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Portland: Police Enforcement Downtown this Morning

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Portland: Police Enforcement Downtown this Morning

Old 08-03-06, 08:56 PM
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^^ Serge, you just might be heartened by this thread:

https://bikeportland.org/2006/08/03/a...n-or-a-hazard/
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Old 08-03-06, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
^^ Serge, you just might be heartened by this thread:

https://bikeportland.org/2006/08/03/a...n-or-a-hazard/

If you were going to ride in the right-hand third of the right lane, wouldn’t you prefer to have a bike lane?”

Absolutely not.
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Old 08-03-06, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
^^ Serge, you just might be heartened by this thread:

https://bikeportland.org/2006/08/03/a...n-or-a-hazard/
The responses are good. This one is very thoughtful, above our usual standards here certainly.

Austin
August 3rd, 2006 11:51


Did you know that perceived safety in a car or SUV is directly proportional to the number of cup holders it has? And that if you were in the fuzziest, marshmallow car out there, it would not feel safe without them? Consequently, some of the safest cars are those that are small, nimble, and where the driver is constantly reminded that they are in traffic. (https://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html)

I think that the same argument applies here, and it is really a question is one of actual safety versus perceived safety. In other words, if you are downtown taking a lane on Broadway, you are constantly reminded who your three to six ton neighbors are and you ride accordingly. But if you are in a bike lane, that six inch white stripe gives you the perception of a safe space (at least until you hit the end of the block, and someone turns in front of you). I would contest that in town you are probably a little safer in the middle of the lane.

The twist to the argument is one of participation. The more riders there are on the road, the safer it becomes for all of us. So if ridership defines what is actually safe (more riders=more safe), the focus should focus on what people perceive as safe, so that more people feel comfortable getting on the road.
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Old 08-03-06, 09:34 PM
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what happened to portland being one of the most bike friendly cities in the country? stupid cyclists with their high falooten whirly gigs.
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Old 08-03-06, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by spearce
stupid cyclists with their high falooten whirly gigs.
????
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Old 08-04-06, 07:48 AM
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Love it

Originally Posted by trackhub
There must not be much crime in Portland, OR.
Gee, you are on the other end of the country and figured this out. Actually, we have crime, but the city prefers to let real criminals out of jail on a regular basis. It has a bad habit of making the average Joe's life miserable, but ignoring the most aggregious offenders of social good. I find that it targets dog walkers, bicyclists, motorists, etc. But at the park where it goes NAZI on dog walkers, it will turn a blind eye to vandals, drug dealers, etc. Go figure....
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Old 08-04-06, 09:40 AM
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Are the bike lanes on Broadway new? I used to work downtown, about 3 years ago, and I seem to remember mostly riding along in the traffic lanes until I got up toward PSU.

FWIW, when I talk about bike lanes, my frame of reference are the ones along arterial streets in the suburbs. Bike lanes in dense downtown areas with one way grids (such as Broadway) don't make much sense given the parking situation and the congestion. In fact, during rush hour, I seem to remember that there is lots of double parking in front of the hotels and traffic is nearly at a standstill. That said, I haven't commuted down there for a while.

BTW, congrats Randya, for the mention on BikePortland.org (I assume you are the "Randy" mentioned). It's a great site and the guy who runs it is a pretty balanced and respectable fellow from what I read and hear.

So, is the crackdown over? I understand the tickets for fixed gear without brakes, but what other citations were given and in what numbers? If only 23 citations were given (out of the 10,000 or so cyclists daily who cross the bridges in Portland), how many were for fixed gear, bike lane violations, and other violations?

As for the breakdown of cyclists/pedestrian/motorists ticket giving, the spread isn't that bad. Yea, traffic is 95% cars, but I'd bet that there is a larger percentage of drivers who follow the laws than there is for cyclists. The fact that they were enforcing all modes of traffic, and gave out tickets in reasonable proportions, says to me that they were not cracking down on cyclists in particular. In fact, take out the tickets given for fixies, and perhaps the numbers are pretty even. I am actually surprised at the number of tickets given to pedestrians.

If this is a crackdown, it should have its own name "The Portland Crackdown." 23 tickets is not a lot considering the number of cyclists on Portland streets. I stand by my earlier statement that I think this will be a good thing in the long run. It will act to define the rules and give something for advocate centers such as the BTA and Shift something to push against. If there were lots of bike lane violations given for the Broadway section, then it will focus attention on what might be a bad design; perhaps even resulting in the bad design being changed. If the bike lane violations were given out in error, then it will be an educational experience for law enforcement. They don't always know the rules either, and complicating that is the fact that the rule have recently changed.
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Old 08-04-06, 10:41 AM
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Pretty mixed responses regarding the BL on Broadway in Portland...

