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Old 09-24-02, 03:00 PM   #1
webist
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Another "Helmetless" Death

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin..._10289864.html

Story ends this way:

"Williams was not wearing a helmet."
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Old 09-24-02, 03:18 PM   #2
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christ that is a tragic waste of a life. When I read of hit and run drivers it makes me want to do orrible things to them:irritated

But even a helmet would have been unlikely to save that woman or any cyclist in that particular situation.

I know helmets improve our odds of survival in a spill or accident but I do feel it is drawing attention away from the real culprets errant drivers who don't give a f*** (scuse my French) about any other road users and ignorant drivers who are just too stupid or inconsiderate to look out for other road users or pedestrians.

:irritated :irritated ooooooh it makes my blood boil:irritated :irritated
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Old 09-24-02, 05:02 PM   #3
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Last friday night the car in front of mine rearended the car in front of it. We were traveling on a 2 lane highway at approximately 55 mph. The car that was rearended crossed the center line and sideswiped an oncoming car. Each vehicle went off onto opposite sides of the road. Now the idiot that did this didn't even slow down he just kept on driving! No one had a good description of the vehicle due to the sun setting and causing a horrible glare on the road. My friends and I stopped to assist the others and what did we find??? Drum roll please.........................
The friggin idiots license plate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would have loved to gone with the police to see his reaction.
How cool is that!
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Old 09-24-02, 05:54 PM   #4
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Originally posted by Jeepbikerun
Last friday night the car in front of mine rearended the car in front of it. We were traveling on a 2 lane highway at approximately 55 mph. The car that was rearended crossed the center line and sideswiped an oncoming car. Each vehicle went off onto opposite sides of the road. Now the idiot that did this didn't even slow down he just kept on driving! No one had a good description of the vehicle due to the sun setting and causing a horrible glare on the road. My friends and I stopped to assist the others and what did we find??? Drum roll please.........................
The friggin idiots license plate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would have loved to gone with the police to see his reaction.
How cool is that!
If I had nothing to do, I would have went to the station to see the bastard.
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Old 09-24-02, 06:55 PM   #5
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Originally posted by Jeepbikerun
Last friday night the car in front of mine rearended the car in front of it. We were traveling on a 2 lane highway at approximately 55 mph. The car that was rearended crossed the center line and sideswiped an oncoming car. Each vehicle went off onto opposite sides of the road. Now the idiot that did this didn't even slow down he just kept on driving! No one had a good description of the vehicle due to the sun setting and causing a horrible glare on the road. My friends and I stopped to assist the others and what did we find??? Drum roll please.........................
The friggin idiots license plate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would have loved to gone with the police to see his reaction.
How cool is that!
BWAHAHAHAAAA!!!! :fun: :thumbup:
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Old 09-24-02, 08:59 PM   #6
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[/B]My friends and I stopped to assist the others and what did we find??? Drum roll please.........................
The friggin idiots license plate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would have loved to gone with the police to see his reaction.
How cool is that! [/B]
Unfortunately, there's a good chance that the idiot bought the car at an auction and never retitled the car. People commonly do that in my state (Texas) if the car still has the original plates. The last owner may get a surprise.

I donated a car once to charity and about two years later got a notice from a nearby city that the car was in a hit and run and I was presumed to be the driver since I was the last owner on record. I had to send in a copy of my donation receipt to prove I was no longer the owner of the car. I also learned my lesson about leaving the plates on a car I was donating!
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Old 09-24-02, 09:34 PM   #7
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I don't know what's more pathetic, that so many people actually believe a thin piece of styrofoam would be effective in preventing major impacts to the head (as in a bike-car accident) from being fatal, or that many of those same people are the ones who would legislate their use (only on bicycles, of course).
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Old 09-24-02, 11:27 PM   #8
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Originally posted by bikerider
I don't know what's more pathetic, that so many people actually believe a thin piece of styrofoam would be effective in preventing major impacts to the head (as in a bike-car accident) from being fatal, or that many of those same people are the ones who would legislate their use (only on bicycles, of course).
I've seen this kind of comment a couple of times on this forum and have decided that what you all need to do (those who hold the above belief)some homework and research exactly how a helmet works in an impact situation. I am not saying that wearing one would of saved this woman what I do know by the facts is that not wearing one did not save her! I personally have used a helmet twice in impact situations and have come out with flying colors, so I will continue to wear mine. They are stronger than you think!
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Old 09-25-02, 02:04 AM   #9
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I don't know what's more pathetic, that so many people actually believe a thin piece of styrofoam would be effective in preventing major impacts to the head (as in a bike-car accident) from being fatal, or that many of those same people are the ones who would legislate their use (only on bicycles, of course).
i totally catch your drift and i am a little divided on this one. On the one hand, i know PERSONALLY that a helmet can save your life as i had a MAJOR accident 2 years ago where i flew 20 feet in the air and landed head-first and ended up with 2 broken teeth, broken nose, torn lower lip and lots of missing skin on my face (it healed miracuously well) -- w/o a helmet it would have been worse or even fatal (it shattered on impact as designed which is why i had so many other minor injuries b/c i slid on my face without a helmet or any protection). i wear my helmet most of the time, although sometimes not for short or easy rides in the city (always offroad or racing) -- daily commuting about 80% (i forget some days)

and i think it's good that there is a movement to educate people to the benefits of wearing a helmet...

