genec

The "Notion" exists… I know what it is and I think I can explain it. I don’t believe HH has even properly defined the "Notion."

It comes down to this: “Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”

That’s it.

How do I know it exists?
I was riding home on a narrow 25MPH road, near a school, with speedbumps, and cars parked on either side… in other words, not much street surface upon which to ride… Just enough room for two narrow cars to pass side by side.

I was in the right lane, leftish of center, as I was expecting to go straight through the intersection ahead, which was controlled by a currently stale red traffic light. Also at the intersection was a car, waiting, to turn right; they were clearly pulled to the right… waiting for a gap… waiting for a green… what ever might move them sooner.

Behind me was a small truck… I’m moving at about 12MPH… 4 car lengths to either the red light, or the stopped car on the right. Everything is at a stop… ahead.

The motorist behind me reved up, I put out the outstretched hand… and then in a sudden move, he swerved around me to cover the entire 2 car lengths… to a stop.

He stopped right behind the already stopped vehicle… at the red light! I pulled up and yelled at his closed window… (BTW I am on the left of him because I am… as I said, going straight through)

I yell: “What, a pint of gas to go that 20 feet?”

He rolls down his window and says: “Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”

That’s it… everything else was just mindless rage and anger… and talking to a blank wall.

Where was I supposed to go? He was turning right; so to expect me to move to the right was totally mindless. I was going straight. I was right where I was supposed to be. In 2-3 car lengths he was going to come to either a red light… or another car… stopped.

A virtual brick wall.

Yet he had to get around me… because:

“Bikes are supposed to get outta the way.”

That’s it.

derath

The $20mil question is why?

Why is it that bikes are thought of in that way. Is it our culture?

I would be curious too, how the chinese, for example feel. Everyone has seen the photos/videos of downtown Shanghai, with the tons of bicycle riders. I wonder if you asked a cager how he felt, if he would be just as annoyed? The real question being, are the bikes more accepted there, or do people just have to deal with them more (safety in numbers). I would venture to guess that cagers in China don't really like cyclists anymore than they do here in the USA. They just don't have as much they can do about it since they are the minority.

Guess maybe it comes down to majority rules? Dunno. Would be interesting to ask.

-D

Blue Order

I think I understand this point of view: A bicycle is inherently the slower vehicle, so because it is the slower vehicle, it should yield to-- "get outta the way of"-- the inherently faster vehicles.

The individual circumstances don't really matter-- it doesn't matter that the light is red and all vehicles are stopped; it doesn't matter that all traffic is moving slowly; it doesn't matter that the bicycle may actually be moving faster than the motor vehicles. A bicycle is the slower vehicle, and should therefore get outta the way. It's not about rational thinking, it's about visceral reaction.

Of course, the problem is that the motorist can hold this point of view independent of whether bike lanes exist or not, which renders irrelevant the reasoning of the evangelist of PC.

HoustonB

385 words and all we know is: a male driver of a small truck and scant location details. That was really useful. Obviously you have given these types of interactions considerable thought and have concluded that Mr. Cretin poses no threat to any other cyclists at any point in the future.

You might argue that this was a very minor and trivial confrontation, yet it seems to have been enough to motivate you to “yell at his closed window” and subsequently start a thread here on the subject.

I’ll be the first to admit that I do not include a pen as a specific piece of equipment in the same manner as say the pump, spare tube and tire levers, but I’m starting to think it should be. From now on I’m going to try to remember in the heat of the moment that at a minimum the license plate details and a photo or good description of the driver/vehicle/plates are required.

No Record = No Consequences.

randya

Here's an article on Oregon bike law that specifically says bikes aren't subject to the slow moving vehicle law: https://www.stc-law.com/slowmoving.html

Blue Order

I know, I know. I'm not saying that motorists views are right, or even rational (in fact, I'm saying they're visceral, and not rational). I'm just saying that I think I understand what's going through their minds when they say stuff like "Bikes are supposed to get outta the way."