The comments about BL being best used on high speed arterials really hits home for me. I also tend to agree that BL in downtown 25MPH areas, ESPECIALLY along parked cars, are both useless and a hazard.

But I feel that if the city is going to put in BL, they should also look at the overall picture... how do BL effect all traffic, how usable are the BL. What things are preventing cyclists use of the BL?

Consider this post from https://bikeportland.org/2006/08/03/a...n-or-a-hazard/
I think we might want to consider a new direction instead of debating the safety of bike lanes and the ticketing of those of us that choose not to ride in them. Perhaps we should focus our attention towards getting the police to issue citations for drivers that interfere with bike lanes. I have more than once watched a driver block the bike lane in plan sight of an officer and seen nothing done about it. If the police want to write tickets, I say they should focus on making our bike lanes safer by trying to “educate” by way of a citation drivers who illegally use these lanes.
Imagine putting in a street somewhere and having it always full of pedestrians.... so much pedestrian traffic that an auto would have to crawl down the lane to ensure not hitting anyone... motorists would think that outragous... but it seems like that is exactly what they have done with the BL on Broadway. Doesn't make much sense when you look at it from the standpoint of a user, does it?

I also find it interesting the issues that another poster brought up... reguarding the "crackdown." If 95% of the users of the road are motorists... shouldn't at least half the tickets go to motorist violators? Are the cops being fair in their enforcement of the laws?
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Old 08-04-06, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
...
I also find it interesting the issues that another poster brought up... reguarding the "crackdown." If 95% of the users of the road are motorists... shouldn't at least half the tickets go to motorist violators? Are the cops being fair in their enforcement of the laws?
If you look at the breakdown of tickets, the numbers of tickets given to cyclists, pedestrians, and drivers were fairly even. The police have a tough job. If they only pick on one transportation mode, they get accused of bias. If the tickets are given based on mode split, they are accused of ticketing in accordance with a quota instead of ticketing in accordance to what they see.

Frankly, the limus test for me is whether they were ticketing all three modes. They were. The numbers are less important, since they shouldn't be keeping track of them at all. I'd much rather see cops giving tickets in accordance to what they see than keeping a tally sheet. It's not like this was critical mass and the cops showed up and gave everyone a ticket for trumped up violations.... This was commuter traffic and tickets were given individually. If there is any bias, it is intrinsic with the individual cops. That would tell us that the PPB needs some education on this matter. That they ticketed all modes means they were at least sensitive to looking like they were cracking down on cyclists.

If the cops aren't being fair, that's to be determined after the tickets are given. If it is found that there is a bias (numbers aren't good evidence; if 1% of cars violate laws and 30% of cyclists do, then the numbers won't match the mode split), then action can be taken by advocacy groups. If the tickets are for real violations, we need to focus on cyclist education, on rewriting bad laws, and fixing bad infrastructure. But to apply force, there must be something to push against.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:03 AM
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Perhaps we should focus our attention towards getting the police to issue citations for drivers that interfere with bike lanes. I have more than once watched a driver block the bike lane in plan sight of an officer and seen nothing done about it.
Is it illegal in Portland to block or "interfere with" a bike lane? What if you're entering a driveway, and there is a holdup in the parking lot you're entering, and you have to stop as you're entering the driveway, thus blocking the bike lane? That would annoy a lot of cyclists who are uncomfortable with having to leave the perceived safety of the bike lane to get around him, but is it illegal? What about opening a door in a door zone bike lane? Of course it's illegal to do it when that would cause a cyclist to crash, but say he's a half a block down, and it takes you a minute to get the kid out, so by the time he gets there, the door is still open blocking the bike lane? Is that illegal?

In CA it is legal to park in bike lanes unless there is an explicit no parking sign.

So why the big deal about blocking bike lanes? Normal traffic lanes are blocked all the time. In general, if you have to block a street, you're supposed to do it "as far right as practicable". Well, that's often the bike lane. What's the problem?

Where does this notion that motorists are not supposed to "interfere" with bike lanes come from?
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Old 08-04-06, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The cop asked a good question.
What if... a brake cable snaps?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything; I run a front brake on my fixie. But I think the cop's question was ludicrous. If the law says that all one needs to do is be able to skid to a stop, well, then, a rider who can skid to a stop on a fixie meets the requirements of the law.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
If you look at the breakdown of tickets, the numbers of tickets given to cyclists, pedestrians, and drivers were fairly even. The police have a tough job. If they only pick on one transportation mode, they get accused of bias. If the tickets are given based on mode split, they are accused of ticketing in accordance with a quota instead of ticketing in accordance to what they see.