BUT, a helmet only does so much and especially in accidents involving cars often does little --- if a car impacts you at 30mph you're messed up whether you have a helmet or not -- and i dislike the fact that so much safety attention is placed on HELMETS rather than safe riding OR even more importantly POOR AUTO DRIVERS -- that is the real danger and the area where we need to eductae and "teach" the public.

i often hear people say "oh, he wasn't wearing a helmet" as a blanket statement meaning: he wasn't being safe so he deserves whatever happened to him, which i totally disagree with. it's still a personal choice and you can still be relatively "safe" while not wearing a helmet --- again, i choose to wear mine most of the time for cycling as well as skiing, snowboarding and inline skating.

#1 -- we need to decrease the danger from car drivers to cylists. then w/ a decreased auto-collision danger, wearing a helmet really does improve safety (i.e. in a solo collision where impacting the pavement is the biggest danger a helmet REALLY helps)
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Old 09-25-02, 09:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by bikerider
I don't know what's more pathetic, that so many people actually believe a thin piece of styrofoam would be effective in preventing major impacts to the head (as in a bike-car accident) from being fatal, or that many of those same people are the ones who would legislate their use (only on bicycles, of course).
I was just looking at some cycling safety studies and one stat that sticks out is that only 10% of all cycling accidents involve a motor vehicle. So, yes, I do believe a thin piece of styrofoam is adequate for the other 90% and probably for the portion of the other 10%, especially where a direct hit is not a factor.
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Old 09-25-02, 09:48 AM   #11
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To harp on the hit&run yahoos some more...

Such callous behavior is the norm here in Philadelphia. It really makes me ill. People - children esp. - are getting mowed over constantly by red-light runners (another anti-social epidemic here), and more often than not the driver won't even feather the brakes. I hope there is a special place in hell for those people, b/c earthly justice doesn't seem to touch them.

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Old 09-25-02, 10:04 AM   #12
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What I don't understand is why so many of these types of stories say that 'witnesses were unable to get a good description of the car'. Presumably most of these witnesses are drivers, why the hell can't they follow the hit-and-run criminal and get their license plate number, or at least a better description of the vehicle.

Last November I was right-hooked by a driver coming from the fast lane and shooting across the entire road to get on an on-ramp. I was riding 30mph. I can't believe how lucky I was; it had just rained, so I just slid down the street on my layered rain/winter gear. But under most circumstances, it would have been a horrible accident. One driver stopped beside me to help, but all of the other drivers just stopped on the ramp to gawk. !@#$ing chase the driver down! Get his license plate number! I yelled that to them but they wouldn't listen.

I was with about 15 other cyclists in Sept.'01 in the right lane of a three-lane road, and an SUV driver was annoyed that we were in the way, so he ran one of us over. The fool tried to run away, but since we were in the city, we chased him down and got his plate about a mile or so away, after following his winding path through the traffic grid. When he saw that we got it, he stopped and we all waited for the cops. Of course then the cops were trying to say it wasn't hit-and-run because we weren't that far away from the crash site (!@#$ing cops), but the outcome was still a lot better than letting him get away.

I don't know if I'm preaching to the choir here or not, but more people need to try to catch these a$$holes, because there will always be plenty of people to help the victim and to stand around and stare. Automobile drivers need to stop being able to routinely get away with murder.
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Old 09-25-02, 10:46 AM   #13
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Hear hear Morsen

We all have an obligation to see justice served.

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Old 09-25-02, 05:38 PM   #14
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Morsen, what happened to the poor guy who was run over?

A bike courier died here last week. Poor guy. But he did two stupid things- he went through a red light at a busy downtown intersection, and was not wearing a helmet. He was hit by a van. A helmet may not hav prevented the otehr injuries, but he may not have died. You really have to be nuts riding downtown with no helmet but lots of couriers do just that.
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Old 09-25-02, 06:32 PM   #15
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Posted by me:I don't know what's more pathetic, that so many people actually believe a thin piece of styrofoam would be effective in preventing major impacts to the head (as in a bike-car accident) from being fatal, or that many of those same people are the ones who would legislate their use (only on bicycles, of course).
Quote:
Originally posted by Steele-Bike
I was just looking at some cycling safety studies and one stat that sticks out is that only 10% of all cycling accidents involve a motor vehicle. So, yes, I do believe a thin piece of styrofoam is adequate for the other 90% and probably for the portion of the other 10%, especially where a direct hit is not a factor.
Did you even read that to which you are responding? You have constructed a straw man argument here - I was speaking of fatalities and car-bike collisions are where most of the fatalities occur.

