Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-19-06, 06:51 AM   #1
Bikewer
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Slow bike traffic on pedestrian path?

I'm with the campus police at Washington University here in St. Louis. We have a slight problem arising over a bike/pedestrian path.
The local Metrolink expansion has built a bike/pedestrian "ramp" from the main footpath up into the residential area North of the university. Lots of kids commute via this route to campus each day. The ramp is a crossover for the busy Forest Park Parkway.
Here's the problem: The ramp is a fairly steep little pitch, and the kids on bikes are motivated to just stand on the pedals and shoot up same as fast as possible, since almost none of them bother to shift gears. This results in high-speed encounters between the bicyclists and pedestrians. A number of students have complained of near-collisions, getting "buzzed", etc.
We have installed signs at the ends of the structure encouraging riders to dismount and walk up the hill; you can imagine how much compliance we're getting.

Any suggestions here? The ramp/path is too narrow for a dedicated bike lane, and we don't want to install any sort of structure that would be dangerous to riders.
Bikewer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 07:17 AM   #2
velonomad 
Older I get, Better I was
 
velonomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Greenfield Lake, Wilmington NC
Bikes: '14 BD Lurch Fatbike, '10 custom road,'06 custom expedition, '94 Yokota Tandem, '88 custom MTB
Posts: 1,675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
sounds like you need to build a chicane at each end of the bridge to force the riders to dramacticaly slow or dismount to get around the obstruction.
velonomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 07:33 AM   #3
NoRacer
Isaias
 
NoRacer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
Posts: 5,178
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Grade the area similar to what they do before a road resurfacing. The rough surface may help slow them down.
NoRacer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 07:37 AM   #4
Guest
Guest
 
Bikes:
Posts: n/a
Mentioned: Post(s)
Tagged: Thread(s)
Quoted: Post(s)
Do you have pedestrain signs asking them to stay to the right? Do you have signs that tell bikes to call out "on your left" and/or ring a bell when announcing that they're behind the pedestrian? Not like I'm being accusing, but you have to have some kind of plan and rules set in place before you do this. Then campus police should be roaming and ready to issue tickets on both sides- to pedestrians walking on the wrong side or not staying to the right, as well to bikes that don't warn before passing.

It just sounds like you need a plan, then enforcement.

Koffee
  Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 10:41 AM   #5
jakub.ner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: London, Ontario
Bikes: 2 Xootr Swifts, Dahon Curve, Oxford Winter Beater.
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Rules/laws don't work as well with students as physical obstructions that hinder the behaviour: I think the chicane idea is best (I imagine two rails across the path) forcing a dismount, with no allowance to go on the sides. It has to be well lit and full of reflective crap.
jakub.ner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 11:14 AM   #6
FLBandit
Senior Member
 
FLBandit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Bikes:
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think the obstruction idea is best. Unless you have security there 24/7 there will always be problems.
FLBandit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 11:15 AM   #7
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A pole right in the center of the path at both ends might encourage student cyclists to slow down. Just put plenty of reflective tape on it.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 11:15 AM   #8
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 23,523
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakub.ner
Rules/laws don't work as well with students as physical obstructions that hinder the behaviour: I think the chicane idea is best (I imagine two rails across the path) forcing a dismount, with no allowance to go on the sides. It has to be well lit and full of reflective crap.
What does a chicane look like? I would think an organization is asking for legal trouble if it installs some sort of obstacle on the path that could deliberatly cause a less than razor sharp cyclist to get knocked off the bike.

Lights are good; reflective crap would in all liklihood be just that ; how many student bikes have lights at all, let alone lights that would detect an unexpected reflectorized obstacle in the path?
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 11:20 AM   #9
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.
Posts: 10,060
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
What does a chicane look like? I would think an organization is asking for legal trouble if it installs some sort of obstacle on the path that could deliberatly cause a less than razor sharp cyclist to get knocked off the bike.

Lights are good; reflective crap would in all liklihood be just that ; how many student bikes have lights at all, let alone lights that would detect an unexpected reflectorized obstacle in the path?
We actually get this all the time on trails. The only problem is that when the reflective tape wears off, or god forbid, they don't put any on, those posts blend into the road and are tough to see from a bike. If there is a big sign forbiding cycling on that section of trail, I would suspect that that would cover the legal liability.