Frankly, the limus test for me is whether they were ticketing all three modes. They were. The numbers are less important, since they shouldn't be keeping track of them at all. I'd much rather see cops giving tickets in accordance to what they see than keeping a tally sheet. It's not like this was critical mass and the cops showed up and gave everyone a ticket for trumped up violations.... This was commuter traffic and tickets were given individually. If there is any bias, it is intrinsic with the individual cops. That would tell us that the PPB needs some education on this matter. That they ticketed all modes means they were at least sensitive to looking like they were cracking down on cyclists.

If the cops aren't being fair, that's to be determined after the tickets are given. If it is found that there is a bias (numbers aren't good evidence; if 1% of cars violate laws and 30% of cyclists do, then the numbers won't match the mode split), then action can be taken by advocacy groups. If the tickets are for real violations, we need to focus on cyclist education, on rewriting bad laws, and fixing bad infrastructure. But to apply force, there must be something to push against.

Sounds fair... frankly I too see more cyclists violating laws than motorists... based on the population of users, so yeah I can easily see more tickets going to cyclists. I know I would like to wring some necks around here sometimes.

Thanks for the voice of reason.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Is it illegal in Portland to block or "interfere with" a bike lane? What if you're entering a driveway, and there is a holdup in the parking lot you're entering, and you have to stop as you're entering the driveway, thus blocking the bike lane? That would annoy a lot of cyclists who are uncomfortable with having to leave the perceived safety of the bike lane to get around him, but is it illegal? What about opening a door in a door zone bike lane? Of course it's illegal to do it when that would cause a cyclist to crash, but say he's a half a block down, and it takes you a minute to get the kid out, so by the time he gets there, the door is still open blocking the bike lane? Is that illegal?

In CA it is legal to park in bike lanes unless there is an explicit no parking sign.

So why the big deal about blocking bike lanes? Normal traffic lanes are blocked all the time. In general, if you have to block a street, you're supposed to do it "as far right as practicable". Well, that's often the bike lane. What's the problem?

Where does this notion that motorists are not supposed to "interfere" with bike lanes come from?

Perhaps the same notion that you cannot block sidewalks... I know here in San Diego that is a ticketable offense. So if a prefered lane is offered, such as a BL or sidewalk, some enforcement effort should be made to ensure the prefered lane is available. It is also illegal to double park... and that too is a ticketable offense... so there is precedent regarding not parking or blocking traffic in the street.

You are right that often commercial traffic has little option... and for that there are and should be exceptions. (it is permissible to leave a BL for instance). But if the blocking is chronic, there is another problem.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by iamtim
What if... a brake cable snaps?

I'm not trying to be a smartass or anything; I run a front brake on my fixie. But I think the cop's question was ludicrous. If the law says that all one needs to do is be able to skid to a stop, well, then, a rider who can skid to a stop on a fixie meets the requirements of the law.
1+

The cop must enforce the law as written. Whether the law should be rewritten is a different subject. I think the recent enforcement against "brakeless" fixies will prompt a discussion on the subject if it hasn't already.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:44 AM
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The OP asked to drop the fixie issue in this thread. But, since others persist, I retract my earlier comments. Practically speaking there is a strong argument for at least a front brake on a fixie. But, legally speaking, the only point the cop has is to assert that there is no technical brake on the bike. That reverse pedaling on a fixie is equivalent functionally (close enough) to a coaster brake, which is legal, should be all that matters, legally.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Perhaps the same notion that you cannot block sidewalks... I know here in San Diego that is a ticketable offense. So if a prefered lane is offered, such as a BL or sidewalk, some enforcement effort should be made to ensure the prefered lane is available. It is also illegal to double park... and that too is a ticketable offense... so there is precedent regarding not parking or blocking traffic in the street.

You are right that often commercial traffic has little option... and for that there are and should be exceptions. (it is permissible to leave a BL for instance). But if the blocking is chronic, there is another problem.
There is a LAW that you can't park blocking a sidewalk. There is no such law for bike lanes (unless no parking is actually posted).

So, it's cyclists who think of bike lanes like sidewalks that have the notion they should be treated like pedestrians. Great.
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Old 08-04-06, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
There is a LAW that you can't park blocking a sidewalk. There is no such law for bike lanes (unless no parking is actually posted).