Helmet Head

Right, just like a racist can hold his point of view independent of whether race segregated facilities exist where he lives. The official sanction of the relevant thinking has nothing to do with how justified these racists and morons feel in teaching others lessons about their way of thinking. So the whole MLK civil rights thing - that was a big waste of time. After all, it didn't solve anything. We'd be no worse off if The South still had segregated water fountains, back of the bus rules, and all the other Jim Crowe laws and customs. And for those of you at a 6th grade reading level, no, I'm not comparing bike lanes to racism or racial segregation.

Yes, of course a motorist can hold this POV independent of whether BLs exist or not. But that does not mean bike lanes have NO EFFECT on how many people hold the view, or how deeply they believe it.

You are absolutely right this mostly comes from a visceral reaction. But what makes this feeling so deep? Why do they feel so justified in feeling this way? That's where bike lanes play an important role, I believe. It's one thing to just think it, or just feel it. It's another to see an official sanction of what you're feeling. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that it's a powerful thing to see your thoughts and feelings officially sanctioned. Do we really want to be supporting anything that amounts to an official sanction of what these morons are thinking? No, getting rid of bike lanes won't solve the problem, just like repealing Jim Crowe laws did not solve racism. But it's an important first step. How can you argue that blacks and whites should be treated equally when there are signs that say blacks must get on at the back of the bus? How can you argue that cyclists have the same right to the roads and traffic lanes when there are signs and laws that say cyclists must stay in there segregated areas unless they have a very good reason to venture outside of them?

Consider how smokers are treated now that no-smoking is officially sanctioned (no smoking areas, etc.) Why is the visceral reaction to smoking so much stronger today than it was 20 years ago (we've known about smoking causing cancer for twice as long, so it's not just that)? Think about that.

Now think about the guy who thinks bike don't belong in the traffic lanes, and sees that his thoughts and feelings on the issue are officially sanctioned by the existence of bike lanes. After all, if bike lanes aren't there to get bikes out of the traffic lanes, because they outta be outta the traffic lanes, what are they for? How can you not understand that the moron will feel stronger about his beliefs, and more justified in teaching you a lesson about them, and thus more likely to do so, when he sees that they are officially sanctioned as bike lanes? Are you just ignoring everything I say about bike lanes because of how you feel about me (talk about visceral reaction)? Or do you really not see it?

But you're not listening, so why do I even bother to try to convince you? Maybe someone else is listening. Is there anybody out there? Does this make sense to anyone? Or am I all alone here?

randya

Actually, you are starting to make some sense now, Serge. But - and I think Gene would agree with me - we could still have bike lanes and the legal right to use the traffic lanes when appropriate, without a litany of these types of incidents, if proper motorist education and enforcement was a bigger part of the equation.

The city and state governments have the responsibility to perform this type of education and enforcement, if for no other reason than because it is in the interest of public safety - government's essential charge - but they have almost entirely abrogated their responsibility in this regard. Typically, when a cyclist is the victim of harassment or worse and reports the situation to the authorities, at best the cops do nothing (no crime committed, no witnesses, blah blah); at worst, they side with the motorist. 'Share the road' messages are usually so vague they are worse than meaningless - most motorists still take 'share the road' to mean GTF outta my way.

Helmet Head

But teaching that cyclists have the same rights to the road in an environment with bike lanes in which everyone knows that cyclists are supposed to ride in is ludicrous, and meaningless.