Lighting is an issue, but many times on a campus, the trails are lit anyway for safety reasons (to ward off assaults on the female population).
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 12:32 PM   #10
ItsJustMe
Señior Member
 
ItsJustMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Michigan
Bikes: Windsor Fens, Giant Seek 0 (2014, Alfine 8 + discs)
Posts: 12,977
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Yup, install chicanes. Just a few concrete cylinders at the ends, offset will make them slow down. As Brian says, paint them a bright color and put reflective tape on them.
You don't need to be razor sharp, you just need to slow down. Chicanes are frequently used to slow motor traffic in other countries, and sometimes in the US.
ItsJustMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 12:46 PM   #11
JRA
Senior Member
 
JRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St. Louis
Bikes:
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I knew there would be problems when I saw that thing being built. I couldn't imagine what the plan was for keeping bicycles off that bridge. Then I realised that maybe it was designed that way precisely for bicycles. Bad idea - no cookie for whoever designed that. The slope is too steep and it's too long.

Anything that forces bicyclists to slow down at the bottom of the bridge should solve the problem of them going up the bridge too fast. Unfortunately, a problem of a few cyclists riding down too fast might remain (but maybe not). I doubt that anything put at the top of that bridge is going to make much difference.

Chicanes at the bottom would work but my idea to stop cyclists riding up too fast is more ambitious - landscaping on the walkway just north of the bridge. I envision rerouting the walk around the landscaping. The purpose would be to make it impossible to ride straight down the walk and straight up the bridge without having to slow almost to a stop.

The landscaping might be a garden with the walk going around it. In lieu of rebuilding the walkway, big planting pots strategically placed on the walkway might accomplish about the same thing.
JRA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 02:22 PM   #12
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,633
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRA
I knew there would be problems when I saw that thing being built. I couldn't imagine what the plan was for keeping bicycles off that bridge. Then I realised that maybe it was designed that way precisely for bicycles. Bad idea - no cookie for whoever designed that. The slope is too steep and it's too long.

Anything that forces bicyclists to slow down at the bottom of the bridge should solve the problem of them going up the bridge too fast. Unfortunately, a problem of a few cyclists riding down too fast might remain (but maybe not). I doubt that anything put at the top of that bridge is going to make much difference.

Chicanes at the bottom would work but my idea to stop cyclists riding up too fast is more ambitious - landscaping on the walkway just north of the bridge. I envision rerouting the walk around the landscaping. The purpose would be to make it impossible to ride straight down the walk and straight up the bridge without having to slow almost to a stop.

The landscaping might be a garden with the walk going around it. In lieu of rebuilding the walkway, big planting pots strategically placed on the walkway might accomplish about the same thing.

The landscaping idea is quite similar to "traffic calming" used on local roadways... just narrowing and varying the roadway... and in the local case, also adding round-a-bouts. But the basic idea is traffic calming.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 02:33 PM   #13
Jalopy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
Bikes:
Posts: 146
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree that typical traffic calming devices work as well on pathways as they do on roads.

There is a fairly steep timber overpass on a trail here in Toronto that goes over a rail line. Timber "speed bumps" (slightly rounded strips of wood) are placed every five feet or so along the entire structure. I'm not sure if they were intended to slow bicycles but they do.

Simple and easy.

Jalopy
Jalopy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 07:41 PM   #14
JRA
Senior Member
 
JRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St. Louis
Bikes:
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
The landscaping idea is quite similar to "traffic calming" used on local roadways... just narrowing and varying the roadway... and in the local case, also adding round-a-bouts. But the basic idea is traffic calming.
Yea, what I'm suggesting is traffic calming. The situation seems a perfect application and it would probably be more effective than rules and enforcement. One possible problem: the university may not actually own the walkway so it might be difficult to get major changes accomplished.

I like the round-about idea - the idea of a pedestrian roundabout sounds funny but it would probably work in this case.

What we're talking about is probably a walkway. Bicycles may be tolerated (probably are) but I think pedestrian rules apply. So nobody should be riding at bicycle speeds - but the way the walkway goes downhill and straight into that ramp, I can see how a college kid might be tempted.

Go Pikers!
Go Hilltoppers!

Go Bears!

Grrr!

Last edited by JRA; 01-19-06 at 07:50 PM.
JRA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 07:44 PM   #15
JRA
Senior Member
 
JRA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: St. Louis
Bikes:
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jalopy
I agree that typical traffic calming devices work as well on pathways as they do on roads.