So, it's cyclists who think of bike lanes like sidewalks that have the notion they should be treated like pedestrians. Great.
Taking it to extremes again Serge?

Or is it the installers of the BL that tend to treat cyclists as pedestrians...

Cyclists are attempting to follow the law and ride in the provided lanes, have the notion that if the lanes are provided, they should be usable.

If a "no parking sign" exists, then the BL should not be blocked. No exceptions (such as those that often occur on Genesee near the little rich kid's school...).

If the BL is blocked, then the cyclist has the right to leave the BL... and not expect a ticket. It is that simple. Do the police understand that aspect?

But I also tend to believe that BL do not belong in downtown 25MPH traffic areas in the first place. Apparently in this case there is a cyclist to blame for the BL. Just as in this town a cyclist group has advocated a BL on a North Park street (was it Orange Ave) that did not need a BL.

BL have their place... and it is NOT everywhere.
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Old 08-04-06, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
Are the bike lanes on Broadway new? I used to work downtown, about 3 years ago, and I seem to remember mostly riding along in the traffic lanes until I got up toward PSU.

FWIW, when I talk about bike lanes, my frame of reference are the ones along arterial streets in the suburbs. Bike lanes in dense downtown areas with one way grids (such as Broadway) don't make much sense given the parking situation and the congestion. In fact, during rush hour, I seem to remember that there is lots of double parking in front of the hotels and traffic is nearly at a standstill. That said, I haven't commuted down there for a while.

BTW, congrats Randya, for the mention on BikePortland.org (I assume you are the "Randy" mentioned). It's a great site and the guy who runs it is a pretty balanced and respectable fellow from what I read and hear.

So, is the crackdown over? I understand the tickets for fixed gear without brakes, but what other citations were given and in what numbers? If only 23 citations were given (out of the 10,000 or so cyclists daily who cross the bridges in Portland), how many were for fixed gear, bike lane violations, and other violations?

As for the breakdown of cyclists/pedestrian/motorists ticket giving, the spread isn't that bad. Yea, traffic is 95% cars, but I'd bet that there is a larger percentage of drivers who follow the laws than there is for cyclists. The fact that they were enforcing all modes of traffic, and gave out tickets in reasonable proportions, says to me that they were not cracking down on cyclists in particular. In fact, take out the tickets given for fixies, and perhaps the numbers are pretty even. I am actually surprised at the number of tickets given to pedestrians.

If this is a crackdown, it should have its own name "The Portland Crackdown." 23 tickets is not a lot considering the number of cyclists on Portland streets. I stand by my earlier statement that I think this will be a good thing in the long run. It will act to define the rules and give something for advocate centers such as the BTA and Shift something to push against. If there were lots of bike lane violations given for the Broadway section, then it will focus attention on what might be a bad design; perhaps even resulting in the bad design being changed. If the bike lane violations were given out in error, then it will be an educational experience for law enforcement. They don't always know the rules either, and complicating that is the fact that the rule have recently changed.
Bike lanes on SW B'way - Installed three to five years ago, I think.

Crackdown over? - Who knows. They have been occurring on Wednesdays at different locations one or more times a month.

Ticket spread - IMO, motorists are more clued in to behaving better when they see an official police vehicle, and many of the cyclists were ticketed for doing things they believed were legal, like riding to the left on a one-way or leaving the bike lane to avoid hazards or in preparation for a left turn. Furthermore, there's no way to tell if the numbers reported by the police are accurate. Three of my coworkers were ticketed on bicycles, which leads me to believe more tickets were issued to bicyclists than the police reported.
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Old 08-04-06, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Ticket spread - IMO, motorists are more clued in to behaving better when they see an official police vehicle, and many of the cyclists were ticketed for doing things they believed were legal, like riding to the left on a one-way or leaving the bike lane to avoid hazards or in preparation for a left turn. Furthermore, there's no way to tell if the numbers reported by the police are accurate. Three of my coworkers were ticketed on bicycles, which leads me to believe more tickets were issued to bicyclists than the police reported.
additionally, it's a big problem that anything you do on a bike can earn you a $250 ticket. fines are set to punish drivers for doing things that present a big threat to others... nobody would complain if bike fines were 10% as big, because it would be fair.
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Old 08-04-06, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't bicycles considered motor vehicles by law? If they aren't considered motor vehicle why are there laws on the Oregon DMV book addressing bike law? So technically there shouldn't be a separation between the cyclist and motor vehicles ticketed... correct?
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Old 08-04-06, 01:27 PM
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Bikes are not considered to be MOTOR vehicles anywhere.
In some states they are VEHICLES, but not MOTOR vehicles.
In other states they are "devices", but cyclists have the same rights as drivers of VEHICLES (again, not drivers of MOTOR VEHICLES).

