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  1. #1
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Take the opposite view

    The purpose of this thread is to exercise our ability to see the other side, and hopefully learn something in the process.

    The approach of this thread is to take the opposite view as we discuss advocacy and safety issues.

    If you're a bike lane supporter, here you oppose them.
    If you're a bike lane opposer, here you argue for them.
    If you generally oppose segregated facilities, here you present their virtues.
    If you're a VC advocate, here you ridicule VC advocacy.
    If you're a helmet supporter, here you oppose them.
    If you normally support the virtues of sidewalk cycling, here you oppose them.
    Etc.

    Have fun!

  2. #2
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    I don't understand the opposition to bike lanes. They're just like any other lane, except they're narrower. Some of the poorly designed ones are problematic at intersections, but that's a problem in design, not in something inherent with bike lanes. Bike lanes are great. They give cyclists our own space to ride in peace, separated from all those noisy, smelly, heavy and annoying cars. Can someone explain to me what I'm missing?

  3. #3
    genec genec's Avatar
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    Why should you be forced into your "own small space," the roads are ideal for riding and sharing with motor vehicles... plus have you ever noticed that BL don't go everywhere you want to go... what do you do when the BL don't exist?

    Bike lane stripes also are slipperly when wet or damp, thereby actually adding to a hazard that might not otherwise be on the road.

    Then there is a more subtle issue... the fact that cyclists really have legal rights to the entire roadway... but motorists feel that they should stay in the BL... that makes it more difficult for a cyclist to negotiate leaving a bike lane to make a left turn or to avoid hazards.

  4. #4
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    I WANT my own small space, just like sometimes I want to be wrapped in Saran wrap and, well, I won't go into that... So the roads might be ideal for you, but they're not ideal for me.

    And so what if they don't go everywhere where I want them to go? If they're there for part of my trip, it's that much better.

    As far as the paint/slip hazard goes, I'll give you that one, but the advantages of bike lanes overwhelm that relatively small disadvantage. Who bikes in the rain anyway?

    I negotiate out of bike lanes all the time, with very little problems. That's really not a significant issue.

  5. #5
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I hate those damn bikes. They run me off the trail when I'm skating. And They buzz too close to me when I'm trying to pass them in my SUV. Don't they have tracks or some place they can ride those ugly things?


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  6. #6
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    caveman biker want carbon fiber bike with expensomium gruppo. caveman biker likes riding in traffic on highway speed roads instead of in a big wide shoulder. Caveman biker will never take the bike lane if a perfectly good traffic lane is available.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  7. #7
    Gatoraid powered engine 2wheeledsoul's Avatar
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    Helmets blow. Here's why:
    They give me "Helmet Hair".
    They make me look like Helmet Head.
    I want the wind in my hair, dammit!
    They get in the way of my headphones and my cellphone.
    They're gay. All my friends say so.
    They're hot.
    They're heavy.
    They really don't do anything important, like saving me some brain damage. Or my life.

  8. #8
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I'm sorry I can't argue against bike lanes because I see nothing wrong with them.

    Besides, both me and Bek have tried to set up a situation (reference our VC puzzlers) where the opposite side has to advocate for what they normally stand against, and none of the VC advocates ever took the bait. So I'm not taking your bait.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I don't understand the opposition to bike lanes. They're just like any other lane, except they're narrower. Some of the poorly designed ones are problematic at intersections, but that's a problem in design, not in something inherent with bike lanes. Bike lanes are great. They give cyclists our own space to ride in peace, separated from all those noisy, smelly, heavy and annoying cars. Can someone explain to me what I'm missing?
    Hmmmm... Your debating skills are lacking and so is your knowledge of the opposite view. Perhaps this is why you keep recycling your arguments. You don't understand the opposition, so how can anyone expect you to come up with original arguments on your own? If you just keep pounding away at what you know, perhaps calling the same concept several different names and making lots of acronyms, everyone get frustrated, then bored (in that order), and they eventually quit. Then you are King of the Hill! Congratulations!!

