Helmet Head

When you're in the bikelane, how do you ascertain whether overtaking motorists have noticed you? That is, I assume they don't drive in the bikelane whether or not cyclists are in the bikelane. So not driving in the bikelane is certainly not evidence that they've noticed you. So what is?

What is your basis for asserting that "they don't fail to notice you when you're in the bikelane?"

The reason I believe that about half of them don't notice me is how close about half of them pass by me when I'm in the the bikelane. I use a mirror, and so I can observe them approaching from behind. I can see the "line" they're following, and whether they stay on that line, or adjust for me as they overtake. If they adjust, then I know they noticed me. If they're close to the bl stripe, and so am I, and they don't adjust, then I assume they don't notice me. They're acting like I'm not even there, and going by me too closely. Now, because they happen to be staying on their side of the stripe, this is not really problematic in and of itself. But, it does indicate that they (about half) don't notice me when I'm in the bike lane. I realize it's not absolute scientific proof, but it's all I've got. How about you?

SingingSabre 

Wait, let me get this straight: you're trying to ascertain whether or not they noticed you by how the drive after they've passed you?!

I pretty much assume they noticed me if they pass me. Even the close ones. If there's a car in the BL headed up my arse, I generally assume that they haven't noticed me. Hopefully I'll have time to get out of the way. Luckily, I haven't had that happen...yet.

rule

I can't decide between:

Ride like everyone is going to hit you.

All squirrels are evil.

noisebeam

I think this list from "Valley Metro" is pretty good:
https://www.valleymetro.org/Rideshare...e/1Safety.html

"Bike Safety Tips
The following are some bicycle safety tips to follow for safe riding!

Always…

1. Ride on the “Right” side of the road.

2. Wear a helmet that fits snug on your head with straps that are comfortably tight under the chin.

3. Stay where cars can clearly see you.

4. Obey the rules of the road.

5. Stay alert. Keep a lookout for children, car doors opening unexpectedly, and cars exiting driveways.

6. When riding at dusk or in the dark, be sure to use reflectors, a headlight, and a taillight.

7. Wear brightly colored clothing.

8. Make eye contact with motorists to make certain they have seen you.

9. Drink enough water to stay hydrated.

10. Prevent and protect your bike from theft by locking it up. Take a picture of it and keep your receipt and bike serial number in a safe place.

11. Keep your bike well-maintained. Check tires, wheels, lights, brakes, and handlebars before each ride."

mechBgon

When I'm in the bikes-only lane at night on my mountain bike, using a $20 SuperFlash and my ANSI C3 reflective vest, and the motorists completely vacate the adjacent traffic lane, and pull into the 2-way center-turn lane to pass me, then return to the traffic lane again, that pretty much clinches it: they saw me.

When lots more motorists pull halfway across the centerline to pass me with >20 feet of lateral space when I'm on a shoulder or a bikes-only lane, then return to their lane afterwards, that pretty much clinches it too.

When I'm on the divided highway in the daytime with the Nova and my ANSI lime vest, at the far-right edge of a massive 18-foot-wide shoulder, and the semi drivers nevertheless pull from the right lane to the left lane at 2000+ feet back so they can pass me with ~50 feet of clearance, then return to the right lane after passing me, it's also clear they saw me, despite my being as far right as anyone possibly could ride without heading off into the gravel.

Actually I almost feel bad about pro truckers pulling lane changes when I'm already rock-solid on a straight line 25 feet clear of their truck, but it's their prerogative to do their job how they see fit. If they'd prefer to be 50 feet clear of me, then my visibility solution allows them plenty of advance notice so they can set up for it.

The latter example is exactly what my Nova was primarily intended for. Daytime visibility from massive range on fast roads, so no one has any unexpected surprises. This is especially important when it's icy out, since a panic maneuver on ice (particularly in 4WD vehicles) can put the vehicle into a spin, and then the crown of the road takes over and generally slides it right over to the side of the road.

