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View Poll Results: The current VC discussions and multitude of postings in AandS BFN have:

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  • The current VC discussions and multitude of postings have advanced the cause of VC in the Bicycling Community

    14 28.57%
  • The current VC discussions and multitude of postings have made no difference in the cause of VC in the Bicycling Community

    18 36.73%
  • The current VC discussions and multitude of postings have hurt the cause of VC in the Bicycling Community

    14 28.57%
  • No opinion/don't know

    3 6.12%
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  1. #1
    Around now and then DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Furthering or Hindering the cause of VC?

    Do you believe that the continuous (some might say incessant) discussion and advocacy for VC (or whatever current PC word might be appropriate) on this forum has advanced the cause of VC in the overall Bicycling Community?
    DnvrFox - still bicycling, swimming, walking and weight lifting at 74yo is participating a bit in BFN 50+.

  2. #2
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox
    Do you believe that the continuous (some might say incessant) discussion and advocacy for VC (or whatever current PC word might be appropriate) on this forum has advanced the cause of VC in the overall Bicycling Community?
    The incessant proselytization by a few individuals obsessed with interpreting/reinterpreting VC™ dogma has made Vehicular Cycling appear to be the ideology of zealots.

    The overall Bicycling Community will be severely hampered if the general public ever associates Bicycling Advocacy with the loonier VC legal conjuring and wacky VC cycling techniques based on the power of alpha dog attitudes.
    Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 01-14-06 at 10:21 AM.

  3. #3
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    I don't know if they've hurt or helped the cause of VC. I feel there has been a valuable clarification made recently of what the term VC actually represents when you use it here. And now that I know what it means, I can use the term better.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  4. #4
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    The incessant proselytization by a few individuals obsessed with interpreting/reinterpreting VC™ dogma has made Vehicular Cycling appear to be the ideology of zealots.

    The overall Bicycling Community will be severely hampered if the general public ever associates Bicycling Advocacy with the loonier VC legal conjuring and wacky VC cycling techniques based on the power of alpha dog attitudes.
    The implied acceptability of VC in ILTB's rhetoric is new, and this alone indicates enormous advancement of the cause of VC.

  5. #5
    ♋ ☮♂ ☭ ☯ -=(8)=-'s Avatar
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    No difference.
    Has this stuff changed anyones opinion on this subject, ever ?

  6. #6
    Around now and then DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    The implied acceptability of VC in ILTB's rhetoric is new, and this alone indicates enormous advancement of the cause of VC.
    Grasping at straws?
    DnvrFox - still bicycling, swimming, walking and weight lifting at 74yo is participating a bit in BFN 50+.

  7. #7
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
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    I don't like the direction I see the discussions going, but I know that past discussions of VC helped me to become a better rider. I guess that means the discussions helped the community, to a small extent at least.

    By it's original definition, VC was really the only sane and safe way to ride a bike in traffic. Newer definitions are conflictual, controversial and needlessly confusing.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  8. #8
    Senior Member randya's Avatar
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    The same discussion just keeps moving from thread to thread with the same limited number of participants. We get the idea, already!

  9. #9
    Warning:Mild Peril Treespeed's Avatar
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    I still don't understand why everyone gets so bent about discussions on the internet about VC. It's not as if someone is riding with you, looking over your shoulder and telling you how to ride. If you don't like the discussion, change the channel. Serge puts VC into the title of the majority of his posts, and yet despite ILTB and the rest of the VC haters protests you'll find them replying to almost everyone of his posts. You'd think HH actually had the power to destroy bike lanes or enact legislation the way you folks complain about VC. It's sounds like one guy's interpretation of VC, besides Bek, Diane, Gene, and a few other names that escape me at the moment I don't see anyone else offering anything other than criticism. All this BS about censoring or moving the VC discussion is pathetic. No one is forcing anyone to discuss VC or keeping folks like dnvrfox from starting new threads. I for one have enjoyed the VC discussion, I don't always agree with everyone, but what would be the point of that?
    Non semper erit aestas.

