unpleasant fact that social change isn't easy. However, I personally don't think CM (in its current state) is worth me taking that risk. They are indeed pushing the envelope... a good thing if the reason is right.

    On the positive side, I am looking forward to a potential splinter group, as I am sure they will develop with time, and one of those groups could do something I will support. So, I do see the good from CM, I just think that it is yet to come, and to continue the enthusiasm with a more focused cause is a growth stage that is needed.

    I am glad that Ghandi was persecuted, I am glad that Rosa Parks was persecuted... Not because I disagree with their stand, but because it proved their commitment to those OUTSIDE of their respective movements. When someone in CM takes that stance, and instead of complaining about unfair treatment because they want their stuff back, or they don't want to not pay a fine things will change in my mind. When someone instead can clearly state that what they stand for is worth paying the cost then the movement will be worth becoming involved with.

    Perhaps some day, I will even celebrate the efforts of those who have been involved with CM, but so far I see nobody proclaiming a cause I can get behind... If it is there, then I have simply missed it. I have no problem with people disrupting society for a cause, whether or not I believe in the cause, but CM riders I have read comments from explicitly say that they have no cause, so I simply don't get it.

    Calling me names will not enlighten me... Do you have any information that will?
    Slow Ride Cyclists of NEPA

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  14. #14
    Senior Member Thor29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    Perhaps some day, I will even celebrate the efforts of those who have been involved with CM, but so far I see nobody proclaiming a cause I can get behind... If it is there, then I have simply missed it. I have no problem with people disrupting society for a cause, whether or not I believe in the cause, but CM riders I have read comments from explicitly say that they have no cause, so I simply don't get it.

    Calling me names will not enlighten me... Do you have any information that will?
    Every time I ride in Critical Mass here in San Francisco I get the same feeling that I'd get seeing the sunset over the Grand Canyon. It is a beautiful thing to behold. All those people riding bikes and having fun, being able to ride down the middle of streets normally choked with stressed out car drivers - it is a cause unto itself. There is no need for an overt political agenda. There is no need for approval in the form of permits. We show up; we ride.

    Geez, do you look at the ocean and lament that all of that wave energy is being wasted on surfers or just moving the sand around? Have you ever done anything at all just for the fun of it? If you don't want to ride with us, then don't. No need to wish ill will on someone who was so thoughtful as to provide a sound system for those of us who do. Thanks bunnywrench, I hope you prevail against the joykillers.

  15. #15
    Bent_Rider
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    Why that's it, exactly. Being able to ride your bike in the street, in the city, without fear, next to people who are not trying to kill you. When I looked back up the Broadway tunnel, and saw all the bikes, that's the feeling I got, heart warming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29
    Every time I ride in Critical Mass here in San Francisco I get the same feeling that I'd get seeing the sunset over the Grand Canyon. It is a beautiful thing to behold. All those people riding bikes and having fun, being able to ride down the middle of streets normally choked with stressed out car drivers - it is a cause unto itself. There is no need for an overt political agenda. There is no need for approval in the form of permits. We show up; we ride.

    Geez, do you look at the ocean and lament that all of that wave energy is being wasted on surfers or just moving the sand around? Have you ever done anything at all just for the fun of it? If you don't want to ride with us, then don't. No need to wish ill will on someone who was so thoughtful as to provide a sound system for those of us who do. Thanks bunnywrench, I hope you prevail against the joykillers.

  16. #16
    Sweetened with Splenda
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    I did not indicate (in any posts) that I wish ill against all CM cyclists. I simply think that this is a humorous twist. If CM was an organized group with the appropriate permits in place, the sound systems would apparently be perfectly legal...

    Please, show me one post of mine on this or any other forum where I said that I wished ill to all CM cyclists. If you find it, then an apology will be on its way, because that is a destructive position.
    Dgregory57-

    I've just read through your post history, and it does appear that I've mistakenly conflated you with another user, and misremembered with whom I had a previous argument. Apparently I DO owe you an apology; the ill-reasoned anti-CM post I remembered from a previous discussion as having been yours was not.

    [edit]Here's the root of my mistake. In this thread Last Friday of the month again you were (incorrectly?) identified by somebody else as having your car abused in San Fransisco years ago; the gentleman with whom I had the previous discussion had suffered a similar misfortune. Which lead me to believe you were that gentleman. [/edit]

    -chris
    Last edited by brokenrobot; 11-01-05 at 08:53 PM.
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  17. #17
    Last one to the top... Little Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    Dgregory57-

    I've just read through your post history, and it does appear that I've mistakenly conflated you with another user, and misremembered with whom I had a previous argument. Apparently I DO owe you an apology; the ill-reasoned anti-CM post I remembered from a previous discussion as having been yours was not.

    [edit]Here's the root of my mistake. In this thread Last Friday of the month again you were (incorrectly?) identified by somebody else as having your car abused in San Fransisco years ago; the gentleman with whom I had the previous discussion had suffered a similar misfortune. Which lead me to believe you were that gentleman. [/edit]

    -chris
    Chris,

    Apology gladly accepted!