Trying to judge by small changes in lane position is not a good idea around here. I should shoot some pics of Southeast Boulevard and you'd see an example of why: the surface is not good, and motorists (including myself), are constantly changing line to avoid the worst parts of the road surface. Trying to read anything else into their lane-jockeying would be futile. Southeast does have a bike lane, incidentally.

People also veer around when looking at their cell phone or their stereo (no seriously! ), adjusting their grip on their hamburger while steering their car with their knee, checking out the hawt chicks they just spotted, etc. And on my previous car, the steering had enough slop... well, you see where this is going. If you really want to know what's going on in a motorist's mind, trying to judge by subtle changes in their car's body language is not a reliable method.

Helmet Head

Yes and no. I try to ascertain whether they've noticed me based on whether they adjust to increase passing distance before they overtake me. I have to observe them before and after they pass me to know this. Now, those who are already following a straight line that puts them at a safe passing distance from me -- I have no way of knowing whether they have noticed me or not. But I do assume that the distribution of those who have noticed me and those who have not among them is about the same as those in the next group... So I only count those that are traveling near the BL stripe as they approach me. If I see them adjust to increase the passing space before they reach me, then I know they have noticed me. If they continue along their line and do not adjust and end up overtaking me with very little passing space, then I assume they did not notice me. That turns out to be about half of those who are "hugging" the BL stripe as they are approaching me from behind.

Why would you not just assume they are simply aware of the stripe and staying to the left of it. If they were aware of you, why would they not adjust left a tad so as not to pass so closely? It's practically effortless, and perfectly natural, if they are aware there is a cyclist in the bike lane.

Well, of course. But I think you're jumping to unfounded conclusions if you're assuming anyone who happens to stay in his lane has actually noticed you, and is cognitively aware of your presence.

SingingSabre 

So that would be a "yes" then, eh?

Yeah, that'd be a safe assumption, too. Either way, as long as they don't hit me, it's a moot point.

What does it matter if they don't hit me? I ride predictably just as most drivers drive predictably. If I'm in my lane, and they're in their lane, it doesn't matter if they notice me or not.

EDIT: Why do you have to over-complicate things, HH?

Helmet Head

Yes, as long as they don't hit you, it's a moot point. But if they're not aware of you as they're approaching you, and if noticing you would keep them from attending to a distraction during the attending of which they might drift across that stripe... all of a sudden not noticing you is not so moot, and probably too late for you to do anything about it.

And before you discount the likelihood of this happening, see the "bike lane deaths" thread for accounts of how often this happens.

K_V_B

On about every commute all cars that have to yield to me, do yield to me. And about half of the cars that don't have to yield to me on my bike, yield to me anyway, even when I've allready stopped. It's wierd that I actually have to wave cars through. Typical for how drivers act here is a car that wants to turn right and waits until I've passed (bikelane or no bikelane) , or a car that slows down to turn right behind me.

But then drivers might be more competent (and courteous) over here.

Cyclaholic

I have only one rule:-

At the end of the day get back home alive.

If I pedalled home in one piece it was a good day.

R-Wells

I have many personal rules of the road.
But only two that I pay particular attention to always.

1: dont fall on my chin.
2: Dont run over my own foot.

Cyclaholic

What planet do you cycle on?...or do you just make this stuff up to suit yourself? (rhetorical questions)
Perhaps they don't move because they don't care same reason as to why some make barely any effort on a NOL to avoid taking your arm off with their mirror. Or more likely they don't move for the same reason that they don't move when passing another car in another lane - there's a lane divider line, they are fully aware of the other vehichle or cyclist, they are in their lane and you are in yours (the bike lane) and therefore there is no reason for them to move regardless of how cognitive they are of your presence.


You're also jumping to the opposite conclusion, equally unfounded.

And as for POWERWEAVING If a driver is sufficiently distracted that they are wandering in and out of their lane without them realising it, and in fact so distracted that once they stray into the bike lane don't notice a cyclist dead ahead then guess what - POWERWEAVING into a position dead ahead of them probably won't make a lick of difference. You'll get hit regardless. Maybe that's why rear end collisions between cars are so common. if they fail to see the mass of a car in front of them what chance do you have of being seen?