  10. #10
    coitus non circum. Mars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treespeed
    I still don't understand why everyone gets so bent about discussions on the internet about VC. It's not as if someone is riding with you, looking over your shoulder and telling you how to ride. If you don't like the discussion, change the channel. Serge puts VC into the title of the majority of his posts, and yet despite ILTB and the rest of the VC haters protests you'll find them replying to almost everyone of his posts. You'd think HH actually had the power to destroy bike lanes or enact legislation the way you folks complain about VC. It's sounds like one guy's interpretation of VC, besides Bek, Diane, Gene, and a few other names that escape me at the moment I don't see anyone else offering anything other than criticism. All this BS about censoring or moving the VC discussion is pathetic. No one is forcing anyone to discuss VC or keeping folks like dnvrfox from starting new threads. I for one have enjoyed the VC discussion, I don't always agree with everyone, but what would be the point of that?

    +10
    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

  11. #11
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    The implied acceptability of VC in ILTB's rhetoric is new, and this alone indicates enormous advancement of the cause of VC.
    Dream on!

  12. #12
    Cycle Year Round CB HI's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
    Dream on!
    Yet you ride by so many of the VC principles, even while demonizing the use of the collective term.

  13. #13
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB HI
    Yet you ride by so many of the VC principles, even while demonizing the use of the collective term.
    Which goes back to the point I have made ever since I joined BF and got involved in these discussions - riding safely, predictably, according to the applicable rules or laws of the road, has been practiced since long before the term VC was coined. They are not VC principles, VC is a brand that attempts to take ownership of those principles as a basis for promoting additional wacky techniques, dogma and advocacy representing a minority of cyclists. The term itself is tame and nobody would have a problem with it, if it had not been used as the rallying cry of advocates who want to promote their own minority viewpoints, many times in opposition to the wishes of the majority of the cycling community.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  14. #14
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Which goes back to the point I have made ever since I joined BF and got involved in these discussions - riding safely, predictably, according to the applicable rules or laws of the road, has been practiced since long before the term VC was coined. They are not VC principles, VC is a brand that attempts to take ownership of those principles as a basis for promoting additional wacky techniques, dogma and advocacy representing a minority of cyclists. The term itself is tame and nobody would have a problem with it, if it had not been used as the rallying cry of advocates who want to promote their own minority viewpoints, many times in opposition to the wishes of the majority of the cycling community.
    Chipcom beat me to the punch. Cycling sensibly and adapting to the local environment with intelligence, is independent of accepting the extra baggage of the "VC ™educational" agenda and pseudo science/nutcase legal theorizing of the VC™ ideologues and their gullible/logicly disadvantaged acolytes.

  15. #15
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treespeed
    You'd think HH actually had the power to destroy bike lanes or enact legislation the way you folks complain about VC.
    Actually, a friend of mine told me he sits on some major state (California) committee on cycling. I mentioned his name to him and he immediately knew who he was and started going on and on about how much his efforts have done to hurt bike advocacy at the state level.
    ~Diane
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    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  16. #16
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    Actually, a friend of mine told me he sits on some major state (California) committee on cycling. I mentioned his name to him and he immediately knew who he was and started going on and on about how much his efforts have done to hurt bike advocacy at the state level.
    Well, if that isn't depressing news....what an dipshizzle. Helmet Head doesn't even ride his bike very much, less than half the days. I've done the math.

    So, a guy that admittedly does not ride for transportation the majority of the time, and

    does not know how to position his bike on roads with bicycle accomodations,

    is on a state committee on bicycling, and another CA bicyclist has stated to you HH has hurt bicycling advocacy at the state level?

    Helmet Head is a real gem. sometimes blowhard know-it-alls should be disqualified from seeking public positions.... I read something like that in Thomas More's 'Utopia'...people seeking public office would be prohibited from doing so....
    Last edited by Bekologist; 01-14-06 at 09:26 PM.
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  17. #17
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekologist
    sometimes blowhard know-it-alls should be disqualified from seeking public positions.... I read something like that in Utopia once...people seeking public office would be prohibited from doing so....
    I'm your proof to support that statement!
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  18. #18
    ---- buzzman's Avatar
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    The current VC discussions and multitude of postings have hurt the cause of VC in the Bicycling Community
    I would rephrase that to: The current VC discussions and multitude of postings have hurt the Bicycling Community.

