Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-02-05, 08:04 AM   #1
Bekologist
totally louche
Thread Starter
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Why VC Advocacy is NOT Cycling Advocacy

Here's my analogy.


Everyone's at the pool, at the diving pool. There's 1 meter springboards, 3 meter springboards, the 4.5., 5, 7.5 and 10 meter platforms as well.


VC divers dive from the 10 meter platform, yet 95 percent of the pool users choose to use the 3 meter and 1 meter springboards and the lower platforms.

Very few divers are good enough to dive from the 10 meter platform, yet everyone falls the same, last 1 meter into the pool.

The VC diver is on the 10 meter platform and demanding everyone dive from 10 meters and wants the pool to tear out the 1 meter boards and get everyone diving off the 10 meter platform.

Instead of recognizing most pool users will always be using the lesser platforms and springboards, REGARDLESS of how many diving classes the pool offers.


This is why I feel vehicular diving will never work as diving advocacy.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 08:11 AM   #2
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
Here's my analogy.

The VC diver is on the 10 meter platform and demanding everyone dive from 10 meters and wants the pool to tear out the 1 meter boards and get everyone diving off the 10 meter platform.
You left out the VC diver chanting a mantra that those who dive from the 10 meter board "fare best" AND are 400% safer than those incompetent and untrained divers too afraid to be a REAL/SERIOUS diver like "we-VC" divers.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 08:38 AM   #3
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It seems to me, that to be a true vehicular diver, you would need to have a dead mobster stuffed in your pants when you dive.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 08:41 AM   #4
LCI_Brian
Senior Member
 
LCI_Brian's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: in the hills of Orange, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 1,355
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
But you forgot to talk about the kiddie pool???
LCI_Brian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 08:59 AM   #5
Alekhine
1. e4 Nf6
 
Alekhine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 7844`W, 4246`N
Bikes: Mercian KoM with Rohloff, Bike Friday NWT, Pogliaghi Italcorse (1979)
Posts: 872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
But you forgot to talk about the kiddie pool???
lol.

I assume this is analogous to the bicycle lane?
Alekhine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 09:06 AM   #6
The Seldom Kill
imminent danger
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Or rather more importantly that VC isn't necessarily suitable for children yet we have a very strong obligation to advocate for their rights and safety.
The Seldom Kill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 09:11 AM   #7
sbhikes
Dominatrikes
 
sbhikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Posts: 4,920
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I'm not sure I agree with that analogy. I think I see it more this way:

In your pool, some like to dive, some like to swim laps and some like to just bob around on innertubes.

The lap swimmers have a couple of lanes roped off so that they don't bump into the bobbers or get dived into by the divers.

Some swimmers think there should be no roped off lanes. As long as the swimmers stay right in front of the divers they won't get dived into because naturally nobody dives into anybody in their path. The divers will wait patiently until the lap is completed and then happily dive away.

The non-roped-off situation existed way before and always worked fine so these anti-rope swimmers can't understand why they need separate lanes. It limits their freedom to swim anywhere they want. Plus it's no hardship for the divers to wait.

Problem is, since the ropes were installed the number of lap swimmers has increased. The number of diving boards and divers have increased. A free-for-all in the pool works ok when there aren't very many swimmers and divers, and when everybody swims and dives courteously among the bobbers.

But courtesy is gone now too. As the divers freeze to death during the few seconds they must wait on the platform they start cursing the lap swimmers. Some decide to teach them a lesson by diving into them just barely missing them, hoping they'll get the hint and get the heck out of "their" pool. After all, diving requires the diving boards and they all had to pay fees for the extra boards and those dang lap swimmers don't pay any fees--everybody knows that. Whenever one swimmer gets dived into, articles are written in the paper blaming the freeloading, non-fee-paying swimmer and not holding the diver accountable at all.

