EnigManiac

Six years ago, the Toronto Bicyling Committee proposed a program that would see all LBS's and other retailers that resell used bicycles be required to register all bicycles consigned to their stores and entered into a database where they would be cross-referenced with local police. The idea was that it would be mroe difficult for thieves to sell their stolen property to second-hand stores as it would be discovered they had, in fact, stolen the bikes. It would also encourage victims to report thefts. There were 7,000 reported thefts in Toronto last year and police estimate twice that number went unreported---10% of all bike thefts in Canada. Astounding figures, but Toronto has been the bike-theft capital of North America for more than thirty years, so it comes as no surprise. Pawn-shops like Cash Converters oppose the idea saying it would be unworkable and too costly. They are still fighting it in court. Six years later. Even if the courts rule in favour of the committee, the system is still two years away from realization anyway. Eventually, the system would go nation-wide, they hope, so that thieves would have few, if any, places to sell their ill-begotten wares, but that might take three additional years or more.

So, what do you think? Good idea? Waste of time?

I know, thieves sell and will sell privately. I've been approached countless times and asked if I wanted to buy a bike 'cheap.' I know it's been stolen. Can I prove it? Not likely. Can I do anything to stop the guy or anything? No. Not without incident, I imagine.

So, will a registry have any effect?

Apparently, Saskatchewan has one that they say has proven successful.

joejack951

I don't know what that system would cost, but would it possibly be cheaper for the city to provide more secure bicycle storage at a cheaper cost? Even if the cost was higher, it should be just an initial hit and then very little maintenance as opposed to the tracking system.

I bring this up because I would LOVE for just one store in my area to offer a decent place to lock a bike. Even the LBS doesn't have a bike rack of any kind (they do let me bring my bike inside though).

ignominious

Stolen bikes have long been a lucrative source of income for pawn shops and the less scrupulous indies. Oddly enough its the chains like Cash Converters who would find it easiest to take on such a system.

Personally I think that it could and should work. By implementing a system like this you offer protection in both ways. Once to the original owner of a bike as it would cull the demand for stolen ones and also for the purchaser of a second-hand bike. If there is an onus on the bikeshop to keep and report a record of all second-hand bikes then if their preloved pride and joy turns out to be hotter than Neve Campbell they would have recourse to claim back the cost from the retailer.

I would also like to see the Police create an online registry of stolen bike frame numbers that have been reported to them. Something that can be checked by private purchasers quickly and easily. Then again I would quite like to see some kind of incentive for people who have had their bikes stolen to report the theft to the police.

MarkS

The pawn shop claims sound bogus. With simple database technology and a web interface, a bike could be checked and registered in seconds. The cost would likely be less than adding more secure parking, assuming that Toronto already has a reasonably competent IT staff (if not, hire me ). The law would need some additional teeth to penalize shops that enter false serial numbers.

Of course, this may just force thieves into the business of sanding off serial numbers, but anything that makes their work harder should reduce the total number of thefts/resells. It could also force them into more ebay stuff, but that also takes more work than selling locally.

EnigManiac

Most areas in Toronto are well supplied with good locking posts, I must admit. It's difficult to find a commercial or business street without a long stretch of well-maintained locks. While some bikes are likely stolen from these areas in spite of the diligence of the owner to lock his/her bike, I think it's more likely that folks have them stolen from their private proerty late at night. I had a locked-up bike on my rear portch five years ago that was swiped. Downtown Toronto features hundreds of thousands small homes where a bike inside would be very obtrusive and it seems almost everyone has a bike locked up to their portch, fence, railing, etc., if not inside their garages (if they have one). Any thief just has to have the proper tools and cruise through any downtown neighbourhood for a night an pick up as many bikes as he can.

AndrewP

An on-line database would be better if the original seller entered the frame number and purchasers name. Then the second hand store could check the ID of the person selling the bike to them.

joejack951

Got ya. That's a frustrating situation and one that I've dealt with in Philly when I lived there. The only answer was the bring the bike inside and store it in a closet, but that's assuming there is closet space and that the bike isn't as dirty as a commuter bike almost always is.

If there are good bike racks in town, could they maybe take away some on-street car parking to make room for a similar bike rack for the residents of that street to use?

genec

Isn't amazing how much space a city can devote to auto parking... but not to bike parking.

How many bikes can be parked in one auto parking space?

ajay677

The discussions of cost of a a 'bike registry' sound familiar. The last registry proposed and implemented in Canada was the infamous gun registry. Costs for that were initially pegged at around 3 million dollars. Almost 2 billion dollars later, the costs are mounting and the new government is on the verge of cancelling the registry.

On a positive note, I work in a youth detention centre, part of which is used as an emergency shelter for troubled youth. One of our shelter residents was loudly bragging about the bike they stole the previous night and rode back to the shelter. One phone call and an hour later police were here to impound the bike and gather information about the thief. Possesion of stolen property charges are pending. Hopefully, the bike will be reunited with the rightful owner.

ignominious

The standard conversion usually runs at 10 to 1 if decent racks are installed.

randya

Eight to Twelve bikes in a parking space.