  19. #19
    Around now and then DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzman
    I would rephrase that to: The current VC discussions and multitude of postings have hurt the Bicycling Community.
    Okay - do your own poll!
    DnvrFox - still bicycling, swimming, walking and weight lifting at 74yo is participating a bit in BFN 50+.

  20. #20
    totally louche Bekologist's Avatar
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    Chip, don't be so hard on yourself- let the other posters do that for you
    "Evidence, anecdote and methodology all support planning for roadway bike traffic."

  21. #21
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    Which goes back to the point I have made ever since I joined BF and got involved in these discussions - riding safely, predictably, according to the applicable rules or laws of the road, has been practiced since long before the term VC was coined.
    True, but there was an effort in California in the early 70s to provide bikeways and only allow cycling on them, prohibiting cycling on "normal" roads. As a result, it would seem that a name such as "VC" would have needed to have been created, in order to contrast with mandatory cycling on facilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    The term itself is tame and nobody would have a problem with it, if it had not been used as the rallying cry of advocates who want to promote their own minority viewpoints, many times in opposition to the wishes of the majority of the cycling community.
    I know that Chip wants to advocate for all cyclists, and I agree with him on that. But it would be naive to think that we can "all just get along" in every instance.

    As an example, in my area, there are the "casual" cyclists and the "road" cyclists. (There are other groups, but these are the two main categories.) Whenever a new housing development is proposed in my area, the neighborhood activists complain that there's not enough trails in the proposed development. I don't object to trails, but in one case the activists (representing the "casual" cyclists) wanted to eliminate the shoulders on an existing road in order to make room to install a two way sidepath. The "road" cyclists would rather retain the shoulders than a have a two way sidepath. For a number of reasons I support retaining the shoulders. Since there are more "casual" cyclists than "road" cyclists, in this case I would be advocating what could be considered a minority viewpoint. Do you see anything wrong with this?
    -- I speak for myself only, not LAB or any other organization of which I am a member.

  22. #22
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
    There was an effort in California in the early 70s to provide bikeways and only allow cycling on them, prohibiting cycling on "normal" roads.
    Can you provide some reference for this "effort" to permit cycling ONLY on bikeways in California and nowhere else, and how serious this "effort" was? My impression is that this "effort" is a conjured strawman argument originating in the fevered rhetoric of John Forester. If I am wrong, I will be glad to be enlightened.

  23. #23
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
    As an example, in my area, there are the "casual" cyclists and the "road" cyclists. (There are other groups, but these are the two main categories.) Whenever a new housing development is proposed in my area, the neighborhood activists complain that there's not enough trails in the proposed development. I don't object to trails, but in one case the activists (representing the "casual" cyclists) wanted to eliminate the shoulders on an existing road in order to make room to install a two way sidepath. The "road" cyclists would rather retain the shoulders than a have a two way sidepath. For a number of reasons I support retaining the shoulders. Since there are more "casual" cyclists than "road" cyclists, in this case I would be advocating what could be considered a minority viewpoint. Do you see anything wrong with this?
    If I were on the governing body, I'd tell you all to get your ducks in line amongst yourselves and report back with your recommendations, otherwise I'd have to opt for the wishes of the majority and/or the developers, within the existing planning/zoning regulations for subdivisions.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  24. #24
    Senior Member LCI_Brian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    If I were on the governing body, I'd tell you all to get your ducks in line amongst yourselves and report back with your recommendations, otherwise I'd have to opt for the wishes of the majority and/or the developers, within the existing planning/zoning regulations for subdivisions.
    This course of action is reasonable for a governing body. But as a cyclist what would you do?
    -- I speak for myself only, not LAB or any other organization of which I am a member.

  25. #25
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCI_Brian
    This course of action is reasonable for a governing body. But as a cyclist what would you do?
    I'd do the same thing. I'd say, folks, we need to get together and come up with a unified recommendation that represents area cyclists as a whole and not fight this out in public. Doing that would require compromise...and if I were part of the minority, which I probably would be in this case, I'd realize that compromise was our only acceptable course of action, because in the end the majority is going to get what they want unless we want to be disruptive and present a public split in the cycling community. Doing so might get us what we want today, but it will hinder our efforts in the future where we might need that majority, whom we just got done screwing.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

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