    Too bad. I expected better.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  10. #10
    commuter all star peregrine's Avatar
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    I don't think talking on my cell phone while riding/driving is such a big problem. While it does engage some of my attention, it's not much different than listening to music or looking around in search for a place I've never been to.
    For the ones that it does create problems it's because they're easily distracted anyway. A person has to learn to pay attention to many things while riding/driving and not be so easily distracted...

    ....
    ... wow... I really suck at this... I can't even convince myself...

  11. #11
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    (FOR ANYONE WHO READS THIS FROM AN INTERNET SEARCH, IT'S NOT MY REAL OPINION, JUST THE OPPOSITE.)

    I hate bicycling in general. Whether it's those nutty bicycling advocates screaming for bike lanes stealing space from legitimate traffic or foolish bicyclists that think they have the same right to use the roads as I do, it's all the same to me. Bicyclists are getting a free ride and endangering those of us who pay for the roads. They should basically get off the road and out of my way. The best place for a bicycle is on the sidewalk, or a remote path.

    Adults have no business riding bicycles anyway, bikes are kid's toys. What does a gray-headed person think they're doing riding a bike, getting younger? They should grow up and join the real world instead of pretending they still have the energy to pedal around all day. They should be doing something more constructive and mature than spending long hours riding off into the countryside. What nonsense! All they need to do is hop in a car and be there in no time at all!

    If I had my way, bikes would be banned not only from freeways, but all other roads except 25 mph. residential streets. The only adults who have any business riding bicycles are people who can't afford a car, and they should stay on the sidewalk.
    No worries

  12. #12
    Senior Member rvabiker's Avatar
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    Worst thread ever. After skimming the posts its obvious none of you defend the opposite veiw with the vigor that you defend your own (how could you be expected to?). You guys who frequent this area of BF do love to argue.

  13. #13
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    Bike lanes cause cars to stay closer the the center line. When all the cars are gridlocked, the bicycle lane allows cyclists to travel without being blocked by cars. In areas where lane splitting is not legal, bike lanes increase the capacity of the roadway by adding another independant travel lane. It is cheaper than widening the lane. Like the HOV lane, the bike lane adds capacity and bypasses traffic jams. This benefits both motorists and cyclists. Bike lanes also remind motorists that bikes exist. Finally, by giving motorists a chance to compare the slow, congested conditions in the car lanes to the free, unobstructed condition of the bikes passing them, they provide advocacy. They demonstrate that bikes are often faster and more convenient than cars,

    Paul

  14. #14
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvabiker
    After skimming the posts its obvious none of you defend the opposite veiw with the vigor that you defend your own (how could you be expected to?).
    Exactly.

    (What is your point of view, if you have one?)
    No worries

  15. #15
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    I confess, I used my opportunity to underscore what I already believe through sarcasm rather than truly take an opposing view. I'll try again:

    Cyclists might be better off away from motor traffic, since they are slower and more vulnerable. Also, slower traffic holds up the traffic flow for everyone else, which makes our already crowded streets more jammed. Even on the freeway, a small accident blocking one lane can jam it up for miles, causing long delays. Who wants to sit in traffic when you can be on your way home to your family?
    No worries

  16. #16
    Gatoraid powered engine 2wheeledsoul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rvabiker
    Worst thread ever. After skimming the posts its obvious none of you defend the opposite veiw with the vigor that you defend your own (how could you be expected to?). You guys who frequent this area of BF do love to argue.
    Point. At least I gave it a try.
    Looks like the other guy's shoes don't fit so well.

  17. #17
    Senior Member
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    I just hate people..

  18. #18
    Senior Member Paul L.'s Avatar
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    I love getting honked at by ignorant motorists it really makes me feel like I am sticking it to them. If you love the bike lane so much why don't you ride in it dude? Ok, lets see let me try a serious go.

    Umm, bike lanes are a good effort that too often fall short of what they should be. They fill up with crap and create a safety hazard when bicycles have to move out of them into traffic and back.
    Drivers think that bikes should only travel in bike lanes. Just like owners of 4 wheel drives acknowledge that roads are the only places cars and trucks can drive.
    (Oh crap, I strayed into an opposing viewpoint in a sarcastic way. Shoot, OK, aw nuts, so much for the resolution not to feed the fire anymore. Sorry folks!)
    Sunrise saturday,
    I was biking the backroads,
    lost in the moment.

