kf5nd

Three dead in charity ride training in 2006 in the Houston-Austin area, and I wonder... why?

The Chappell Hill incident was purely motorist recklessness, so let's not even discuss that one.

But Pearland? Sounds like cyclist error to me. And Austin? Based on Preston Tyree's current statements to the press on what not to do, I infer that maybe the rider cut it too close, or didn't look, when cutting across the exit ramp, and then got clipped? And run over, by a hit-and-run driver, but maybe the chain of events started with cyclist error?

And not to impugn the dead, but when we say that the victims were "experienced cyclists", what exactly does that mean? And whatever kind of experience they had, why didn't it serve them better when they needed it? And if it didn't serve them better, what the hell good is it?

I'm just thinking out loud, but what I fear is that if someone has the bike, the shoes, the sunglasses, and skinsuit, the gloves, and if they are moderately athletic, then we automatically label them "experienced". Maybe because they look like us, and we want to feel good about our "group", so we're all just in that big ol' generalized "experienced cyclist" pool. But that classification means nothing. Because, at the end of the day, three people are dead, and even though they may've not done anything illegal, they just-didn't-have-it-all-together in terms of safety. They were at the 90% level, but on that day, in that situation, life demanded them to be at the 99% percent level, and they just didn't have it.

And on the other hand, if someone is riding a Huffy on the sidewalk at 5 MPH, helmetless, going to and from a day labor pick-up site, we automatically call them unexperienced... even if the latter person has never had an accident or near-miss. It's just easier to call "them" inexperienced, no matter how safe they actually are.

I think this season is a wake-up call... that people who assume they are experienced and safe need to take a good hard honest look in the mirror and really examine their own practices out on the road. They need to question what they think they know. They have to go out and pro-actively seek training, and not just assume that it is for newbies. Because, unfortunately, people don't know what they don't know.

And I do think these big charity rides really do have a moral responsibility to require a certain level of training for all participants, not just prior to the ride, but prior to the training season itself. Three people are dead. That is an absolutely unacceptable price to pay for whatever benefits the charity ride creates. Is it so very hard to ask all participants to take and pass a comprehensive online quiz before they are allowed to register for the charity ride? Technology makes it so easy. Why don't they just DO IT ?


Peter Wang, LCI

randya

What are we discussing here? How about some background information on this?

edit: If you're talking about this story: https://www.statesman.com/news/conten...afe.html?imw=Y
I don't get anything from the article implying that the cyclist was either at fault or inexperienced, it sounds to me like the motorists could have eased up a bit and let her through, and there's no excuse for the second car leaving the scene.

zonatandem

Geez, maybe we should ban cars with TX plates?

randya

Right after the ones with Florida plates.

I-Like-To-Bike

Who exactly are the "we" and "us" you are generalizing about? The group of people who are "LCI's" or some other group that you feel free to represent?

SamHouston

Cutting across an exit ramp? I've never seen an exit ramp in Texas flowing onto a throughfare into the righthand lane that didn't require motorists to yield to all oncoming traffic. If this ramp flowed into the lefthand lane from the left I'd ask what the cyclist was doing in a lane with speed limits of 60mph that cars traveling much faster entered the roadway on when a right lane was available. I've driven and cycled all over the Piney Woods region and never seen an exit ramp that didn't require motorists to yield to the traffic they're trying to enter. The utility van w/trailer driver that initially struck the cyclist, though they remained at the scene, failed in their responsibilities if they managed to strike anything while exiting a ramp, and caused the chain of events that produced a corpse and a fugitive.

Unless the cyclist was "cutting across the exit ramp" against the flow of traffic, a dangerous and illegal manuever. The reports didn't indicate that's what happened though.

Anyone more familiar with the ramp in question?

kf5nd

Apparently, the riders on Loop 360 in Austin ride on the wide shoulder in the main lanes of traffic... and Loop 360 has on and off ramps like an interstate... and this woman was killed when she cut across the exit ramp and there were vehicles behind her which were exiting, but she was going straight (that's what I heard, anyway... I was not there... I can't guarantee the validity of that account).