Portland is working on a policy that would allow the city to remove on-street curbside auto parking spaces and replace them with bike parking 'corrals' located in the street but protected by bollards or other barriers. I reviewed the proposal and find it somewhat onnerous to qualify. The requirements are something like: (1) demand for bike parking and lack of adequate existing bike parking must be demonstrated based on parked bike counts in the immediate area (but how many parked bikes are you going to count if adequate bike parking is not present already?), (2) ALL (100%!) of affected local businesses must consent to the parking space conversion, (3) once the city installs a bike parking corral, local businesses subsequently become responsible for maintenance.

It's certainly a good idea, there is bike and scooter parking like this all over Paris, but it should be easier to implement.

TYB069

I would think that most bicycle shops would hate this. My reasoning is that it is possible for shops that sell used bicycles to sell the same bike several times (New and then used/stolen). The person whose bike was stolen will need to buy another and it is very unlikely to walk into the shop your stolen bike is now at so that shop may benefit somewhat even if they are clean.

HoustonB

One of the primary challenges with this type of on-line database is making sure that it is extremely secure – somewhat close to your typical e-commerce transaction i.e. the web address should start with https and owner details should be very loosely coupled to bike details. Failure in this area reduces the database to an excellent source of information on who has the kind of bike a thief desires – stolen to order becomes more likely.

In general this is eminently do-able and I would not stop at just registering my bike – all items of significant value usually carry serial numbers. Why the insurance industry has not banded together and provided this service I will never know – oh wait, yes I do, they have a vested interested in increased theft.

Between MarkS, Helmet Head (software engineer), myself and probably a bunch of others on these forums, you would think that we could knock up our own International system and provide it gratis to BikeForums.Net

Anybody else interested?

noisebeam

This is the city of Tempe, AZ bicycle code which requires bicycle registration - see sec. 7-11.
https://www.tempe.gov/citycode/07bicycles.htm

A few comments on it:
1. Registration uses a different number than the S/N and this number must be chisled/stamped into the frame. Its costs $8 or so. Several LBS have the forms and dies to do this, but the LBS where I bought my bike highly recommended I don't as the place they are told to do it is on the bottom of the BB and this will be a place for rust to develp and they said it would likely void the frame warrantee. I ran into dead ends when I tried to get it engraved with police chief approval instead.
2. While it is required, note sec 7-4 which says there is no penalty or civil sanction for not following 7-11. But one must do 7-11 to not violate 7-12.
3. No thanks.

Here is the relevant texts with my bolding:
"Sec. 7-11. Registration requirements.
(a) Every owner of a bicycle, before the same shall be operated on any of the streets, alleys, sidewalks or public highways in the city, shall register the bicycle with an authorized agent of the city.
(b) This article shall apply to every bicycle owner who has resided in the city for thirty (30) days or longer regardless of whether they are a part-time or full-time resident. In the event that Arizona State University requires registration of bicycles, any bicycle so registered shall be exempt from the registration requirements of this article.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person to operate a bicycle requiring registration and not registered pursuant to this article on any street, alley, sidewalk or public highway in the city.
(d) Every authorized agent shall, prior to selling a new or secondhand bicycle to anyone residing within the city, ensure that the bicycle is registered pursuant to this chapter. Dealers of new or secondhand bicycles who have not been designated as "authorized agents" shall, prior to selling same to anyone residing within the city, inform the purchaser of the requirements of this chapter.
(e) This article shall in no way interfere with the secondhand dealer's responsibility pursuant to chapter 16, Tempe City Code.

Sec. 7-12. Bicycle registration cards—Required information.
The bicycle registration cards will contain the following information:
(a) Name and address of owner;
(b) Make, model, serial number, license tag number, color and general description of bicycle;
(c) Date issued;
(d) Change of address and new owner information.

Sec. 7-13. Same—Distribution.
Repealed.

Sec. 7-14. Fees.
The fee for registration of each bicycle shall be set by council (See Appendix A) and be collected and retained by the authorized agent of the city to defray the costs of registration. This fee may be waived by the police or fire chief or their designees for registrations made pursuant to a city-sponsored bicycle registration program.

Sec. 7-15. Duration.
(a) The registration provided for in this article shall be valid for the life of the bicycle. All bicycle registrations shall be appurtenant to the specific bicycle for which issued, and no other, and shall not be transferred to or used on any other bicycle.
(b) It shall be the duty of every person who sells or transfers ownership of any bicycle to report such sale or transfer by returning to the police department the registration card issued to such person, together with the name and address of the person to whom the bicycle was sold or transferred. Such report shall be made within five (5) days of the date of the sale or transfer. It shall be the duty of the purchaser or transferee of such bicycle to apply for a transfer of registration therefor within five (5) days of the sale or transfer. The original registration tag, which has no expiration date, shall remain on the bicycle and the number reassigned to the new registered owner.

Sec. 7-16. Applications for registration.
Application for bicycle registration shall be made by the owner of the bicycle, or upon his written authorization, to the authorized agent.