  19. #19
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul L.
    I love getting honked at by ignorant motorists it really makes me feel like I am sticking it to them. If you love the bike lane so much why don't you ride in it dude? Ok, lets see let me try a serious go.

    Umm, bike lanes are a good effort that too often fall short of what they should be. They fill up with crap and create a safety hazard when bicycles have to move out of them into traffic and back.
    Drivers think that bikes should only travel in bike lanes. Just like owners of 4 wheel drives acknowledge that roads are the only places cars and trucks can drive.
    (Oh crap, I strayed into an opposing viewpoint in a sarcastic way. Shoot, OK, aw nuts, so much for the resolution not to feed the fire anymore. Sorry folks!)
    Why was I singled out and asked to remove my post for not being within the spirit of the topic when there are so many people who either were nasty about it, or like the above poster, tried and failed?

    I merely was honest that I can't possibly argue for the other side, just as when I tried to get the other side to argue for mine they didn't/couldn't do it either.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  20. #20
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Why was I singled out and asked to remove my post for not being within the spirit of the topic...
    I missed that. Did some jack donkey send you a PM and lecture you on sticking to his definition of "spirit of the topic"? Let me guess who. Am I right?

  21. #21
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    caveman biker want carbon fiber bike with expensomium gruppo. caveman biker likes riding in traffic on highway speed roads instead of in a big wide shoulder. Caveman biker will never take the bike lane if a perfectly good traffic lane is available.
    + B.O.T. post !

    -ADVOCACY-☜ Radical VC = Car people on bikes. Just say "NO"

  22. #22
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    I missed that. Did some jack donkey send you a PM and lecture you on sticking to his definition of "spirit of the topic"? Let me guess who. Am I right?
    Well, his name wasn't Jack, exactly. And I wasn't the only one PM'd.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  23. #23
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HH
    If you're a VC advocate, here you ridicule VC advocacy.
    I have no problem with VC. My problem is with the anti-bike lane point of view and "dynamic lane positioning with center lane bias" concept--the idea that you should ride down the center of the lane until traffic comes up behind you, then merge right. Otherwise I have no problem with VC.

    Unless of course VC is the anti-bike lane POV plus DLPWCLB. Then all I can say is I advocate for lawful cycling. I'm not going to ridicule lawful cycling. What good would that do?
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  24. #24
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I have no problem with VC. My problem is with the anti-bike lane point of view and "dynamic lane positioning with center lane bias" concept--the idea that you should ride down the center of the lane until traffic comes up behind you, then merge right.

    +1 I'm with SB and her spot-on-the-money criticism of Helmet Heads' dynamic center of the lane avoidance techniques, , or as I've come to know and love it, "C.L.A.P.P.E.R."
    HH's C.L.A.P.P.E.R. is in the crapper in my book of riding technique.

    Why HH didn't have any input on lane positioning in any of the later VC puzzlers makes it clear to me that some roadways just don't 'fit' the dogmatic riding style known here in bike forums as "VC- D.L.L.P.-C.L.A.P.P.E.R." technique.

    HH's disengenious ploys are unceasing in bike forums, HH has a big psychological chip on his shoulder about C.L.A.P.P.E.R. bicycling techniques. His post below shows he thinks he 'entrapped' Sbikes and myself in endorsing viewpoints not our own with this thread exercise in irony.

    Here's my example of irony...

    caveman biker likes riding in traffic on highway speed roads instead of in a big wide shoulder. Caveman biker will never take the bike lane if a perfectly good traffic lane is available.
    ****This post represent my actual feelings, and not the opposite of what I meant. I believe Sbikes above is also being honestly critical of HH's 'techniques' and not using irony to mean the opposite of what she posted. ****
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-14-06 at 08:13 AM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  25. #25
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    This thread is a success. Each post is better than the previous at demonstrating how easy it is for someone to effectively and convincingly take the view opposite of what he truly believes.

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