Of course, the behavior of the drivers of the vehicles was totally illegal and inexcusable (they all fled).

But the fact remains that if she'd been more highly vigilant about traffic to her rear, she'd be alive still.

I notice that few roadies wear rear-view mirrors... this has got to change. Consistent, frequent rear-view mirror use would've saved two of these three victims from dying.

Eatadonut

I'd put money down that none of the cars behind her had turn signals on, and were all traveling about 40mph. The only thing a mirror would have let her do is see what she had probably been seeing for miles: cars behind her, about to pass.

SamHouston

Ah, yeah the loop is like that, same as Tyler and other towns with streel level loops. The report made it seem as though the van/trailer had remained as it only damned the car that killed for fleeing. Both fled eh? They're both murderers too then, doesn't matter which hit killed IMO

kf5nd

But you can see if a car is going toward the exit ramp, turn signal or not... and if it is, don't cross that exit ramp at that moment. That's not so awfully hard to do.

You have to do pretty much the same thing when you have a right-turn only lane, and you want to go straight.

You have to see what traffic behind you is doing, you have to signal your intentions, and sometimes you have to be patient and wait for a gap.

kf5nd

All of us who live in Lake Wobegon whose children are all above average. That's who.

dstrong 

Peter...you're correct in your understanding of the situation.

I ride 360 frequently and cross this intersection (Bee Caves Road/2244) each time. It is the only such "off/on ramp" intersection on my 14 mile loop...the rest are standard intersections with stop lights. If you lengthen the ride there's another such intersection with off/on ramps but these are the only two over the course of a 24 mile loop. The shoulds are really wide (maybe 8') and I always hug the right side of the shoulder, about 1 foot from the edge. I cringe when I see folks riding close to the white stripe. Just to complete the visual...these are not "clover leaf" type ramps but exists that take you down to Bee Cave Road that crosses under 360.

In any case, these are extremely dangerous intersections and my personal approach is to be overly cautious crossing them. On this particular off-ramp, I actually use a bail-out driveway into the back of a Starbuck's parking lot if I have ANY notion that the road is not completely free of traffic. After turning around in the parking lot I'm able to come back out into a coned off island that puts me at 90-degrees to the off-ramp with a great sight-line down 360. Only when it's completely clear do I cross the off-ramp and get back onto 360 to continue my ride. The corresponding on-ramp that you cross next is straight forward as you can see traffic the whole time as you parallel the on-ramp.

The off-ramp coming the other way is probably the toughest as it's near the end of a long uphill pull with no corresponding bail-out driveway. Here I will typically stop no matter what and simply wait for the natural break in traffic flow caused by traffic lights up the highway.

I-Like-To-Bike

Then I assumed correctly the "we" and "us" you were speaking of (with all the stereotyped opinions of other cyclists) live in a fantasy world of your own construct.

Eatadonut

If a car is in the right lane, how could you tell if it was going towards the exit ramp? I don't start drifting from my lane when I'm driving, so with the exception of my turn signal you'd have no indication. The only way to avoid this accident would be to assume that the cars behind you were going to turn, stop, and wait for it to be completely clear, something you don't need a mirror for.

I'm not advocating AGAINST mirrors, I'm just trying to explain that they don't always solve the problem.


Exactly. That's the only safe way to cross these exits.

joejack951

Or move into the lane before the exit. That's how I handle the one area that I ride with interstate style exits and merges. Stopping at the ramp exit is the last place I'd want to be stopped given how many people I've seen who pull into the shoulder well before the ramp when preparing to exit.

galen_52657

If this is the case she should have signaled to move into the through (strait) lane, waited for somebody to slow, merged left and proceeded. Staying on the shoulder and trying to cut across a exit ramp is much more hazardous. I have to negotiated these types of on/off ramps all the time and I NEVER ride in the ramp.

Back to the OP's premise, I see cyclists all the time who exhibit poor riding skills when it comes to dealing with traffic. One of my best riding buddies who has raced for over 15 years rides to far to the right. I admonish him about it all the time and he just says "I don't want to be confrontational" and I say "encouraging motorists to pass when it is unsafe (narrow lane, oncoming vehicles and/or insufficient sight distance) by riding 6" off the road edge has nothing to do with being confrontational, it's about protecting yourself". But, he still rides the same way.

kf5nd

Assume what you like, you're good at that.

kf5nd

I understand. Mirrors are just one tool. The only real safety tool is that jelly between your ears.

