Brian Ratliff

The Vespa ET2 Limited sounds like it has a speed limiter. The full version (same moter size) can get up to 40 mph. I doubt you see the Limited version outside restricted areas, certainly not on arterial streets.

See here for the Vespa ET2

Helmet Head

According to your definition, my Dad's 2 cylinder 500cc Fiat 500 car was "power limited" and should have been driven like a bicycle. I agree, bicycles should be ridden much like like a Fiat 500 is driven.

Serge

genec

I would venture to say that there are more active cyclists around then riders of low powered scooters... and those that do ride these things DO ride in the BL... at least the one or two I have seen on Genesee do. Further... like newbie cyclists... perhaps there is an advocacy group and you just don't know it. Either that or they depend on cyclists to do it all for them... at least until the scooter folks "grow up" and get a car.

The real question of course is how many adults do you see on these low powered scooters... vice how many older adults you see on bicycles. These low powered scooters are usually a stepping stone to something else, where as some cyclists ride all their lives.

patc

There's not much talking going on, at least not in the sense of "mutual exchange of opinions and related discussion", and that is exactly my objection. As for cycling styles and facilities, that is very much what I do want to talk about, including the stuff I don't think would work locally.

Dchiefransom

Found it. Couldn't find a difference in price, though. I'm wondering how many will choose a 25 mph scooter over a 40 mph scooter, although Pep Boys has a 30 mph electric scooter for a 5th of that price.
Of course, to make the comparisons in riding styles valid, we need to have bicyclists pass a test just for bicycles, have a front a rear lighting system that works better, including brake lights and turn signals, and we also need to install license plates on our registered bicycles. That's part of the difference between a motor scooter and bicycle that are both riding on the road. On top of that, any traffic violations by a cyclist will have to be treated the same as on a motor scooter.

Helmet Head

I suspect that in some jurisdictions the Limited doesn't require a special motor cycle drivers license, while the regular one does.

CommuterRun

No, and riding them in traffic is comparable. Cyclists have no more need for special facilities than do Vespa riders.

I-Like-To-Bike

If bicycles were ridden like Italians drive their Fiats it is quite likely to find them on the sidewalks when the road is crowded or it looks like a good shortcut through traffic.

Brian Ratliff

It has a top speed of nearly 60 mph. So yes, power limited, but not nearly so much as even the vespa, much less a bicycle.

When I talk about power limited, I am talking about in the speed range of normal traffic roads: 25-40 mph. I doubt this car is significantly power limited in this speed range. It should be obvious that this falls far outside the performance parameters of your average cyclist or even a Mario Cippolini (once the fastest road cyclist in Europe) for that matter.

Helmet Head

Hey, I was just going by your criteria.


According to that, the Fiat 500 is "power limited".

Helmet Head

Anyway, keep thinking about this analogy, folks.

So several of you have pointed out that low power motor scooters are generally not driven on arterials, or if they are, they use bike lanes. What are the implications to cyclists? I can't think of any arterials where at least some experienced wouldn't ride. What does that say about our expectations for cyclist ability to travel vs. low-power motor scooters?

Not sure where this is going, but it's food for thought.

Have a good weekend.

sbhikes

Oh that little car is sooooo cute!!!

I don't think the analogy works. A motorized vehicle behaves a lot differently from a human powered vehicle, and a mechanized vehicle behaves a lot differently from a non-mechanized human (a pedestrian).

biodiesel

Better Question...
What happens to my "Bicycle" when i add an electric motor on it?
Do i become an electric scooter? Or a electric/ beer hybrid?

The scooter laws say that a scooter can't travel more than 30 mph, but on a light downhill a racing bike can travel more than 30mph without assistance. Bicycle laws say we have to ride 'as far right as practicable' (what if i'm going the speed of traffic?) And if i'm a 'scooter' with the motor what if i leave the battery unplugged (or at home...) In the UK they used to have a bunch of well evolved Moped laws for either motoring or pedalling. I've looked around and the US dosn't seem to.
Can't wait to put an electric assist BB on my roadie, add 10% push to my commute. Since it's in the BB it dosn't know what speed i'm going, my sprints could be epic! (Unfortunately none sold in the US and can't find a European one that would fit my BB...)

JRA

I have followed your instructions. I have thought about the analogy and have also thought about this forum in general and this thread in particular.

According to post #21 by John E, the motorcycle analogy arose in emails within the San Diego County Bicycle Coalition. You confirm this in post #23:


It might have been useful. The discussion within the SD County Bicycle Coalition seems not to have been as absurd as the discussion here has been.

