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Old 01-15-06, 10:26 PM   #1
Brian
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Enough!

Please, no more threads debating the usefulness of debating VC. No more polls discussing if we need threads debating the usefulness of debating VC. No more posts discussing if we need polls debating the usefulness of threads debating the usefulness of VC.

Try to read some of these threads from the view of an outsider. Someone posts, and by the 2nd page, it's the VC debate. Over and over again.

VC proponents, please show a bit of restraint in your postings. Many people tend to tune out a long-winded or heavy handed delivery.

Everyone else, can we please minimize the debate, and stick to the topic of whatever thread you're posting in?


Thank you.
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Old 01-15-06, 10:45 PM   #2
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I'm sick of seeing thead *****ing about other threads..
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Old 01-15-06, 11:49 PM   #3
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" I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

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Old 01-16-06, 12:23 AM   #4
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He's mad as hell in multible time zones.
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Old 01-16-06, 12:30 AM   #5
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He's mad as hell in multible time zones.



Ah you youngsters! That was a line and a scene from the movie "Network" (1976)
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Old 01-16-06, 12:36 AM   #6
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I'm sick of seeing thead *****ing about other threads..
Too bad
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Old 01-16-06, 01:00 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by MERTON
why all the clocks?
He needs them to help triangulate his correct Lane Position.

I'm sick of repeated debates, but then again -- if this stuff didn't keep popping up, how would noobs get up to speed on these? Yeah, they should read the stickies and they should learn to use search. But they don't usually do those things, do they?

I dunno, if you don't want to read a thread, don't read it. If you don't want to participate in 'endless' debates, don't post. Piece of cake.
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Old 01-16-06, 01:43 AM   #8
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Yeah, I'm all about it.
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Old 01-16-06, 03:06 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by MERTON
why all the clocks?
He's in a newsroom.

I'm pretty sure that's Peter Finch and he won an oscar for that role.
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Old 01-16-06, 03:57 AM   #10
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I've managed to avoid just about all threads debating vc and have usually managed to avoid the entire Advocacy and Safety forum altogether! It's pretty easy to do!
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Old 01-16-06, 10:43 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by pinerider
I've managed to avoid just about all threads debating vc and have usually managed to avoid the entire Advocacy and Safety forum altogether! It's pretty easy to do!
Is there a filter option to the Forums? If not, that would be nice !

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Old 01-16-06, 10:48 AM   #12
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This is why I bowed out of the BL/VC debates last Friday. Bike lanes
I saw this coming.
But it will pass and we will have fun again. Its important to keep active discussion on method of cycling safely in traffic - everyone should ignore the labels and focus on the methods, skills, experiences, etc.

Al
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Old 01-16-06, 10:55 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by pinerider
I've managed to avoid just about all threads debating vc and have usually managed to avoid the entire Advocacy and Safety forum altogether! It's pretty easy to do!
Yeah, when I first got here I became mildly interested in VC because it presented some compeling ideas on how to ride. It was pretty easy to figure out the important parts though, and now all of the threads are just so much yak, yak, yak. It's beyond me some times how people can get so emotional over internet arguments.

A&S is pretty much just VC talk with a few "look at this horrible accident" threads thrown in.
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Old 01-16-06, 11:08 AM   #14
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I move in and out of A&S. Sometimes, I'll leave it alone for days or even a month at a time. Of course, the debates wouldn't be "debates" if there weren't some hard core people who attack VC for the sake of attacking VC. And if people didn't post ideas about why they thought bike lanes were helpful, it would be harder to write criticisms of an idea no one espoused.

The debates often get mired down into personal attacks, not substantive arguments. In my admittedly biased view, the personal attacks usually (but not always) come from people who oppose VC. I used to point those out and (sometimes) respond in kind. I've tried to stop that. Putting the worst offender on my Ignore List made that easier.

That's another option. If a few forum members annoy you for whatever reason, put them on your Ignore List. If what they're saying as no persuasive value (like the posts of the person on my list), then you don't have to worry about other people believing their posts. But if what they're saying has persuasive value, respond to it with something more persuasive.

I think some of the most helpful posts are the examples of specific pieces of roadway with questions about how cyclists should traverse them or what kind of facilities (if any) are appropriate. That keeps the bike lane skeptics from talking about 25 mph roads and bike lane proponents from talkiing about cycling on freeways.