ItsJustMe

- Be visible
- Be predictable
- Be assertive

If you have lights and bright clothing, people will see you (in my experience). If you're acting in a consistent and legal manner, people will be able to know what you intend to do. Then do it, don't weave around and change your mind except to avoid a certain collision or if you find you have made a bad mistake and there's a good out.

If everyone sees you and can predict what you're going to do, that takes care of 98% of the drivers, who don't want to kill you or teach you a lesson, and who pretty much know traffic law.

Then you only have to deal with the 2% remainder, people who are either asshats or a**holes.

SingingSabre 

I think you're missing the point. You're just seeing the forest for the trees. Don't look so close and try to see the forest.

Yes, as long as they don't hit me, whether or not they see me is a moot point. Drift is drift. I'm going to be visible, but also stay out of their way.

Here's one for you. There's a nice shoulder on the 2 lane road, but you want to be visible. This leads you to employ your patented POWERWEAVE technique and you spy, via mirror, someone coming up. A good distance away, you have time to move. A wave of traffic is coming in the opposite lane, but the guy who was behind you was going faster than you thought. He was being inattentive (of course, his distraction is all your fault as you weren't doing enough to bring cognative conspicuity or whatever) and hits you as he can't swerve into the oncoming traffic, nor can he brake fast enough.

All that is totally unfounded, but just as much as your arguments.

I'm just saying that I'm staying the hell out of motorists ways and still being as visible as possible. If I need to take the lane I will, but I don't abuse it. If they run me down in my lane, that is hardly my fault, as I'm easily seen by even the under-average driver.

San Rensho 

Two simple rules.

1. Whenever a car is approaching you from any direction, assume that they are going to try to run you over, and prepare a contingency plan in your mind to avoid getting hit.

2. Always take the lane. Move over to let cars pass only if it is safe, but be courteous and move over if you can.

wheel

I think these are all good maybe
Don't get hit and don't let them get to you!

I like remove myself from motors and motorists.
Canals, washes, trails, wide 7ft shoulders, motor barriered streets, wide slow streets with humps with no sidewalks. It is all laid out on a grid.

All bicycle lanes should be shoulders, Or only to allow traffic flow (no parked cars) on the right in a seperate travel lane think big city.

markhr

check my signature

Daily Commute

Others have given the basics, but here are a couple of mine:

-No vehicle should have to pass another one twice;
-The following are the Two Golden Myths of cycling in traffic:

1. No bicycle shall slow down a car;
2. No car shall ever slow down a bicycle.

Bekologist

those are your 'myths', Daily commute. what are your commandments?

it can't be just 'no vehicle shall pass one more than once'....what kind of unrealistic scenario is that.

and is helemt head trying to legitimize his wacky, 'weave in front of every car -SIKE-' ---A.K.A. the "PEEK-A-BOO" or the "POWERWEAVE" technique- yet again?

Please, PLEASE, tell me helmet head isn't going to monopolize yet ANOTHER thread with his dishonest and flawed riding advice.

Keith99

Only one.

Do not disconnect your brain and blindly follow commandments.

Helmet Head

Perhaps. I'm always open to this possibility. Of course, if it's happening, I might need some help to see it.

Being "visible" is not enough, thanks to inattentional blindness. What we really want is to be cognitively conspicuous, so that they notice us. One way to significantly increase the likelihood of being cognitively conspicuous, is by being relevant. Ironically, your advice to "stay out of their way" also makes us less relevant to them, and, therefore, decreases the chances that we will be cognitively relevant to them, and increases the chances that they will overlook us. See the bike lane deaths thread for all too many real-world examples of this.

Okay. I just read this, and I think I understand it. But, if you're right, that I'm missing the forest for the trees, perhaps I'm still missing something. How can we know? I have an idea. Here's one for you:
As you can see, I only changed the scenario slightly (all changes in blue) from the one you presented me with. Now, tell me, is the cyclist in either scenario putting himself in any significantly different risk from the cyclist in the other scenario?

