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  1. #1
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Let's all start with a given: that everyone is likely to move out of the bike lane for things such as debris, potholes, road kill, grates, logging trucks, zombies, monsters and bogey men, etc. In this picture there are none of those things. The bike lane is clean and clear and there is no parking.

    Examine the photo. Please note the following:
    1. There is no parking on either side of the road.
    2. There are no intersections on the East bound side.
    3. There are many intersections on the West bound side.
    4. There is a double-yellow line motorists may not cross legally.
    5. East bound riders DO have the option of taking the freeway instead. You can't see the freeway here very well, but it is Highway 101 near Summerland, has a very wide shoulder that is full of debris, but is the actual designated bike route for this area.
    6. West bound riders do not have the option of taking the freeway.
    7. The road is fairly busy.
    8. I don't know the speed limit, but it's probably 35 or 45.

    Ok, the questions:
    A) For those folks who do NOT identify as VCers (whatever that means to you), you are traveling West bound. Where do you ride?
    B) For those folks who DO identify as VCers (whatever that means to you), you are traveling East bound. Where do you ride?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by sbhikes; 12-17-05 at 07:46 PM.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  2. #2
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    B) For those folks who DO identify as VCers (whatever that means to you), you are traveling East bound. Where do you ride?
    Are you asking where do I ride on the surface street (travel lane or shoulder/bike lane), or where do I ride as in which road (street pictured or freeway), or both?

    FYI, I have followed the eastbound route shown on the Adventure Cycling maps. Would that have put me on the freeway or the road in the picture?
    -- I speak for myself only, not LAB or any other organization of which I am a member.

  3. #3
    so whatcha' want? bigskymacadam's Avatar
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    puzzling indeed. i'll still ride in bike lane?

  4. #4
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
    Are you asking where do I ride on the surface street (travel lane or shoulder/bike lane), or where do I ride as in which road (street pictured or freeway), or both?

    FYI, I have followed the eastbound route shown on the Adventure Cycling maps. Would that have put me on the freeway or the road in the picture?
    It's up to you whether you take the lane, the bike lane or the freeway.

    I'm not sure where the Adventure Cycling map would have led you. Did you get on the freeway past the old Miramar hotel (had blue roofs but now is under construction) and get back on the surface streets in Summerland, or did you have to go up Ortega Hill road? if the latter, then you probably took this route, and you probably took it before they widened the road and put in the bike lane. It's very new.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    I'd ride outside the white line on the road pictured. Maybe someday they'll put in a bike lane there.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

  6. #6
    so whatcha' want? bigskymacadam's Avatar
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    okay. i think i'm (b) as described above. i'd ride on the right side of the white line.

  7. #7
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    Travelling east bound I would ride on the fogline, roughly.

    I don't understand the question about the freeway. Which road I would take --this one or the freeway-- would totally depend on where I was headed, wouldn't it? Or do this road and the freeway both go to my destination in the same travel time? If the latter, I would probably take this road because it looks pretty.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  8. #8
    Snakebite gritface's Avatar
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    You omitted the speed limit for this stretch of road, which would be key in my decision.

    I consider myself VC, with predictibility being the most important. If I have a good clean shoulder like this, then I'd take it. If I'd have to swerve back in the road up ahead, especially if it was a busy road, I would take the lane.

  9. #9
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    I'd probably ride just to the right of the white line in either direction, but might drift out into the lane going westbound when approaching intersections, depending upon the visibility of the intersections and gaps in traffic that might allow me to do so.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  10. #10
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    It's up to you whether you take the lane, the bike lane or the freeway.
    Eastbound, I'd probably be just a bit to the right of the white line on the street pictured. In this case, I don't see any advantage to taking the freeway when this route is just as convenient.


    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I'm not sure where the Adventure Cycling map would have led you. Did you get on the freeway past the old Miramar hotel (had blue roofs but now is under construction) and get back on the surface streets in Summerland, or did you have to go up Ortega Hill road? if the latter, then you probably took this route, and you probably took it before they widened the road and put in the bike lane. It's very new.
    Checking my maps, I went up Ortega Hill Road. I remember the road next to the freeway was pretty narrow, it was probably this one before the widening.
    -- I speak for myself only, not LAB or any other organization of which I am a member.

  11. #11
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Hard to see, but is that a bike lane stencil in the photo?
    -- I speak for myself only, not LAB or any other organization of which I am a member.

  12. #12
    Senior Member spandexwarrior's Avatar
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    Eastbound I'd take the bike lane, Westbound, I'd ride left of the fogline, and merge right when traffic came to overtake me. There is a route in Kentucky which I ride which is Nirvana as far as the scenery goes. The road runs right along the Ohio river. The speed limit is 50. There is a double yellow line. There basically about 12 inches of shoulder. The road winds and goes up and down hills. You can't see what is coming from the other side of the hills, with the way they dip. I don't take the lane when a driver is overtaking me in the windy and hilly parts because the driver can't see what is coming in the oncoming traffic lane. I never "take the lane" in double yellow line situations where I would put the driver at risk. Yet, I've seen cyclists do it there. I've actually felt sorry for the drivers, who have to make a mad dash past the cyclist, and avoid oncoming cars. VC is fine and all, but the only rule I go by is making my ride safe for ALL parties involved.
    Urban Cycling Vocabulary
    Foreplay The efforts of a cyclist to locate and trigger buried sensors under the pavement that will cause the traffic light at an intersection to turn green. Like the real thing, occasionally there is no result from this activity, despite most sincere efforts.
    High A lateral position on a street more toward the center line. I.E., If you look like you are leading a funeral procession of slow moving cars, you are probably positioned too "high."