Still, a few lap swimmers demonstrate that with careful positioning and quick reflexes (and steely-eyed gazes) it is possible to swim laps safely in the midst of all the divers. Although that may be true, and certainly those skills are good ones to have for when you swim in a pool with no special lap lanes, many lap swimmers prefer the lanes. They have learned how to use them, how to detect the bobbers that might float into their paths suddenly, avoid the errant divers that dive from the side without looking, the other swimmers out in the non-roped part of the pool who may try to cut across the lanes. They've also learned how to leave the lanes when it's time to get out of the pool or to avoid floating baby-ruth bars. It all seems to work very well for them and they find the experience to be very pleasant.

So, who's way is best? Why can't the lap swimmers have and enjoy their lanes, and the anti-lap swimmers stay out of the lap lanes and stop trying to blame them for every danger in the pool? If you get rid of the lanes, the lap swimmers have lost what they enjoy. If you keep the lanes the anti-lap swimmers lose nothing because they don't use them anyway. But the whole argument is all wrapped up in faint machismo with near religeous overtones so nobody can see that learning the skills to swim safely in the diving lane is valuable, but so are lap lanes, and both can co-exist well if people will only stop confusing the way they swim with what it means to be a swimmer, and most of all, stop confusing swimming safely with the presence or absence of lap lanes.
sbhikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 09:40 AM   #8
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
But you forgot to talk about the kiddie pool???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekhine
lol.
I assume this is analogous to the bicycle lane?
I assume that it analogous to the derisive terms of contempt that the Vehicular divers/cyclists use for those who don't wish to join them and on the high board/middle of the traffic lanes
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 09:54 AM   #9
Bekologist
totally louche
Thread Starter
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
boy, Diane, YOUR pool more accurately reflects the way pools are for swimmers nowadays!
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 09:57 AM   #10
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
boy, Diane, YOUR pool more accurately reflects the way pools are for swimmers nowadays!
But what about the pools as described in selected books?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:05 AM   #11
Alekhine
1. e4 Nf6
 
Alekhine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 7844`W, 4246`N
Bikes: Mercian KoM with Rohloff, Bike Friday NWT, Pogliaghi Italcorse (1979)
Posts: 872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I assume that it analogous to the derisive terms of contempt that the Vehicular divers/cyclists use for those who don't wish to join them and on the high board/middle of the traffic lanes
Who knows, but if it's about bike lanes, I'll gladly relax in the kiddie pool with my sombrero and umbrella drink.
Alekhine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:19 AM   #12
Helmet Head
Banned.
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Bikes:
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
The pool analogy of a bike lane is a false bottom so as to entice those who don't know how to swim to jump into the deep end anyway. After all, the goal is to get more people in the pool, is it not?
Helmet Head is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:24 AM   #13
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 420 Post(s)
Bike lanes are like kiddie floaties that get the little ones swimming in the deep end without them knowing what to do when a floatie pops.

Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:27 AM   #14
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Bike lanes are like kiddie floaties that get the little ones swimming in the deep end without them knowing what to do when a floatie pops.
Leave it to the LCI's and we-VCers to turn EVERY thread into either a rant about bike lanes, or a call for inflicting VC education/licensing on all the rubes.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:32 AM   #15
webist
Huachuca Rider
 
webist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Bikes: Fuji CCR1, Specialized Roubaix
Posts: 4,275
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Depending on when I am swimming, the lap lanes may be the fastest and safest way to get across the pool, particularly if my destination is one of the lounge chairs at the other end. Sometimes, especially during free-swim periods they are actually the best area of the pool to safely swim for time or pure exercise. There are times though when ducking under the lane markers and taking strokes throough and around the other pool users is really exhilirating. With reasonable care, diving can even be a fun and worthwhile activity, though the liability and risk is probably greater in posted no diving areas unless the pool is nearly unoccupied.
__________________
Just Peddlin' Around
webist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:34 AM   #16
Bekologist
totally louche
Thread Starter
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This pool is NOT a bike lane, HH. how the heck did bikes get in the pool?
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:36 AM   #17
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,105
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
how the heck did bikes get in the pool?
Scared into it when they saw a diver in a gorilla suit inadvertently drifting towards them as they were along side the pool?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:37 AM   #18
Bekologist
totally louche
Thread Starter
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
those damn gorilla suit recreationalists are ALWAYS trying to get into the picture, aren't they?