Last edited by Daily Commute; 01-16-06 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 01-16-06, 11:24 AM   #15
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Each side of the debate should also work better to police itself. If you see someone you generally agree with cross the line into personal attacks or stupidly inflamed rhetoric, tell them either with a PM or a post.

When my criticisms of one anti-VC'er's personal attacks also got too personal, others pointed that out to me. I've done the same for other people on my side of the debate. In one extreme case, I even started a thread about why I thought analogizing segregated cycling facilities to Nazi policies was deeply offensive. Finally, don't give "atta-boys" to posts that contain a strong personal attack but no substance.

Sorry about the double post, the forum is having database problems and I couldn't tack this on to the end of my last post.
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Old 01-16-06, 01:57 PM   #16
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Before I started visiting Bikeforums.net, I was familiar with the concept of VC. But I had no idea that people would get so worked up over a topic that seems – to me anyway – rather mundane. I still can’t grasp why this stirs so much passion. Any theories?
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Old 01-16-06, 03:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FastFreddy
Before I started visiting Bikeforums.net, I was familiar with the concept of VC. But I had no idea that people would get so worked up over a topic that seems – to me anyway – rather mundane. I still can’t grasp why this stirs so much passion. Any theories?
For the same reasons that the roadies get all riled up any time Shimano vs. Campy or Triple vs. Double or Steel vs. other material comes up. People in general will think that what they are doing/using is the best. They'll generally disagree with someone who states otherwise. Thus, the start of many debates. A lot of BS results from these disagreements but every once in a while something useful is stated. I usually read through the whole debate anyway even if I just read the same thing last week.

And please no one take offense to this. I'm just as guilty as any of the people I just described in terms of fueling the fire. Debating about bike is about 5% as fun as biking. And that's saying a lot. I'd rate driving somewhere in the .01% range.
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Old 01-16-06, 04:47 PM   #18
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Another reason that it riles people is that it's important. Bike lanes, depending on your perspective, can greatly increase or decrease the fun and safety or riding. For example, I can get through my downtown pretty quickly now. But if cops expected me to stay in bike lanes, it would both slow me down and put me in a more dangerous part of the road. Yeah, that gets me riled up.
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Old 01-16-06, 08:18 PM   #19
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Expat.
Maybe we can quit debating VC on the A&S forum after you get everyone on the BMX forum to spell correctly, the SS&FG forum to stop bashing Pistas, and the Road forum to go a whole day without talking about poseurs. Good luck with all that and then get back to us.
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Old 01-16-06, 08:25 PM   #20
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Expat.
Maybe we can quit debating VC on the A&S forum after you get everyone on the BMX forum to spell correctly, the SS&FG forum to stop bashing Pistas, and the Road forum to go a whole day without talking about poseurs. Good luck with all that and then get back to us.
Hmmm. Maybe I can get Osama Bin Laden to turn himself in too.
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Old 01-16-06, 08:43 PM   #21
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Yada, yada, warden!
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Old 01-16-06, 10:49 PM   #22
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Congratulations Expat, you have started the first thread about threads about polls about threads about VC!
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Old 01-16-06, 11:16 PM   #23
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Actually, reading the threads about VC here has made me a better cyclist and kept me safer on streets. i.e. I now completely avoid right-hooks by taking the lane at the light. I also avoid bike lanes which are painted in an unsafe manner. Etc.

VC is very relevant to Advocacy & Safety. If you don't like the topics, then don't read them. Maybe the "General Cycling Discussion" forum might be more to your liking.
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Old 01-17-06, 04:26 AM   #24
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Actually, reading the threads about VC here has made me a better cyclist and kept me safer on streets. .
Not me. The SUV that hit me left tire marks on the left seat stay, bending it and launching me into the field next to the road. If I was riding 6 inches to the left, I'd be in the passenger seat instead of the nice soft field of poison ivy. I'll stay to the right, thanks.



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Old 01-17-06, 04:33 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by mac
Actually, reading the threads about VC here has made me a better cyclist and kept me safer on streets. i.e. I now completely avoid right-hooks by taking the lane at the light. I also avoid bike lanes which are painted in an unsafe manner. Etc.

VC is very relevant to Advocacy & Safety. If you don't like the topics, then don't read them. Maybe the "General Cycling Discussion" forum might be more to your liking.
If VC works for you, that's good. I just don't think every A&S thread needs to turn into a debate about it.
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