It's called the DMV because it primarily deals with the regulation of Motor Vehicles. Part of that includes the licensing of drivers of MOTOR vehicles, which includes informing and testing drivers about the laws relevant to driving MOTOR vehicles, including those laws addressing the legal operation of VEHICLES and bikes (or including bikes, depending on the state) on the roadway.
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Old 08-04-06, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by randya
Bike lanes on SW B'way - Installed three to five years ago, I think.

Crackdown over? - Who knows. They have been occurring on Wednesdays at different locations one or more times a month.

Ticket spread - IMO, motorists are more clued in to behaving better when they see an official police vehicle, and many of the cyclists were ticketed for doing things they believed were legal, like riding to the left on a one-way or leaving the bike lane to avoid hazards or in preparation for a left turn. Furthermore, there's no way to tell if the numbers reported by the police are accurate. Three of my coworkers were ticketed on bicycles, which leads me to believe more tickets were issued to bicyclists than the police reported.
They must have been installed just after I stopped working downtown. Either that or I am blind and my memory is bad. I haven't ridden down Broadway for a while now.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what the various offenses were for cyclists? I cannot believe they are only handing out tickets for bike lane and equipment violations. As for riding on the left of one way streets, I think that is legal, unless perhaps, there is a bike lane.

I wonder if this is just to "compensate" in the eyes of the motoring public for what is percieved to be an overly friendly attitude towards bicyclists. The city has to play to all it's constituents, and they did say a few months ago that there would be a focus on traffic violations by cyclists in the future.

I guess I am having a hard time reading if these tickets are given properly or if they are just to harrass. If they are giving properly, I suppose we just suck it up and take it. Perhaps use this to refocus our legislative efforts along the way. If not, than this is something else entirely.
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Old 08-04-06, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
They must have been installed just after I stopped working downtown. Either that or I am blind and my memory is bad. I haven't ridden down Broadway for a while now.

Just out of curiosity, do you know what the various offenses were for cyclists? I cannot believe they are only handing out tickets for bike lane and equipment violations. As for riding on the left of one way streets, I think that is legal, unless perhaps, there is a bike lane.

I wonder if this is just to "compensate" in the eyes of the motoring public for what is percieved to be an overly friendly attitude towards bicyclists. The city has to play to all it's constituents, and they did say a few months ago that there would be a focus on traffic violations by cyclists in the future.

I guess I am having a hard time reading if these tickets are given properly or if they are just to harrass. If they are giving properly, I suppose we just suck it up and take it. Perhaps use this to refocus our legislative efforts along the way. If not, than this is something else entirely.
I have no issues with cyclists being cited for illegal behavior. If, on the other hand, it's harassment, I think that's something the cycling community should be complaining about. The things that would make this harassment in my eyes would be:

1) focusing enforcement efforts on cyclists instead of on traffic. Even if motorists were cited, cyclists *appear* to be the predominant target of the PPB. Maybe that means that although cyclists are a smaller percentage of the traffic, a larger percentage of cyclists are scofflaws in comparison to motorists. Or maybe it means that the PPB targeted cyclists to "compensate motorists" for the cycle-friendly policies of the city, and tagged a few motorists for political cover.

2) Citing cyclists for legal behavior. If the cyclists were riding illegally, and misunderstand that, then the PPB was correct in citing them. If the cyclists were riding legally, and the PPB misunderstands the law, then the PPB was not correct in citing them. If the cyclists were riding legally, and the PPB knows that and cited them anyway, then it's harassment.

At a minimum, the BTA needs to be talking with the PPB to get the PPB on record, and if it turns out later that the PPB does have a harassment campaign in operation, as opposed to an enforcement campaign, the BTA can then take steps to change that.
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Old 08-04-06, 02:57 PM
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^ +1

Good post.

I'm not sure how effective the BTA will be in this arena, however. Talking to the police has yielded only marginal results, and very slowly. I think it's political and needs to be solved by the Mayor (who is the Police Commissioner) and / or City Council.
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Old 08-04-06, 02:58 PM
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How can you even begin to think that it's not harassment when the police were handing out tickets for something as obviously legal as using a left turn to make a left turn? When's the last time you heard of a motorist getting a ticket for using a left turn lane? It's BS and you should be outraged by it. If the advocacy efforts in Portland were really working, the police would know the laws.
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