They're scheduled to be on the basketball court during the free swims.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:38 AM   #19
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 420 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Leave it to the LCI's and we-VCers to turn EVERY thread into either a rant about bike lanes, or a call for inflicting VC education/licensing on all the rubes.
Give me a break. This thread was rediculous from its start. Someone mentioned kiddie pools being like bike lanes, I just kept playin' along. But I actually do believe my analogy is pretty good - some water safety experts will raise the concern of using floatation assistance devices with kids who haven't yet learned to be good swimmers - with the concern of giving them and the adult supervisor too much confidence while relying on the floatie.

Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:42 AM   #20
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,970
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 890 Post(s)
Nice pool Diane.

But I want it chlorine free... And can you lower the temp a bit... lap swimmers like it a bit cooler so we can really pour it on without overheating.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:46 AM   #21
Bekologist
totally louche
Thread Starter
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
this was a segregated diving pool to begin with, then all you bikers started riding right on in. The lap pool is a seperate animal altogther.

this analogy is to illustrate that, regardless of how much specialized education is offered to allow diving from higher platforms, most all of the divers will still choose to dive from a much lower level. However, regardless of how far a diver drops, the mechanics of diving are IDENTICAL in motion.

A diver on the 10 meter platform needs to recognize that most of the pool users will be on the lower springboards. Always. Even if they have the ability to dive from a higher platform, which a diver does, because the mechanics are the same.

The lap pool, that's a whole 'nother bucket of trouble, with lane stripes and able swimming versus lane hogs and lane rage.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:51 AM   #22
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 420 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
this analogy is to illustrate that, regardless of how much specialized education is offered to allow diving from higher platforms, most all of the divers will still choose to dive from a much lower level.

And because of that, a diver on the 10 meter platform needs to recognize that most of the pool users will be on the lower springboards. Always.

The lap pool, that's a whole 'nother bucket of trouble, with lane stripes and able swimming versus lane hogs and lane rage.
Its flawed though as diving from the higher boards carries more risk and requires more skill. It is a natural progression to learn the skills on lower boards and move higher as skill develop. This doesn't carry to road positioning where the far right may not be as safe as further left and different skills are needed (i.e. learning to stop for right turners in time to prevent right hooks vs. learning to be aware of cars approaching from rear and adjusting lane position for safest traffic flow)

Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 10:56 AM   #23
Bekologist
totally louche
Thread Starter
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Posts: 18,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
diving from a 5 meter platform requires no more skill than diving from a 3 meter platform, Al. The risk is identical as well.

The only difference is the comfort level of the diver. The alpha dog ability of the diver, so to speak.
Bekologist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 11:00 AM   #24
chipcom 
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi
Posts: 24,366
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
This pool is NOT a bike lane, HH. how the heck did bikes get in the pool?
Via vehicular crashing of course!
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-05, 11:03 AM   #25
noisebeam
Al
 
noisebeam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Posts: 14,114
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 420 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
diving from a 5 meter platform requires no more skill than diving from a 3 meter platform, Al. The risk is identical as well.

The only difference is the comfort level of the diver. The alpha dog ability of the diver, so to speak.
Whatever. I've only had experience diving from 1m and 3m spring boards and jumping from 5m and 10m platforms. My basic point was that someone learning diving will start on lower boards and progress higher as one gains skill and that what one learns and is important for the 1m is retained as one moves higher.

What are you trying to argue about anyway? That cycling in predictable manner is a bad idea? That folks should stay on the sidewalk because its safer? That bike lanes make cycling safer for new cyclists?

What is the big problem you have with vehicular cycling? I really don't get it.

Al
noisebeam is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:39 AM.