The discussion seems to have lost a lot in the translation. The problem is the thread title, the poll question and the original post. I said in a previous post (post #23), "I understood your question. I simply thought it was stupid...". Perhaps "stupid" was not the best word. "Silly", "absurd" or "laughable" would have been better.

Saying that a bicycle can be ridden the same as a motorcycle that performs like a bicycle is pointless. It's simply stating the obvious.

Perhaps it's possible to find a two-wheeled vehicle with a motor that has performance characteristics similar to those of a bicycle and rider, but calling such a thing a "motorcycle" is nothing but a semantic trick.

As if the fact that this thread begins with what is either an absurd premise or a semantic trick ("a bicycle is a motor cycle") weren't enough, there is a distinct anti-facilities bias to the poll choices and the original post.

From poll option 1: "Cyclists have no more need for special facilities than do Vespa riders."

From the original post: "Why is there a need for special facilities for bicycles, but not for Vespas?"

It looks like standard anti-facilities propaganda. There was no need to mention facilities at all.

The thread title, the poll and the original post are all lame (about as lame as the mythical "motor cycle" that is a bicycle).

OK, Serge, we get it. Bike lanes suck. Facilities suck. There is only one right way to ride: alpha dog VC. Yada, yada, yada. Pretend your bicycle is a car. Pretend your bicycle is a motorcycle. Pretend your bicycle is anything but a bicycle- because thinking of a bicycle as a bicycle would make sense- and you can't be an alpha dog VC-ist and make sense (it's been proven in clinical tests).

Attitude is everything (thank you, Andre Agassi). If you imagine that you are invincible, you will be. It's a bird! It's a plane! It's super VC-ist!

Sheesh!

And you're so absurdly literal sometimes.

And you play such silly word games:


The "bicycle is a motorcycle" analogy implies exactly what you claim it doesn't imply. Play all the word games you want. Maybe you can convince yourself that up is down. It has been amusing seeing all the contortions you have gone through trying to define a "motorcycle" that is so lame that it makes the analogy seem reasonable. The analogy is absurd. The silver lining is that it's amusing.

Talk about word games:


Yea, buddy. People really should have picked up on that space. Every good space cadet knows that inserting a space changes the meaning of "motorcycle". But, Serge, you forgot the space in the poll question itself.

You claim:


Actually, you implied that bikes are motorcycles. The thread title, "Isn't a bicycle a motor cycle?", implies an answer, isn't that so? To ask a question without impling an answer, the word "is" would be used, not "isn't". "Isn't" implies that the answer is "yes".

You imply that perhaps the thread title was misleading:


Oh, of course.

Perhaps misunderstandings stem not so much from reading comprhension problems but more from writing problems.

I said (post #12): I wonder why you so often assume that people who disagree with you don't understand or have reading comprhension problems.


You apparently have some reading comprehension problems of your own. When I used the the word "everyone", I was engaging in hyperbole but, in hindsight, I should have known that such a concept is difficult for some to grasp.


I was being facetious but perhaps that concept is also beyond your grasp.

This is one of the funniest (silliest) threads I have ever seen, not just in this forum, but anywhere.

Yea, a bicycle is a motor cycle.

Good one!

JRA

I agree. I've been a moderator on another forum for a number of years and have become something of a student of the type of poster that may cause significant problems in a forum. It's never newbies (the biggest problem with newbies is that regulars often drive them off). Contrary to what some might think, the problem is almost never trolls, either. Trolls are fairly easy to deal with. Most trolls eventually get tired and go away. And, besides, it's usually pretty obvious to everybody that a troll is a troll.

The real problem is an ideologue with some kind of axe to grind (usually a political axe). These posters often have considerable knowledge and many people find much of what they say informative. But their incessant propagandizing and promotion of their cause drives others nuts. And there's no way to reason with them (they are ideologues, after all). Some people try to argue with them but soon realise that arguing with an ideologue is pointless and either give up or begin making snide, often amusing, comments. But nothing deters an ideologue.

We've had a few interesting cases of issue oriented problem posters over the years, one of which was absolutely 'textbook'. I personally found some of what he said fascinating (I simply ignored the rest of what he said). But he posted the same tired old politically motivated comments over and over again (always about the same issue), hijacking thread after thread in the process. I handled this in my forum by simply moving any post in which he even mentioned a certain issue to a separate thread (it worked for me but he caused so much trouble in other forums that he was eventually banned from the board).