  13. #13
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    In this picture, I'd definetly take that sweet spot of pavement to the right of the fog line, in both directions. I consider myself a VC rider. And one that hasn't forgotten a Vehicular Cyclist rides as far to the right as is safe and practicable to do so... I still reserve to ride the dance of the sugar plum fairies to maximize my safety and visibility though...

    An intersting perspective on 'sharing the lane' today. I found, with icy roads, highway speeds, 6 inches of shoulder lapsing into a crumbling fog line, and heavy amounts of dumptrucks with trailers, and logging trucks, I had no problem "sharing the road" by downshifting, taking to the dirt and waving the bastards by...a C.L.A.P.P.E.R. (center lane avoidance positioning preferred over everything real) positioning would have been idiotic.

    I did take the lane on some RIGHTOUS downhills without sufficent shoulder, and kept a couple trucks back for a little bit once or twice, but I was probably going 35-40,and certainly signalling my intent as well as the "do not pass" wave behind my back, with super flecco dayglo orange leather riding gloves, for (hopefully) visible hand signals.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 12-16-05 at 11:56 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  14. #14
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Now what is rather interesting is to compare and contrast the BL in the pic in the original post with this one. As I looked at that BL, and read some of the responses, I was struck by the fact that some posters refered to the white line as the fog line and others as the BL stripe. So there is some confusion in the markings of the road, further the far right edge of the OP post road is a soft edge... it is the edge of the road which may or may not vary depending on how well it was built and how much debris manages to encroach upon that edge,

    Now take note of the photo attached below. Notice that the BL is striped on both sides... there is an actual fog line in the BL... note also that all the BL is dashed. This is a Bike Lane in France.

    I just wanted to compare and contrast different BL with the idea that perhaps one BL offered a better definition of itself.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  15. #15
    Conservative Hippie
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    With just a bike I would probably ride, mostly, to the right of the fog line, eastbound. Westbound, it depends on the volume of traffic and how closely spaced the intersections are.

    Towing a trailer, it depends on how wide the paved shoulder is. If I felt uncomfortable with the width of the shoulder I would ride in the right tire track of the lane. Which is what I mostly do now.

  16. #16
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Wow, Gene, a picture of an overzealous VC-er ignoring perfectly good pavement to the right of a bike line even in France! Impressive. (not!)
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #17
    Conservative Hippie
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    Did I miss something? All I see is a cyclist who appears to have correctly taken the lane through an intersection and is now moving to the right, toward the BL.

  18. #18
    Infamous Member chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    Wow, Gene, a picture of an overzealous VC-er ignoring perfectly good pavement to the right of a bike line even in France! Impressive. (not!)

    You might want to take another look at that pic Bek.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  19. #19
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I doubt you missed anything. But Gene is misrepresenting BLs in France....that 'fog line' as he calls it, looks like it dissapears into the shoulder about where the forward group of bicyclists is... that pic was taken from a car, looks like, and I doubt Gene was biking along with these bicyclists...if you were, gene, my apologies..

    as to the bicyclist 'correctly taken the lane' and 'is moving into the BL' that's all pretty much speculation, isn't it? I just see a bicyclist on the outside of a perfectly good bike lane.
    Last edited by Bekologist; 12-17-05 at 08:45 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  20. #20
    Senior Member Dchiefransom's Avatar
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    The cyclist in the picture is right about where I'd return to a bike lane after getting past a right lane that turns off like the one in the picture. There's no way to tell if the "fog line" continues due to the angle it's being viewed from.
    Silver Eagle Pilot

  21. #21
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    whatever that supplemental stripe is right next to the edge, it ISN'T a 'fog line.
    fog lines are for drivers to follow in the fog, and demarcate the rightmost edge of the travel lanes with a solid line. Not broken lines to the right of a bike lane stripe.

    Besides, isn't this thread about Diane's pretty picture of American lanes and stripes?

    She's got a much better picture of an actual fog line anyways, and I bet she was biking when she took it, instead of an obsfucating picture sourced from a google search...
    Last edited by Bekologist; 12-17-05 at 09:10 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  22. #22
    Conservative Hippie
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    I see part of an intersection, but why the rider is positioned where he is, is speculation on my part. I suppose he could have dematerialized on approach to the intersection and rematerialized in his position in the picture.

    In fact if the photographer in Gene's picture was cycling when he took the picture, he would have correctly taken the lane to negotiate the intersection.

  23. #23
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    I could care less about Gene's picture, lets talk about Diane's some more, because Gene's picture is obscuring diane's post a bit much.

    I'll ride to the right of the fog line in Diane's picture, both directions, with the caveat I will dance like a butterfly when needed in and out of the travel lane. And I consider myself VC, a VC that hasn't forgotten bicyclists ride as far to the right as is practicable and safe to do so.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  24. #24
    Conservative Hippie
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    Agreed.

    Rather than repeat myself, in addition to what I said in Reply #15, if this were one of my regular routes, I would probably rarely use the freeway unless there were some specific advantage in doing so.

  25. #25
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by genec
    As I looked at that BL, and read some of the responses, I was struck by the fact that some posters refered to the white line as the fog line and others as the BL stripe. So there is some confusion in the markings of the road,
    In California, fog lines are 4" wide and bike lane stripes are 6" wide. That's hardly something that the average cyclist would know, let alone the general public. We can forgive those out of state for not knowing the difference.

    In my area there are some streets with a 6" wide stripe but with a green "bike route" sign instead of a white "bike lane" sign. Are they supposed to be bike lanes, but with the incorrect sign? Or are they supposed to be bike routes but with the incorrect stripe width?
    -- I speak for myself only, not LAB or any other organization of which I am a member.

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