Bike lane follies
#26
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Bekologist
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Bek, the "bad" qualifier in front of "bike lanes" is redundant from the perspective of the VC paradigm which is based on the assumption that you reject, which is: bikes belong on the road, with cyclists having the same rights and obligations as any other driver of a vehicle, including adhering to the principle that, between intersections, slower traffic should keep to the right of faster traffic, but only when safe, reasonable and practicable to do so...
You can only have a "good" bike lane from the perspective of the PnP paradigm, which is based on the assumption which many of your posts make it appear that you believe, namely that while bikes belong on the road, they should get and stay out of the way of motorists as much as possible, preferably in their own space, usually off to the right... Bike lanes facilitate exactly that, so they make sense from that paradigm.
You can only have a "good" bike lane from the perspective of the PnP paradigm, which is based on the assumption which many of your posts make it appear that you believe, namely that while bikes belong on the road, they should get and stay out of the way of motorists as much as possible, preferably in their own space, usually off to the right... Bike lanes facilitate exactly that, so they make sense from that paradigm.
Those are NOT my beliefs about well designed, multimodal accomodations, integrated with the existing roadways.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-09-06 at 07:00 PM.
#27
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
I'll repeat myself:
Bike lanes make sense from the VC paradigm. It is only you (and your disciples) who confuses VC with riding down the center of the lane and only pulling to the right when necessary rather than the reverse of that (staying to the right and moving left when necessary.) Center lane biasing is not VC. That is your own spin on VC.
VC is the part about having the same rights, obligations and responsibilities as any other driver of a vehicle. Just because we disagree on how far to the right is practicable and safe at any moment in time does not mean that what we do is not adhering to vehicular cycling practices.
Bike lanes make sense from the VC paradigm. It is only you (and your disciples) who confuses VC with riding down the center of the lane and only pulling to the right when necessary rather than the reverse of that (staying to the right and moving left when necessary.) Center lane biasing is not VC. That is your own spin on VC.
VC is the part about having the same rights, obligations and responsibilities as any other driver of a vehicle. Just because we disagree on how far to the right is practicable and safe at any moment in time does not mean that what we do is not adhering to vehicular cycling practices.
Last edited by Helmet Head; 03-09-06 at 07:00 PM.
#28
Avatar out of order.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Posts: 895
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
If Mark disagrees I'll retract this and my similar previous post and we can all go at it here.
Al
Al
Underwear in the BL, "Share the Road" next to road kill, ... etc.
For instance, I can think of some pictures that I wished I had been able to include. The first was lost due to my flaky digital camera. It was an enormous pile of trash bags right alongside a dedicated bike path. I could smell it before I ever got to it. Another is that of a street cleaner running down the center lane of a dedicated bike path (didn't have the presence of mind to snap a shot -- but it happens every Friday).
Heh heh. There was a picture that lacked resolution that I didn't post. I was biking along olympic highway when I noticed all the pebbles in the roadbed. I stopped to unload my jacket and then, looking down, noticed that they weren't pebbles. There were dozens, maybe hundreds of snails in the gutter and path stretching for blocks. I guess they were applying the principle: "Slower traffic stay right".
Edit: I've added the snails image. You will need to blow it up 200% on your screen to see what I'm talking about. All those little white things in the gutters -- they're not pebbles -- they're snails.
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
Last edited by MarkS; 03-09-06 at 08:59 PM.
#29
Dominatrikes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Posts: 4,920
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Look at this doozy. It's awful. I can't imagine why anybody would use such a terrible death trap.
By the way, they put this in in 1976 for some big deal bike route way back then.
By the way, they put this in in 1976 for some big deal bike route way back then.
#30
Avatar out of order.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Posts: 895
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Look at this doozy. It's awful. I can't imagine why anybody would use such a terrible death trap.
By the way, they put this in in 1976 for some big deal bike route way back then.
By the way, they put this in in 1976 for some big deal bike route way back then.
It looks great from here. Clean. Wide. Of course, they all look great when there's no cars on them
![Big Grin](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Is that a one-way street? (can't see if the cars on the left are facing us). I don't see any striping on the left hand side ... in which case ... what happened? We'll keep you safe going to work but not coming back?
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
#31
Dominatrikes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Posts: 4,920
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Yes it's a one-way street. There's a mirror-image street one block over.
Sorry for the lack of emoticon. You see, HH was finally so persuasive that I've seen the light. I found Jesus. I realize the error of my ways. You won't find me in that death trap. Nope, I'll be hugging the center of the left lane on that street like a real vehicle.
Sorry for the lack of emoticon. You see, HH was finally so persuasive that I've seen the light. I found Jesus. I realize the error of my ways. You won't find me in that death trap. Nope, I'll be hugging the center of the left lane on that street like a real vehicle.
![Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif)
![Stick Out Tongue](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Wink](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/wink.gif)
#32
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Diane, if you wanted to design that street specifically to increase the likelihood of a motorist right hooking a cyclist, you wouldn't have to change a thing.
#33
mizu no kokoro
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Frankfurt/Germany
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is a bike lane in a German town. Looks very nice at first sight. Speed limit on the road is 30 km/h (equals ca. 20 mph I guess). It's going downhill, so can easily achieve speeds higher than the actual speed limit.
![](https://home.arcor.de/mispace/images/1_web.jpg)
How fast would you drive?
But if you dare to use this bikelane, you are lured into a dangerous trap, because you can't see whats around the corner because of the vegetation. The same is true for the oncoming motorists from the right.
At the intersection the lane sweeps to the right onto the sidewalk right into oncoming traffic:
![](https://home.arcor.de/mispace/images/b3_web.jpg)
90% of the motorist don't stop in front of the lane but stop at the line of sight next to the road, so you can imagine what happens.
![](https://home.arcor.de/mispace/images/1_web.jpg)
How fast would you drive?
But if you dare to use this bikelane, you are lured into a dangerous trap, because you can't see whats around the corner because of the vegetation. The same is true for the oncoming motorists from the right.
At the intersection the lane sweeps to the right onto the sidewalk right into oncoming traffic:
![](https://home.arcor.de/mispace/images/b3_web.jpg)
90% of the motorist don't stop in front of the lane but stop at the line of sight next to the road, so you can imagine what happens.
#34
Avatar out of order.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Posts: 895
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by yama
How fast would you drive?
Yipes! A motor path going across a bike path, and no signage? Where's all that much-vaunted German engineering prowess when you need it? Basically, its a sidewalk, no matter what they call it.
Thanks for the pictures!
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
#35
Banned.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020
Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I like all the wrought-iron fencing along the bike 'path' and around the trees. That would be fun to fall and whack yourself on....
![Frown](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/frown.gif)
![Mad](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/mad.gif)
![EEK!](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/eek.gif)
![cry](https://www.bikeforums.net/images/smilies/cry.gif)
#36
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Diane, if you wanted to design that street specifically to increase the likelihood of a motorist right hooking a cyclist, you wouldn't have to change a thing.
#37
Dominatrikes
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Still in Santa Barbara
Posts: 4,920
Bikes: Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Diane, if you wanted to design that street specifically to increase the likelihood of a motorist right hooking a cyclist, you wouldn't have to change a thing.
Why is it that you see a piece of asphalt as wide as any traffic lane and just because it says "bike lane" on it you suddenly paint it with the brush of anti-bike lane terror? Anybody riding in that bike lane will be where you would place them if the right hand lane were a regular lane, and yet just becasue of the paint you scream "right hook right hook!"
Follies is the perfect name for this thread.
#38
Avatar out of order.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Posts: 895
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Follies is the perfect name for this thread.
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
#39
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
Naw, Dianes' bike lane scares the heck out of me. Are those pine needles off in the distance?
#40
Arizona Dessert
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 15,030
Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix, Lemond Poprad. Retired: Jamis Sputnik, Centurion LeMans Fixed, Diamond Back ascent ex
Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5345 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times
in
1,288 Posts
Here is a temporary follie due to construction. They should put up a sign well in advance to let cyclist know to merge left and to let motorist know cyclist will be doing so. It caught me off guard and I didn't have time to move into main travel lane earlier enough. In the video you can see me my shadow and me signaling left and looking over my shoulder twice. The sun was right behind me and I couldn't see very well (not at all in mirror). I need to make a left turn shortly after so I moved into center of lane and stayed there after the truck passed.
Video (420kb, right click, save target as..., open from local drive)
Now of course one could argue I should ride over it, but when approaching at speed one can often not tell how bad it is until too late. The real danger is the tire swallowing crack to the left of the plate.
ps-keep this on track and your childish behavior elsewhere.
Al
Video (420kb, right click, save target as..., open from local drive)
Now of course one could argue I should ride over it, but when approaching at speed one can often not tell how bad it is until too late. The real danger is the tire swallowing crack to the left of the plate.
ps-keep this on track and your childish behavior elsewhere.
Al
#41
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Why is it that you see a piece of asphalt as wide as any traffic lane and just because it says "bike lane" on it you suddenly paint it with the brush of anti-bike lane terror?
Anybody riding in that bike lane will be where you would place them if the right hand lane were a regular lane, and yet just becasue of the paint you scream "right hook right hook!"
As has been noted, right hooks can happen even to cyclists riding vehicularly in a centerish position of the rightmost right-or-straight lane (some motorists, instead of slowing down and getting behind you, will still pass you in the left lane, and then cut right in front of you, often misjudging your speed).
