Nazis, Jim Crow, Bike Lanes and the NYPD
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Nazis, Jim Crow, Bike Lanes and the NYPD
I'm sick of Nazi and Jim Crow analogies to US cops and bike lanes. I'm a skeptic about bike lanes and a strong proponent of riding in traffic. But as much as I dislike many "segregated" facilities, there is no comparison between facing a fine for riding outside of a glass-strewn, poorly engineered bike lane and being rounded up with millions of others, corralled into cattle cars, and then being gassed or burned alive.
There is also no comparison between being abused by a NYPD cop and being shot by the Gestapo. Do you think the Nazis let Jews sue the police in court? Do you think the Nazis let the Jews hire layers to gather videotaped evidence to defend against the citations?
You demean the seriousness of the Holocaust and the true evil of the Nazis by making such specious arguments. You also lose most or all of your credibility with reasonable people.
Setting aside the arguments about the depravity of the analogies, one flaw in the argument is that assertion that discrimination and segregation are always wrong. Sometimes (rarely, I think) it is appropriate to separate cyclists from automobile traffic. The American Interstate system is an example. The Jim Crow argument doesn't help bike lane skeptics explain why any given segregated system is bad.
So please, fight about the issues. Complain or support bike lanes. Complain about or support your local police. But leave the Nazis and Jim Crow out of it.
There is also no comparison between being abused by a NYPD cop and being shot by the Gestapo. Do you think the Nazis let Jews sue the police in court? Do you think the Nazis let the Jews hire layers to gather videotaped evidence to defend against the citations?
You demean the seriousness of the Holocaust and the true evil of the Nazis by making such specious arguments. You also lose most or all of your credibility with reasonable people.
Setting aside the arguments about the depravity of the analogies, one flaw in the argument is that assertion that discrimination and segregation are always wrong. Sometimes (rarely, I think) it is appropriate to separate cyclists from automobile traffic. The American Interstate system is an example. The Jim Crow argument doesn't help bike lane skeptics explain why any given segregated system is bad.
So please, fight about the issues. Complain or support bike lanes. Complain about or support your local police. But leave the Nazis and Jim Crow out of it.
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What about lima beans? Am I allowed to reference lima beans in order to make my point without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lima beans?
To someone who doesn't care for lima beans, rating one better than another still doesn't make the "better" ones acceptable. Same thing with bike lanes. To a lima bean disliker, all lima beans taste yucky. All bike lanes, on "shared" roads, convey the message, even the A+ ones, that cyclists should stay out of the way of cagers. Being a "good" lima bean doesn't make it taste good. Being a "good" bike lane doesn't make it not convey the anti-cycling message.
The reason Jim Crow laws and Nazis are used in these analogies, rather than lima beans, is because the former are more universally recognized as negative concepts.
No offense to lima beans - they just seem to be disliked by more people than most other foods; I could have used liver or brussel sprouts just as easily - the point just wouldn't be made with ice cream.
To someone who doesn't care for lima beans, rating one better than another still doesn't make the "better" ones acceptable. Same thing with bike lanes. To a lima bean disliker, all lima beans taste yucky. All bike lanes, on "shared" roads, convey the message, even the A+ ones, that cyclists should stay out of the way of cagers. Being a "good" lima bean doesn't make it taste good. Being a "good" bike lane doesn't make it not convey the anti-cycling message.
The reason Jim Crow laws and Nazis are used in these analogies, rather than lima beans, is because the former are more universally recognized as negative concepts.
No offense to lima beans - they just seem to be disliked by more people than most other foods; I could have used liver or brussel sprouts just as easily - the point just wouldn't be made with ice cream.
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Sorry, but lima beans didn't kill anyone's grandfather, burn people in ovens, or lynch people, so that analogy is about as stupid as they come. To compare a vegetable (lentil, I suppose) that people have a "dislike" for to something as horrible as racist law or a soldier that took part in a genocide is obscene. There are other words that convey the same idealology as "Nazi" without the connection to the holocaust. A good generic substitute would be "facist" as it merely is someone of a facist idealology.
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Lima beans, liver, and brussel sprouts may be disliked, but they are not evil. Many bike lanes are examples of bad policy and bad engineering, but they are notevil.
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This looks like it should go very well.
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To compare a vegetable (lentil, I suppose) that people have a "dislike" for to something as horrible as racist law or a soldier that took part in a genocide is obscene.
Yes, such a comparison would be obscene. If you think I made such a comparison, I suggest you don't take any IQ tests...
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Originally Posted by Daily Commute
Lima beans, liver, and brussel sprouts may be disliked, but they are not evil. Many bike lanes are examples of bad policy and bad engineering, but they are notevil.