You might as well have one official standing there spouting off "same roads, same rights, same rules" while another one, standing just behind him, yelling at a cyclist, "you, over there... yeah you! GET IN THE BIKE LANE!". It's absurd. And yet this is the official party line. The reason they get away with it is because hardly anyone cares enough to try to make any sense out of it. There are those who care about getting bikes out of the way. As long as they see the bike lanes, and cyclists riding obediently in them, they don't care what the letter of the law says. Then there are the cyclist who just need a space they can call their own. They don't care why. They're like cows happily following each other to the slaughter house... dum dee dum. This contradictory policy has most people thinking they're pretty happy with it. Then there's a small number of us in the corner, going... "HELLO??? WTF is the matter with you people? This makes no sense. The emperor has no clothes. How in the heck are you going to get morons to accept cyclists on the roads when you're telling the morons they're right about cyclists needing to be out of their way and in the bike lanes? Answer: you can't do it. Can't be done." And everyone, even the "cycling advocates", give US a bad time for pointing this out! But their reaction is visceral too, since we are questioning the value of their sacred cow. It's nuts. It's completely nuts.

Az B

That happens to me frequently here in the Atlanta suburbs. As I'm approaching a stop sign or red light, I'll take the lane, stick my hand out to indicate stopping, and many times the person behind me takes offense to the fact that I'm in thier way and zooms around me only to slam on thier brakes 20-50ft down the road. Sometimes this can lead to the squeeze as the person tries to get back in the lane before the stop, but there's not enough room. I even had one guy that very calmly and rationally (to him, anyway) told me what a poor road user I was after I had to run the stop sign to keep from being squeezed when he nearly ran me into the curb about 5 feet from the stop sign as he tried to pass me.

All the bike lanes, MUPs, blinkies, and helmets in the world would not be nearly as effective as training drivers in this country and enforcing the current laws of the road. IMO.

Az

chipcom 

The notion is very simple - 'everything is supposed get out of the way' It isn't just bikes. The root cause is the inherent selfishness and bad manners of human beings, not because somebody built a bike path or rode on a sidewalk. Deal with root causes, rather than tilting at windmills that are nothing by symptoms.

chipcom 

+1 Unfortunately quasi-political 'advocates' prefer to spend their time on a crusade against bike lanes rather than on enforcement of current laws, which they feel is a minor issue with little return - of course the return they want are new members of the cult, not actual change.

Daily Commute

Actually, many cyclists hold similar views about cars, believing that we shouldn't be stuck behind cars. For example, many cyclists will filter forward at lights, forcing cars to pass them a second time.

I call these the two Golden Myths of cycling in traffic:

• No cyclist shall ever slow down a car;
• No car shall ever slow down a cyclist.

chipcom 

Or perhaps the Golden Rule - thou shalt not slow down anyone, anywhere, or anytime! That seems to be the prevalent morality of our society.

LittleBigMan

It's me.

I-Like-To-Bike

You have had one devoted fellow who repeatedly sings your praises on this Forum. Of course that fellow has some gullibility and emotional issues to work out. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard.

Bekologist

driving in america, and the culture of automobile transit,- petrocentric transportation, and everything associated with it, breeds contempt for cycling.


And Mr. Head, you make things up- drivers by and large do not yell "Get in the bike lane" they yell
"Get out of the road!"- a very telling semantic difference.

Maybe they do yell it at Mr. Helemet, because he doesn't know how to use velotransit accomodated roadways properly- Mr. H, they have bike 101 classes available to learn how to use a bike lane!

But the drivers think bikes should be out of the way. Period.

genec

No this I disagree with... I honestly feel that if I were in or on any other vehicle, this guy would have stayed behind me. There was no reason for him to rush to the stop... and any other vehicle slowly coasting to a stop at my 12MPH would have been an inconvience to the guy behind me, but would not have caused him to swerve out of his way, all the way into the oncoming lane, just to get around them.

This was directed at bicycles. Period... and so blatent and so perverse that it really surprised me. I was not in any danger, but it was a totally stupid move by that motorist for essentially no gain. Something totally visceral is what drove this guy.

In a certain sense, from my viewpoint, it was almost laughable, except that it happened... HH has a point.

I am not sure I buy all the anti-bike lane stuff as I still feel that on high speed multilaned roads, BL make some sort of sense.... they do eliminate the ambiguity of sharing a lane at high speeds... That I belive.