I can guess where you stand on the legislation issue.
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Old 09-25-02, 06:42 PM   #16
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Originally posted by nathank


i totally catch your drift and i am a little divided on this one. On the one hand, i know PERSONALLY that a helmet can save your life as i had a MAJOR accident 2 years ago where i flew 20 feet in the air and landed head-first and ended up with 2 broken teeth, broken nose, torn lower lip and lots of missing skin on my face (it healed miracuously well) -- w/o a helmet it would have been worse or even fatal (it shattered on impact as designed which is why i had so many other minor injuries b/c i slid on my face without a helmet or any protection). i wear my helmet most of the time, although sometimes not for short or easy rides in the city (always offroad or racing) -- daily commuting about 80% (i forget some days)
I'm about the same, although I've never had an accident where I 'put the helmet to the test' as they say. I like it offroad, since there are so many places I have to 'duck'!

Quote:
and i think it's good that there is a movement to educate people to the benefits of wearing a helmet...

BUT, a helmet only does so much and especially in accidents involving cars often does little --- if a car impacts you at 30mph you're messed up whether you have a helmet or not -- and i dislike the fact that so much safety attention is placed on HELMETS rather than safe riding OR even more importantly POOR AUTO DRIVERS -- that is the real danger and the area where we need to eductae and "teach" the public.

i often hear people say "oh, he wasn't wearing a helmet" as a blanket statement meaning: he wasn't being safe so he deserves whatever happened to him, which i totally disagree with. it's still a personal choice and you can still be relatively "safe" while not wearing a helmet --- again, i choose to wear mine most of the time for cycling as well as skiing, snowboarding and inline skating.

#1 -- we need to decrease the danger from car drivers to cylists. then w/ a decreased auto-collision danger, wearing a helmet really does improve safety (i.e. in a solo collision where impacting the pavement is the biggest danger a helmet REALLY helps)
I couldn't agree more, though I leave the helmet lecture to others since it seems to be a major source of personal pride for them. I would be happy to leave the subject alone and just ride my bike but those who would prescribe to others what to put on their heads (by law, if need be) love to make ridiculously broad and disparaging remarks which don't have much of a grounding in reality if one wants to debate the statistics.
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Old 09-25-02, 07:11 PM   #17
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Originally posted by ngateguy
I've seen this kind of comment a couple of times on this forum and have decided that what you all need to do (those who hold the above belief)some homework and research exactly how a helmet works in an impact situation.
Well, how perfectly condescending and vague. I have reasearched the subject quite well, as I usually do before making such strong comments.

Quote:
I am not saying that wearing one would of saved this woman what I do know by the facts is that not wearing one did not save her! I personally have used a helmet twice in impact situations and have come out with flying colors, so I will continue to wear mine. They are stronger than you think!
Well! Given the pompousness of your first paragraph, I was expecting a lecture on accident physics and human physiology.

I do agree that people who hit their heads a lot should consider wearing a helmet, though I will leave them to figure it out.
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Old 09-25-02, 08:08 PM   #18
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Bikerider,

What I was refering to was the fact that most bike-car accidents are not direct, high speed impacts. Most are low speed or glancing side-swipes. And for the record, I am very much against the legislation of just about anything. But, I am a ardent supporter of common sense.
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Old 09-26-02, 06:01 AM   #19
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There is nothing worse than a law that is there to protect me. Unless it is to protect me from myself. I can handle both much better than the government can. Helmets are good in lots of crashes and not in others. It's your head do with it what you want. I wear mine when I want to and don't when I feel like not wearinf it.
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Old 09-27-02, 04:09 PM   #20
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On a humorous note:
There was a guy here in town who was drunk riding his bike without a helmet. He went too fast down a hill, missed his turn and smacked into a tree head first. He was dead when they found him. Glad it wasn't my yard.

When I lived in Portland I had very little money. I finally scraped up $30 to buy an old orange Austrian road bike of some sort. It even had white fenders. Being that I NEEDED it for transportation and had not a dime left, I did not have a helmet. It bothered me, but I didn't see any free helmet programs giving me one. Well some "good samaritan" condescendingly yelled at me from his fancy racing bike, "get a helmet!". Of course I didn't see him giving me one. I hate to be lectured. If the gov't is going to get involved they should start subsidizing helmets first before mandating them for everyone. Even now, if I were to break mine in a fall, it would be an annoying expense. $35 is a lot to me.