But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.
So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Yes, bike lanes are not evil in the way that Nazis were evil.
But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.
So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?
But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.
So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?
#9
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When I first saw the title of this thread I thought it was a troll set up for that professor who's been studying us.
But I don't care for nazi and jimcrow analogies either. They are emotional hot buttons overstate the case and distract from the real issue, whatever it is.
I did score well over the 50th percentile in a IQ quiz I seen on the internet so I ain't no illiterate.
But I don't care for nazi and jimcrow analogies either. They are emotional hot buttons overstate the case and distract from the real issue, whatever it is.
I did score well over the 50th percentile in a IQ quiz I seen on the internet so I ain't no illiterate.
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Originally Posted by genec
About all you can really state is: "some folks don't like bike lanes, just like some folks don't like lima beans... " The reasoning for either thought is simply in the mind of the beholder.
The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".
That point holds whether we're talking about lima beans, death camps, piles of dog poop, or just about anything that can be classified in one group, including bike lanes.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you agree that at least to someone who doesn't care for lima beans (spits 'em out!), there is no such thing as a "good" lima bean, even though some may be better (according to size, freshness, cleanliness, firmness, etc.) than others?
The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".
That point holds whether we're talking about lima beans, death camps, piles of dog poop, or just about anything that can be classified in one group, including bike lanes.
The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".
That point holds whether we're talking about lima beans, death camps, piles of dog poop, or just about anything that can be classified in one group, including bike lanes.
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My attempts to defend the actual case without using any analogies have been ignored.
My attempts to use the analogies have been derailed into discussions about the inappropriateness of the analogies, forcing me to have to defend them.
I'd much rather spend my time discussing the actual case, back in the original "bike lanes are B+" thread.
My attempts to use the analogies have been derailed into discussions about the inappropriateness of the analogies, forcing me to have to defend them.
I'd much rather spend my time discussing the actual case, back in the original "bike lanes are B+" thread.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you agree that at least to someone who doesn't care for lima beans (spits 'em out!), there is no such thing as a "good" lima bean, even though some may be better (according to size, freshness, cleanliness, firmness, etc.) than others?
The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".
The point I'm trying to make is that just because some members of a class might be seen as "better" than other members of the same class, that doesn't mean any of them are necessarily "good".
The same holds true of bike lanes, while some individuals may find them quite distasteful, their utility may be one that is good for other individuals.
You have your right to believe that you do not like bike lanes, but you do not have the right to impose your beliefs on others. Just as your diet may never include lima beans, others may find them quite tasty.
I for instance happen to like both broccoli and brussels sprouts... Our 41st president did not like broccoli... did that give him the right to ban all broccoli?
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Not to spoil the succotash or vegetable medley.....
But the term 'Nazi' has morphed over time to become a generic term of derision used toward anyone whom exhibits undue control over others, i.e. 'the soup Nazi' on Seinfeld.
The term 'Jim Crow' seems less bandied about.
I am not saying this is a good thing, only that the barn door has been open for some time.
But the term 'Nazi' has morphed over time to become a generic term of derision used toward anyone whom exhibits undue control over others, i.e. 'the soup Nazi' on Seinfeld.
The term 'Jim Crow' seems less bandied about.
I am not saying this is a good thing, only that the barn door has been open for some time.
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Originally Posted by Treespeed
This looks like it should go very well.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Yes, bike lanes are not evil in the way that Nazis were evil.
But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.
So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?
But bike lanes are not vegetables, or lentils, either.
So can I make the statement I made about bike lanes and lima beans without being accused of comparing bike lanes to lentils, or not?
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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I was a vegetable too for a while. I think it was back in the late 60s.....
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I'm just glad that everyone is home from vacation and back at their desks, being productive. It was dull here for a while.
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Sufferin' succatash!
Not to rub your rhubarb, but I happen to like lima beans.
And here in Houston, there are no bike lanes. There's only cars doublepark free lanes, when they're not being broken glass, dead animal, and garbage collection lanes.
Now the cops are pretty cool to cyclists here, yet there's never been a CM here as far as I can remember. Go figure that.
Not to rub your rhubarb, but I happen to like lima beans.
And here in Houston, there are no bike lanes. There's only cars doublepark free lanes, when they're not being broken glass, dead animal, and garbage collection lanes.
Now the cops are pretty cool to cyclists here, yet there's never been a CM here as far as I can remember. Go figure that.
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For the record . . . I'm no fan of Seinfeld, and the Soup Nazi was not the only bit that I found disrespectful . . .
Meanwhile: Next time you think about making a Nazi analogy, imagine you're sitting next to a death camp survivor.