But this idea of "the Notion" really is an issue... where in the hell do they get it? And why does it come out in a simple, low key place like a 25MPH residential street, while approaching and obvious stop...

galen_52657

There are a lot of haters out there - folks who hate their job, hate there wife, hate their miserable little lives and most of all, hate themselves. And there you are in front of them on that silly damn bike looking like you may just be enjoying yourself just a little.

The haters hate that most of all. And since the hater can't change jobs (he's too dumb) can't find another woman (he's to dumb, too fat and has bad hygiene) and can't figure out how to change his miserable little existence, he is going to change something - he his going to get around you for no good reason other than he can.

Just another dumb-ass with nothing going for them.

bikebuddha 

What I don't understand is how this attitude persists when a bike is traveling at or above the speed limit. I have a road with a 20 mph speed limit on my commute and it's a descent so I can easily do it and yet cars still ride on my wheel and pass me at the first opportunity.

I-Like-To-Bike

Wow! How do you know all this detail about the driver who went around the OP? Perhaps you can analyze with your psychic crystal ball the reasons why the OP got so wrapped around the axle over a trivial incident that caused him no harm nor threatened him in any way. Or at least there was no threat until the OP attempted to start a confrontation with the driver after the "incident" was over.

genec

BTW just to clarify things for any of you that want a more complete picture... this occured at Bannock and Genesee in San Diego... I was east bound on Bannock... a very quiet narrow street with an elementary school, a community center and a park, very near where this happened. There are also speed bumps on the road near the school.

Here is the google satellite pic: https://maps.google.com/?ll=32.832911...04565&t=k&om=1

This all occured right in less than the short distance shown by the large grassy area of the park. Notice all the parked vehicles along both sides... especially that last one just before the intersection. These prompt me to ride out about 5 feet from the cars... and in this case I was going straight through, so I was left of the center of the lane.

And in case clothing or bike type might also be considered... There was no lycra involved. I was wearing a blue sweatshirt, and khaki colored shorts... no helmet, and riding a fat tire heavy Murry bike... like something from Wally World. (actually a garage sale bike... ) I live just 2 blocks from this corner... this is my neighborhood.

It was about 7:10 at night, there was about 20 minutes of good light available. The sun was at my back and made the entire scene, as we moved from west to east, quite visible

Helmet Head

As Gene pointed out, it's not that simple. Motorists are generally much more accepting of other vehicles that get in their way, for example. What's the difference? Whether the delay is considered "reasonable" in their minds. And, so, for us, the root problem is that they believe bicyclists in the traffic lane is not reasonable. And with bike lanes, and our acceptance and even support for them, we sanction that belief.

genec

You are way off base... which is understandable since you were not there.

The driver make an incredibly stupid move for no gain what so ever... he could not go anywhere... what then was his motivation? Why would he go out of his way to make this move that involved him revving his engine, accelerating suddenly, moving over to the other lane (facing potential traffic that could come around the corner at any second) to get around me to come to an obvious stop just feet away?

The driver could have, with much less effort, just taken his foot off of the gas and coasted to the same stop he was going to make anyway... so much less effort than going through all the awkward gyrations he made to get around me... for no reason what so ever.

Sure I was not hurt, and this happened at relatively low speeds, and no I did not feel threatened...

But the fact remains... the driver was incredibly compelled to make such a stupid move for some reason... and gaining position on the road was not the reason.

Why did I get all wrapped up over it... because it was such an outlandish display of driver going berserk over nothing. Yet for some reason, he was compelled to do it. Explain that one to me and then you might have something worth reading about.

billh

If that is . . . The Notion, then I'm a believer. The question is, what do we do about it? Become a velorutionary with an "in your face attitude", provoking conflict? Or adopt a peaceful resistance attitude, being assertive but not confrontational. You may see BL as "sanctioning" and evil belief system, while others see it as reducing friction until education can have its effect.