There is a fairly steep timber overpass on a trail here in Toronto that goes over a rail line. Timber "speed bumps" (slightly rounded strips of wood) are placed every five feet or so along the entire structure. I'm not sure if they were intended to slow bicycles but they do.

Simple and easy.

Jalopy
I like the idea of speed bumps on the bridge itself. Maybe there's something that could be attached to the surface of the bridge that would create a bumpy ride, slow the bicycles down while at the same time not trip any pedestrians.
JRA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 07:51 PM   #16
Bikepacker67
Banned
 
Bikepacker67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ogopogo's shoreline
Bikes: LHT, Kona Smoke
Posts: 4,086
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Deploy a Speed Sniper team at a position overlooking the bridge.
Anyone who peds over 10mph in that posted section gets cut down by a 7.62mm
Bikepacker67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 09:38 PM   #17
velonomad 
Older I get, Better I was
 
velonomad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Greenfield Lake, Wilmington NC
Bikes: '14 BD Lurch Fatbike, '10 custom road,'06 custom expedition, '94 Yokota Tandem, '88 custom MTB
Posts: 1,675
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
I was think of something like this, like the round-about mentioned, put plants in the middle with a couple of large rocks or other obstructions to keep riders and pedestrians from cutting across the round-about.

velonomad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 09:50 PM   #18
Michel Gagnon
Year-round cyclist
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Montréal (Québec)
Bikes:
Posts: 3,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't see why you should ask cyclists to dismount. Unless you ask car drivers to push their cars in the parking lot because their might be pedestrians in the vicinity (i.e. people who get out of their cars to go to classes). So there are only two options :

1. It's a decent place for bicyclists, or (which comes to the same), it is necessary for bicyclists to ride there because the alternative is too long, too difficult, too unfriendly, etc.
Then do as they do in the French Highway Code and limit speed to 5 km/h (3 mph). The French say "Rouler au pas" which is the speed allowed for sidewalk bicyclists and litterally means "cycle at the speed of a pedestrian". Then as long as a cyclists rolls at 3 mi/h, he/she isn't a threat to pedestrians.

2. There are real alternatives
Then make it a No Bicycle zone, at least during busy hours.


I know that posts and chicanes are liked by many bike path "designers", but I think they have no more place on a bike path as they have on a street. As for speed bumps, that might work, but it would be very problematic, maybe even dangerous, for wheelchair users.
Michel Gagnon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-06, 10:00 PM   #19
roccobike
Bike Junkie
 
roccobike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South of Raleigh, North of New Hill, East of Harris Lake, NC
Bikes: Specialized Tarmac, Speialized Roubaix, Giant OCR-C, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR, Stumpjumper Comp, 88 & 92Nishiki Ariel, 01 Bianchi Campione, 87 Centurion Ironman, 92 Paramount
Posts: 9,444
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by velonomad
I was think of something like this, like the round-about mentioned, put plants in the middle with a couple of large rocks or other obstructions to keep riders and pedestrians from cutting across the round-about.

I don't know if that will work with bicycles, but I saw that plan work very effectively addressing speeding automobiles in a development.
__________________
Roccobike BF Official Thread Terminator
roccobike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-06, 03:26 AM   #20
Daily Commute
Ride the Road
 
Daily Commute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Bikes: Surly Cross-Check; hard tail MTB
Posts: 4,059
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
First, the designer of the ramp should be castigated at every opportunity for creating a hazard.

The speed bumps sound like a good idea. They would slow people down without creating hazards that the polls would.

There is something offensive about "walk-your-bike" signs on MUP's. It kind of eliminates that "multi-" portion of "MUP," doesn't it? Expect the signs to be ignored unless you are willing to write tickets.

Koffee's right about enforcement. If you are going to enforce rules for cyclists, you should also enforce them for pedestrians. One rule could be that pedestrians must walk single file for that stretch. That would help minimize conflicts.

As to citations, your town might not have the laws to issue them. In Columbus, I think the MUP's are nearly lawless because traffic rules apply only to roads and paths reselved exclusively for cyclists, of which there are none. The Parks director claims he can issue citations, but he won't say under which code section. He also says no citation has ever been issued.

Last edited by Daily Commute; 01-20-06 at 04:42 PM.
Daily Commute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-06, 06:47 AM   #21
Bikewer
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Bikes:
Posts: 1,441
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the input, guys. I'll turn all this over to our safety officer. As typical with such things, I imagine the design was finalized and put in the contract without any input whatever from anyone involved with safety. (Including the police department!)
Bikewer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:27 PM.