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Old 09-27-02, 07:50 PM   #21
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Most Americans want to live in a "Daddy State," but not a "Nanny State."

Definitions:
1) Daddy State: The government protects you from others.
2) Nanny State: The government protects you from yourself, as well.

Practical examples:
1) D.S.: laws against drunk or reckless driving
2) N.S.: mandatory helmet legislation


Forget the helmet debate, gang. [For the record, I always wear one while cycling and believe they can reduce head trauma in certain types of collisions, but I also oppose mandatory helmet legislation (MHL) and recognize the reality of risk compensation.] Let's focus on the REAL problem: distracted, aggressive, incompetent, and/or inebriated motorists.

There is a practical argument against MHL -- in a tragedy such as the one reported at the start of this thread, irrespective of whether a helmet would have made any difference, would the perpetrator be at least partly exonerated because the victim was unhelmeted and therefore presumably negligent and partly responsible?
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Old 09-28-02, 01:33 AM   #22
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These helmet arguments are becomming pathetic! Anything which can prevent or alleviate the effects of an accident are to be encouraged.
Claiming that helmets are "useless" is pure stupiduity veiled behind the usual well reserched verbiage...

If you ain't been there you ain't done it.

Anybody I know who has been the victim of a road accident does not scorn safety code, laws or no laws!

Seems to me that the only thing free in this life is bullsh*t

Have a nice safe day
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Old 10-13-02, 10:30 PM   #23
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bikerider:

I find it pathetic that a bag of air can prevent certain death in a car crash

I find it pathetic that a kevlar vest stop a bullet

I find it pathetic that a big piece of 3M tape can stop glass from shattering

I find it pathetic that thin skin prevents infection

I find it pathetic that a layer of bone prevents brain injury

I find it pathetic that a thin woven belt prevents someone from flying through their windshield


Guess what buddy? You put some "Styrofoam" between your head and a hard object, and it will absorb the a lot of the impact. No, it will not stop a train from decapitating you. But yes, it will reduce your risk of getting a cerebral hemorrhage when you strike your head on a log.

I don't read these forums much, but when I do, I often see you (yes you, bikerider) arguing as to why helmets are so "pathetic." You rarely put up an argument as to why helmets are bad in general. Instead, you take the wimpy argument that you personally do not need a helmet. Unlike you, most people are imperfect mountain bikers, as such, most of us do hit our heads on occasion. Most people do not want to hear time and time again why you personally are against helmets. You never provide a strong argument, other than "I never hit my head."

NO ONE can dispute the fact that wearing a good helmet would VASTLY reduce the injury caused by, say, 1-inch diameter branch striking your head at 30km/h. Indeed, it could mean the difference between a minor/moderate concussion and a scratched/cracked helmet shell.

In a collision with a car (low speed), a helmet could mean the difference between a severe concussion and massive bleeding (from sharp glass), or ringing ears and a sprained neck.

OBVIOUSLY, a helmet will not prevent all types of head injuries. For example, if you were to hit your head on a car face first, the helmet might not help you at all (unless it was full-face). However, the fact that there is a HIGH probability of hitting your head where a helmet would normally cover should be reason to wear a helmet.

I do not care if you wear a helmet or not. However, I do care that people like you continually spread false, anti-helmet sentiments that cause younger folk to cling to the "knowledge" of older, non-helmet wearing riders.
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Old 10-13-02, 11:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
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However, the fact that there is a HIGH probability of hitting your head where a helmet would normally cover should be reason to wear a helmet.
I have to replace my helmet. As I posted in another thread (look in Mountain Biking - "I wear my sunglasses at night..."), my helmet saved me from possible severe head injury today. The helmet I have to replace had replaced a helmet that I had cracked in a similar situation about a year and a half ago (high speed faceplant) and that helmet did its job perfectly too. I agree that forcing people to wear helmets is possibly a bad thing. Do I personally think everyone should? Yes. But I've fought enough futile battles in my life to realise that it's pointless to force or try to enforce mandatory bike helmet laws. I'm just glad that helmets have been there on my head in those critical moments to allow me to continue using [my head] to continue to wear one on every ride.
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Old 10-14-02, 07:47 AM   #25
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Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Quote:
Originally posted by bikerider

I do agree that people who hit their heads a lot should consider wearing a helmet, though I will leave them to figure it out.
As in "only people who get their homes broken into need insurance"? Yeah, right, it's their fault they got robbed. Surely they could have done something to prevent that.

--J
__________________
To err is human. To moo is bovine.

Who is this General Failure anyway, and why is he reading my drive?


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