And then ask yourself: would I still say that?
Meanwhile: Next time you think about making a Nazi analogy, imagine you're sitting next to a death camp survivor.
And then ask yourself: would I still say that?
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Originally Posted by galen_52657
But the term 'Nazi' has morphed over time to become a generic term of derision used toward anyone whom exhibits undue control over others, i.e. 'the soup Nazi' on Seinfeld.
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This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
This is Africa, 1943. War spits out its violence overhead and the sandy graveyard swallows it up. Her name is King Nine, B-25, medium bomber, Twelfth Air Force. On a hot, still morning she took off from Tunisia to bomb the southern tip of Italy. An errant piece of flak tore a hole in a wing tank and, like a wounded bird, this is where she landed, not to return on this day, or any other day.
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Setting aside the depravity of most Nazi analogies, do you think citing the Nazis will persuade anyone to agree with you? It seems much, much more likely to alienate your audience.
HH, I think your passionate opposition to bike lanes helps keep this forum interesting an useful. But you really, really hurt the cause when you let your rhetoric get too hot. Why not just argue that segregating cyclists from other traffic on any road is bad policy because it decreases our legitimacy on the road? (And then back it up with other arguments.)
My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.
HH, I think your passionate opposition to bike lanes helps keep this forum interesting an useful. But you really, really hurt the cause when you let your rhetoric get too hot. Why not just argue that segregating cyclists from other traffic on any road is bad policy because it decreases our legitimacy on the road? (And then back it up with other arguments.)
My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.
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Originally Posted by Daily Commute
Setting aside the depravity of most Nazi analogies, do you think citing the Nazis will persuade anyone to agree with you? It seems much, much more likely to alienate your audience.
HH, I think your passionate opposition to bike lanes helps keep this forum interesting an useful. But you really, really hurt the cause when you let your rhetoric get too hot. Why not just argue that segregating cyclists from other traffic on any road is bad policy because it decreases our legitimacy on the road? (And then back it up with other arguments.)
My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.
HH, I think your passionate opposition to bike lanes helps keep this forum interesting an useful. But you really, really hurt the cause when you let your rhetoric get too hot. Why not just argue that segregating cyclists from other traffic on any road is bad policy because it decreases our legitimacy on the road? (And then back it up with other arguments.)
My phrasing may not be the most eloquent statement, and some people will disagree with it, but it won't immediately alienate the very people you want to persuade.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
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[simpsons]Think of the children! Won't someone please think of the children!"[/simpsons]
Yeah I discredit an argument to some degree internally when lazy and disparate analogys are used willy-nilly. Fortunately I'm all growed up and won't allow reading such things to lessen my regard for the lessons of history.
People say insensitive things all the time, deal with it because setting restrictions on such things anyplace but your house is the sort of slippery slope the unfortunates fell victim to.
This is a public forum.
Yeah I discredit an argument to some degree internally when lazy and disparate analogys are used willy-nilly. Fortunately I'm all growed up and won't allow reading such things to lessen my regard for the lessons of history.
People say insensitive things all the time, deal with it because setting restrictions on such things anyplace but your house is the sort of slippery slope the unfortunates fell victim to.
This is a public forum.
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Originally Posted by chipcom
It amazes me how some people get all indignant at one disparaging word, then in the next breath use another disparaging word that is somehow more acceptable. Make up your minds to either refrain from all such words or just shut the F up about the words others choose to use. Bunch o freakin hypocrites.
I hope I have never described a pro-bike-lane or anti-VC argument as "depraved." Other than Nazi/Jim Crow analogies, the only time I remember using such strong language is when people have advocated raping drivers who injure cyclists. If someone shows that I'm wrong my prior posts, I'll offer an apology.
Originally Posted by SamHouston
[simpsons]Think of the children! Won't someone please think of the children!"[/simpsons]
Yeah I discredit an argument to some degree internally when lazy and disparate analogys are used willy-nilly. Fortunately I'm all growed up and won't allow reading such things to lessen my regard for the lessons of history.
People say insensitive things all the time, deal with it because setting restrictions on such things anyplace but your house is the sort of slippery slope the unfortunates fell victim to.
This is a public forum.
Yeah I discredit an argument to some degree internally when lazy and disparate analogys are used willy-nilly. Fortunately I'm all growed up and won't allow reading such things to lessen my regard for the lessons of history.
People say insensitive things all the time, deal with it because setting restrictions on such things anyplace but your house is the sort of slippery slope the unfortunates fell victim to.
This is a public forum.
Last edited by Daily Commute; 01-04-06 at 07:41 AM.