However, my point was that if you wanted to increase the likelihood of right hooks on such a street, you would designate the section where cyclists should ride to be a bike lane, thus discouraging motorists from driving there behind the cyclists even more, and encouraging the right hook behavior. In the first case, turning left from a lane to the left of a straight-or-right lane is blatantly wrong, and most motorists know this (not that it stops all of them). But turning left from a lane to the left of a bike lane is not as blatantly wrong (in fact, is the law in some states, like OR and AZ), so even more motorists are likely to do it.
That's why I said if you wanted to design that street to increase the likelihood of right hooks, you would leave it as is. Disagree if you want, but at least understand that the basis (in this case) of my argument is not the effect on the bike lane on cyclist lane positioning, but the effect of the bike lane on the behavior of right-turning motorists.
#42
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by noisebeam
Here is a temporary follie due to construction. They should put up a sign well in advance to let cyclist know to merge left and to let motorist know cyclist will be doing so. It caught me off guard and I didn't have time to move into main travel lane earlier enough. In the video you can see me my shadow and me signaling left and looking over my shoulder twice. The sun was right behind me and I couldn't see very well (not at all in mirror). I need to make a left turn shortly after so I moved into center of lane and stayed there after the truck passed.
Video (420kb, right click, save target as..., open from local drive)
Now of course one could argue I should ride over it, but when approaching at speed one can often not tell how bad it is until too late. The real danger is the tire swallowing crack to the left of the plate.
ps-keep this on track and your childish behavior elsewhere.
Al
Video (420kb, right click, save target as..., open from local drive)
Now of course one could argue I should ride over it, but when approaching at speed one can often not tell how bad it is until too late. The real danger is the tire swallowing crack to the left of the plate.
ps-keep this on track and your childish behavior elsewhere.
Al
#43
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,533 Times
in
1,044 Posts
Originally Posted by MarkS
Diane, this was a thread showing real life bike lanes and oddities related to them. Its rude of you to barge in and change the topic. HH was willing to take the BL debate somewhere else, so why don't you do the same?
![](https://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2056/rudequeen2rv.th.jpg)
Why don't you take your rude-ee whining about bike lanes to the same bike lane thread Wonderland with HH and wallow in the oddities with him?
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 03-10-06 at 11:21 AM.
#44
Avatar out of order.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: North of the border, just
Posts: 895
Bikes: Fuji Absolut '04 / Fuji 'Marlboro' Folder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
OoH-ooh! Another Rude-ee whining like a little girl about someone else's post not meeting his own interpretation of un rude-ee netiquette. Diane posted a a picture of a bike lane just like the OP with her comments, what's so dand rude-ee about that? Other than that she isn't all odd about the sight of a bike lane?
You would know more about whining like a little girl then I would, since you do such an incredible amount of it. It gets so tiring, that you are the only one in the forum that I've ever put on my ignore list. Just removed you yesterday. That was a mistake.
I never complained about Diane's photo. That was fine, though not especially interesting. I was referring to her unnecessary insult in post #37 -- with no photo.
One of the things that makes HH more convincing is that he is civil, and attempts to use logic and reason. I'm not 100% convinced that BLs should be removed, but I'm more moved that way by his discussion then ad hominem attacks and labeling.
__________________
Cars kill 45,000 Americans every year.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
This is like losing a war every year, except without the parades.
#45
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,533 Times
in
1,044 Posts
Originally Posted by MarkS
One of the things that makes HH more convincing is that he is civil, and attempts to use logic and reason. I'm not 100% convinced that BLs should be removed, but I'm more moved that way by his discussion then ad hominem attacks and labeling.
#47
Banned.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
If you are moved and convinced by HH's "logic and reason" that is YOUR problem.
Either something is logic, or it isn't. There is no "Mark's logic" or "HH's logic" or "ILTB's logic".
Yes, we sometimes refer to "X's logic" meaning "the logic presented by X", but if it is logic and reason, then why wouldn't you be moved by it? And if it's not logic and reason, then why refer to it as if it is?
Why does it matter who presents it? So many of you are resistant to being "moved and convinced" by logic and reason simply because of who is presenting.
Consider the field of politics, and George Bush and Bill Clinton. There are some people who are moved by almost everything Bush says, but almost nothing Clinton says. Others are the opposite. Not me. I'm moved by some of the things they both say, and I find much of what both say to be neither logical nor reasonable. I don't care who is saying it, what matters to me is what is being said.
Take this post as another example. Can you evaluate whether it is logical independent of the fact that it was written by me, or not?
#48
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times
in
3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by sbhikes
Look at this doozy. It's awful. I can't imagine why anybody would use such a terrible death trap.
By the way, they put this in in 1976 for some big deal bike route way back then.
By the way, they put this in in 1976 for some big deal bike route way back then.
Google for more info... however I did not see a specific Bikecentennial site... just folks writing about it.
#49
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,971
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,533 Times
in
1,044 Posts
Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
We're a bit off topic....
Wait, I'm hungry...what...what were we just talking about?
Wait, I'm hungry...what...what were we just talking about?