So, yea, the problem is almost always an issue-oriented ideologue of some kind.

patc

Other than a bit of moderating technical forums (VERY on-topic only), most of my related experience comes from years of facilitating peer support/discussion groups. I remember one training session where the instructor wrote the word "ISSUES" on the board in huge letters, then proceeded to tell us that most problems we would encounter would be from (a) issue-driven people (what you call issue-oriented ideologues, nice term) or (b) people with issues. Often the same person, really. A forum like BikeForums.net is a very different environment than group discussions, but its amazing how similar the dynamics are.

Moderating is a tricky business... either too much or too little can ruin a forum. Frankly I'm not good at the on-line version.

Helmet Head

In another thread, Gene recently wrote:


Good idea, Gene!

I wish I had thought of that!

Bekologist

I see Helemt Head has ressurected a thread where he confuses once again a Human Powered vehicle with a machine powered vehicle! a little "cyclicular vehicling", anyone?

I'm having illusory notions of him driving his Ducati or RV down the bike lane. no thanks.


bikes are not vespas. vespas are not bikes. bikes and vespas are both slow moving vehicles.

vespas are not oxcarts. oxcarts are not bicycles. oxen are not human. vespas are not oxen. both oxcarts and vespas are slow moving vehicles.

bulldozers are not bikes. bulldozers are not vespas. both vespas and bulldozers are slow moving vehicles.

No, bikes are not in the same 'class' of vehicles as vespas, bulldozers, transit buses, or cabbage carts.

Helmet Head

Are cabbage carts in the same 'class' of vehicles as bulldozers?
Are buses in the same 'class' as vespas?
Are Pintos in the same class as Suburbans?

There are all kinds of vehicles that vary from one end of the scale to the other in terms of physical and operating characteristics. But what they have in common is that the operators all have the SAME rights and responsibilities to operate their very different kinds of vehicles on the same roads with all the other vehicles. Being different does not change this.

Bekologist

I'm more amused by the 'notion' rather than any meaningful debate on this, HH. 75 percent of poll respondants gave your 'notion' the heave ho six months ago.

this more fuel for the 'notion neurosis' hysteria you're feeling? I recommend a nice bike ride

Helmet Head

As JRA pointed out, I blew it from the get-go with the title of this thread, which was an abridged version of the real question, which was posed in the actual poll. But I think most people just took the thread title literally, and answered that.

spokewrench55

Perhaps the difference is in the issues of design and regulations. A small scooter has a known GVW, a known power output, a known max speed, brakes that meet regulated standards, DOT approved lights and other required equipment. It is designed within certain known parameters that allow it to be practically regulated.

So when you buy your 50cc licensed scooter it is a given that it can perform on a level that will make it up to the traffic demands found on arterial roads, although it is not legal or capable on the expressway. This is something we know because the road system that you are riding the thing on is also designed along certain established parameters. The parameters of a road designed for automobile traffic. Finally, the operator of the scooter is also required to meet a certain standard of competency and must pass a standard test to get a license to ride the thing.

Should your Vespa fall into such a state of disrepair it can no longer meet these standard it is required to meet to earn it's regulated class rating, a friendly law officer will obligate you to remove it from the road.

In other words 50cc Vespas don't need special facilities because they are designed to meet the standards of the auto roads they are heading out on.

Bicycles, however, cannot meet the standards of traffic Americas auto roads were designrd for. At least the overwhelming majority cannot.

Since we are speaking only in practical terms, and especially putting aside legal terminology, I see very few normal auto roads in the US where bicycles do not create an obstruction or a hazard to some degree, despite their legal right to be there.

Bicycles come in a myriad of capabilities and sizes, the riders have no uniform skill requirements they must meet for a license, they have an infinate range of outputs which constantly changes. While there are certainly some who (doubtful) believe they can perform on the level of a road legal scooter, the vast majority of Americans can probably pedal on a level some cyclists could push the Vespa.

-=(8)=-

Having owned a Vespa-Stella I can assure you there is absolutely no
comparison to be made between a bicycle and a Vespa....The poll might
as well say "Dont you think Bicycles should be treated like trains and be
able to use the same tracks" . Also, an old Vespa can go 50-55mph
in a mediocre state of tune. I have also owned more motorcycles than I can
count and the similarities between them and a bicycle although more than a
Vespa are few and far between....basically they share the similarity of having
two wheels but thats about it. To stray from the topic a little.......The bicycles
are what I enjoy riding the most !

CommuterRun

No, they're not the same animal. However, riding them in traffic is very comparable. All two wheeled vehicles face much the same hazards on the road. Cyclists have no more need for special facilities than do Vespa riders.

-=(8)=-

^^^^ To me, a motorcycle is much more dangerous than a bicycle
but I feel safer on the MC than the bicycle.