Keith99

Great description. It puts the whole loop360 safe or not into a very clear light for me. Safe route with 2 'danger' spots. From the photos I've seen it looks like a nice ride and worth the caution/wait at the two bad spots.

One question. Would it work to take the exit and then the corresponding onramp. I have only had a couple of this kind of situations where I have ridden but find that it is a good alternative if at all feasable.

noisebeam

The cyclist has three options:
1. Exit at the ramp and re-enter
2. Check with mirror and shoulder check for a gap in traffic which is sufficient enough to ensure that no car will or could be exiting as you are crossing. Do not rely on car turn signals, assume any car in right lane will be exiting and will not be slowing to let you cross. If a clear gap is not available stop before crossing ramp and wait until there is one.
3. Merge into right travel lane (only with clear signaling to and response from driver in right lane and only after establishing there is safe clearance to do so) before passing ramp and then merge back onto shoulder after passing it.

Al

dstrong 

There's very little biking space once on the off-ramp but typically the cars are slowing and you're able to get into the flow a little more easily. I've gone straight through once but usually use the method described above. I have taken the off-ramp to get onto Bee Caves Road, turning left at the light at the bottom of the exit. Here I get into line with the cars in the "outer" left turn lane (that can also go straight through and back onto 360), signal my intent to turn left and then hammer when the light turns green because there is NO bike lane under 360 for about 100 yards on Bee Caves. Once I hit the shoulder/bike lane again I catch my breath and continue the ride.

I know a lot of people cringe thinking about riding on a road with cars approaching 70 miles an hour but my guess is that if you're hit by a car doing 35-40 you might be as bad off as being hit by one going 70. Granted you have a better chance of being hit at a lower "net" speed (i.e. car doing 35, you doing 25, relative impact speed 10mph) on the slower roads but I think the wide shoulder, high speed road is safer than the narrow shoulder, mid-speed road. In Austin, there are almost no wide shoulder/bike lane, low speed (25 mph) roads.

randya

Actually, the newspaper reported that the first driver w/ the trailer stopped at the scene.

kf5nd

Oh, that's better.

Keith99

I see why you don't use the off and back on method here. I vaugely recall some sections of freeway here in Californai where riding the shoulder is allowed and there are one or two offramps where it says you must exit and then the correxponding onramp has a sign saying bikes are permitted. But unlike your situation those offramps had wide lined shoulders and the off and on was far and away the safest way to go. I've always found riding freeway shoulders where it is signed as legal in California to be quite relaxing. If the shoulder is wide and there are no offramps it is much less of a hastle than many surface streets.

banerjek

My commute takes me across a high speed exit as well as a high speed entrance. I consider mirrors critical -- especially for these crossings -- and won't ride without them.

Even cars that do not signal give numerous indications that they are turning. Their rate of speed frequently decreases somewhat and changes in lane position are common but not guaranteed. These changes are subtle and you're only likely to notice them with mirrors. Aside from that, you need to time your crossings to coincide with holes in the traffic. If you can't find one, you need to stop.

High speed ramps are very dangerous, and when I cross them, I spend more time looking behind than ahead. When approaching exit ramps, I typically move as far left as I can and try to "crowd" the cars. This has 2 effects. First, it makes me more visible. Secondly, it tends to cause all traffic to drift left -- this makes the traffic pattern look a little funny to people far back who can't see you yet, so hopefully it alerts them that something is different. If your mirrors show that someone isn't drifting left, you should be on full alert.

Just before I actually cross an exit ramp, I normally cut in as far as practical. This buys just a little more space so that if I miscalculate and a car does come down where I don't expect, I have enough room to take evasive maneuvers.

For my high speed on ramp, my lane positioning is opposite, but the idea is the same -- watch the cars like crazy, crowd them to improve visibility and alter the traffic flow, and cut across fast.