Sec. 7-17. Registration tags and cards.
(a) The city shall provide to authorized agents the registration tags or dies for use in registering bicycles, together with registration cards.
(b) It shall be the duty of the authorized agents to maintain, repair or replace damaged dies as necessary.

Sec. 7-18. Destruction.
No person shall remove, destroy, mutilate or alter any registration tag, seal or registration card. Nothing in this section shall prohibit the authorized agent from stamping identifying symbols, letters or numbers on the frame or removable parts of licensed bicycle as in their discretion is practicable. The police chief or his designee may authorize an applicant's engraving of the frame in lieu of a stamp. Such engraving must be approved by the chief or his designee.
Sec. 7-19. Removal, etc., of frame numbers.
No person shall willfully or maliciously remove, destroy, mutilate or alter the number of any bicycle frame.

Sec. 7-20. Reissuing tags.
In the event any bicycle registration tag is lost, destroyed or mutilated so as not to be legible, the owner of such registration tag shall immediately make application to an authorized agent, and shall be issued another tag upon approval of such application by the police chief or his designee upon payment of a fee, if any, set by the council (Appendix A Fee Schedule)."

HoustonB

What happens if the sale is to an entity outside of Tempe, AZ? Also, do you happen to have any ball park idea of the uptake?

noisebeam

I know nothing about it other than its the only bicycle related law I don't follow.

I had money in hand ready to register at LBS, but got scared of by the idea of chiseling dies making contact with my new steel frame and didn't want to expend any more energy other than the two dead end phone calls I made trying to find out how I could go with the 'engraving' option.

Al

EricDJ

If they can't steal and resell bikes, they could and would resell the parts and ditch the frame. While it would reduce theft, it probably wouldn't eliminate it. I read somewhere online that here in AL, a metal recycler is supposed to log serials of bikes brought in as scrap. Don't know if they really do it.

EnigManiac

Personally, I like the idea a great deal and I see that Noisebeam's post proves it exists elsewhere. The success of the program may be debatable, however, as one would rely on ALL shops taking part without exception. Of course, that creates an underground industry where one knows he can go to 'a cerrtain house' or 'a certain shop' or see 'a certain guy' where he can get a bike cheap. And, of course, thieves will just transport stolen bikes to a nearby city and sell the there unless the program is nationwide.

HoustonB

See my post above - the answer is an International system. No system is going to reduce theft to zero, but it should not be difficult to dissuade the less serious thieves.

atbman

There are a couple of systems in the UK (one's called datalog, or somesuch). You simply pay £25 to register and get a very hard to remove sticker containing your register number. This can be read by equipt. held in various police stations.

I don't know how widespread it is, but it does act both as a deterrent and a method of returning your beloved machine to you

patc

Hmm, well it's certainly worth consideration, but I'm not sure its the worth the time/cost. My LBS copied the serial number to the receipt for warrante use anyway, I would think most would (?) so it should not be too much more effort to periodically upload the info. To be worth it, though, you need a police force willing to be proactive in fighting bicycle theft. Will they make more than token responses to stolen bike reports? Will they commit to checking every last bike found against the serial number database? Will they look at programs such as decoy bikes, to catch thieves?

To be blunt I think any type of crime is only as common as it is convenient - if bike thieves, or vandals, or car thieves, etc. get get away with it, they will. If it is known that there is no active policing of an area, and/or that the crime will not be taken seriously, then you can expect a high rate of that type of crime. A bike serial number database could be a good tool if local police forces have the time, resources, and willingness to use that tool as part of an active crime fighting program.

As Al mentioned in this thread, I am also not willing to carve or stamp a number into a new bike - if for no other reason than it makes the bike unreturnable and would void the warrante on the frame. The bike has a good and unique number stamped into it already!

EnigManiac

You have good point that police resources are stretched thin and they have bigger priorities. They often just don't take it seriously either and I think, for those reasons alone, they support the initiative because the program is a deterrent, meaning thieves perhaps won't steal bikes as often as they do here if it is difficult to get rid of. Any fool that tries to get rid of it will either have it seized at the store or, if the store employees aren't willing to become directly involved and risk a confrontation, risk a report of their description being given to the cops. It serves to make bike theft an inconvenience, as you point out. When there are an estimated ten to twenty thousand bike thefts per year in a city, the cops tend to take it more seriously than other cities, so maybe they're not as unconcerned or apathetic as we think.

patc

It occurred to me, after writing the previous message, that this could be good for easy enforcement as well. What if, for example, police strongly suspect that a bike shop or pawn shop is accepting stolen bikes? Hard to prove right now, but if all serial numbers are tracked then you can just check the shop's inventory - pretty hard to claim innocence if a dozen bikes on the shop floor have been reported as stolen!

HiYoSilver

AMEN. I will only lock my bike in a bike locker. Ever try to find those babies? We need a national law for bikers like the disability acts. It's not optional, major businesses must provide bike locker farms for:
-- shopping malls
-- grocery stores over 1200 SF
-- businesses with more than 30 employees
-- theaters and rec centers of all kinds
-- big box stores

I think someone once said, build it and they will come.

bkrownd

Can you imagine the uproar that would cause? That idea would sink fast as soon as the public hears about it.