    I don't pretend to be pro-CM, (although I do hold out hope for the future) so I did start to doubt my posting style when I was seen as a troll.

    Now I can relax a little more.

    Oh, and in case there is any doubt, I have never suffered any inconvenience nor damage associated with CM. Although it is somewhat interesting that I lived in the SF area for about 20 years before my move at the start of this year.

    You have proven yourself to be a gentleman, and I suspect that we can have some lively debate when the opportunity arises!

    Actually I just realized... I could probably search posts and get clues, but you may have proven yourself a lady. Either way you have proven that you are capable of accepting responsibility, and I hope that I have the maturity to do as well as you if I get an opportunity.

    Let the debate continue!

    ... Darwin
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  18. #18
    Last one to the top... Little Darwin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor29
    Every time I ride in Critical Mass here in San Francisco I get the same feeling that I'd get seeing the sunset over the Grand Canyon. It is a beautiful thing to behold. All those people riding bikes and having fun, being able to ride down the middle of streets normally choked with stressed out car drivers - it is a cause unto itself. There is no need for an overt political agenda. There is no need for approval in the form of permits. We show up; we ride.

    Geez, do you look at the ocean and lament that all of that wave energy is being wasted on surfers or just moving the sand around? Have you ever done anything at all just for the fun of it? If you don't want to ride with us, then don't. No need to wish ill will on someone who was so thoughtful as to provide a sound system for those of us who do. Thanks bunnywrench, I hope you prevail against the joykillers.
    No, I love the ocean, so I don't lament the wasted motion. Also, I can improve my whole day by taking in a sunset. These analogies you draw are to wonderful things.

    My question now becomes, if CM is so wonderful, then why would you want to disturb it with music, or enhance the mood only for those with similar musical tastes? Would my blasting of my favorite music enhance your enjoyment of a sunset or the ocean? If CM is that awe inspiring, then keep the music at home, and let the artists compose a piece to capture the spirit of the event as they absorb the beauty and share it with the rest of the world...

    Philosophically I believe that one person's right to pleasure ends when it inhibits another person. The fact that you can find thousands of people to join you doesn't change that. As I stated, if there is a cause, I am in full support of civil disobedience (which I thought was the original intent of CM, when I actually found myself mildly supporting the idea of the event)... The fact that it is just for fun or a warm feeling doesn't add anything to my desire to embrace CM, although I must admit that it does make me curious about what I would experience were I to be there... Would the warmth and excitement over-ride my obsession that I was doing it at the cost of inconveniencing other people? I don't know that I am curious enough to find out unless it also makes a statement.
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  19. #19
    Banned Bikepacker67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brokenrobot
    Eh, you're a moron.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    I intentionally did not call anyone names, but I guess for some as long as you think your point is being made, getting along is a negative thing... (This seems to be the battle cry of CM)

    Here's a simple word problem for you. The sum of a moron's IQ plus my IQ is 200... Twice the moron's IQ is equal to half of mine. What is my IQ?

    In case you are wondering, my IQ is less than 10 points from the proper answer to the above question. I rounded up in order to make the problem easier.

    I sometimes have trouble in the same area you seem to struggle with, and attack the person making the argument instead of the argument itself. However, I have found the methodology less than effective and try to argue more logically.

    Have a nice evening!

    Apology will be accepted, but is not expected.

    LOL!
    Which is worse, Naked Ad Hominem or Pomposity masked as Civility?

    I love these threads!

  20. #20
    Bent_Rider
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    I hear what you're saying about the loud music, but the ride in SF is so large, it's easy to distance yourself from it. I personally do not like to get so close that I have to shout to be heard, but I find the music adds to the festive nature of the event. When there is no music around on the ride, folks are usually asking "where's the sound system?". The bystanders seem to be getting into the music too. The sound system guy's playlist is pretty diverse, so if you don't like one song, you will probably like another.
    You got to hand it to the guy, that sound system trailer and all the gear and battery must weigh a lot, and SF is not flat at all, to get to the ride, ride around for 2 hours and then get the rig home takes some gumption.

    Quote Originally Posted by dgregory57
    No, I love the ocean, so I don't lament the wasted motion. Also, I can improve my whole day by taking in a sunset. These analogies you draw are to wonderful things.

    My question now becomes, if CM is so wonderful, then why would you want to disturb it with music, or enhance the mood only for those with similar musical tastes? Would my blasting of my favorite music enhance your enjoyment of a sunset or the ocean? If CM is that awe inspiring, then keep the music at home, and let the artists compose a piece to capture the spirit of the event as they absorb the beauty and share it with the rest of the world...

    Philosophically I believe that one person's right to pleasure ends when it inhibits another person. The fact that you can find thousands of people to join you doesn't change that. As I stated, if there is a cause, I am in full support of civil disobedience (which I thought was the original intent of CM, when I actually found myself mildly supporting the idea of the event)... The fact that it is just for fun or a warm feeling doesn't add anything to my desire to embrace CM, although I must admit that it does make me curious about what I would experience were I to be there... Would the warmth and excitement over-ride my obsession that I was doing it at the cost of inconveniencing other people? I don't know that I am curious enough to find out unless it also makes a statement.

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