Of course, what I'm getting at is that worst case DLLP on a wide road (your scenario) is no worse than ordinary cycling on a narrow road, where cyclists are at the mercy of every motorist approaching from behind. And that's worst case. Since, in most cases, the DLLP cyclist on the wide road will move into the shoulder anyway, the risk is much lower than ordinary cycling on a narrow road. Or am I missing the forest for the trees?

But by staying out of their way you're not being as cognitively conspicuous as possible.

Look, all those overtaking deaths, they almost always involve inadvertent drifts on wide roads. Overtaking collisions on narrow roads are practically unheard of. Why is that? The majority of our rural county roads have 10 foot lanes with no shoulders, and are popular for cycling. It's practically impossible for a motorist to overtake a cyclist on these roads without hitting the cyclist if he does not notice the cyclist; every cyclist must be noticed by every same-direction motorist in order to not be hit on these roads. Since cyclists are virtually never hit by same-direction traffic on these roads (all the fatalities I am aware of on these roads involve oncoming traffic) I contend this is because cyclists on narrow roads are forced to ride in a manner that achieves cognitive conspicuity - they have no choice but to ride in that path of motorist approaching from behind. I'm simply suggesting that we harness the cognitive conspicuity advantages of narrow road cycling on wide roads, by riding in a cognitively conspicuous manner on wide roads, moving aside to be polite when safe and reasonable to do so.

Edit: A couple of years ago I talked to a CHP officer near Big Sur. His beat on coastal Highway 1 was something like Carmel Highlands (just south of Carmel) to almost San Luis Obispo, a very popular and scenic highway. It's very popular for cycling too, despite being quite narrow, having no shoulder, and often being blanketed in heavy fog. In the 5 or so years he had been there, he only knew of three bike crash incidents. In one case a cyclist crashed after taking a corner too fast. In another case someone clipped a 'bent rider turning into a campground (classic right hook). In the third case an RV driver passed a cyclist too closely and hit him, not because he didn't notice him, but because he forgot to take into account the ladder sticking out on the side. In all three cases all the cyclists were fine. In other words, hundreds of cyclists are passed by thousands of motorists on that highway every year, and in every single case, without exception, the overtaking motorist noticed the cyclist and passed him safely (except the RV/ladder guy). The CHP officer cited no cases of motorists not noticing the cyclist up ahead soon enough and running them over because they didn't have time to slow down and couldn't move into the oncoming lane (which is often occupied). Your scenario, though theoretically possible, is, in reality, a fantasy.

Easily "seen" does not mean easily noticed. To be seen you only need sensory conspicuity. To be noticed you need cognitive conspicuity. Good luck with that. I know what I do to achieve it. I ride as if the lane is too narrow to be shared, where I am much more likely to be noticed, except when I need to pull aside temporarily to allow faster traffic to pass.

Bekologist

cognitive conspicuty is more easily achieved by bicyclists using high vis clothing, daytime visible blinkies and slomo triangles, than any nuance in lane position provides.

a cyclist 400 yards away in a dayglow ANSI vest is VERY cognitively conspicuous regardless of lane position.

Helmet Head

Bek, you continue to confuse sensory conspicuity with cognitive conspicuity.

genec

RE HH and the "narrow road theory" posted in #71.

How about this as an alternative... narrow roads are naturally traffic calming... on wide roads or roads with wide shoulders, motorists tend to push their vehicle speeds.

Could these motorists push their vehicle speeds up to a point where control becomes an issue... so they cross the fog line to maintain control, and in doing so, may become involved in collision with a cyclist they saw and were aware of, but due to higher speeds, did not have the ability to properly control their vehicle.

Can you think of any other reason why all these motorists are crossing all these shoulder lines (21 inches)... other than not being able to adequately maintain control of their vehicles.

I know that on my recent visit to northern Cal and hiway 1, I noticed that outside of many of the small towns, the road was marked at 50MPH... but often it was not possible to maintain that speed on that road. So technically, a motorist could be driving at a speed less than the posted speed (thus legally not speeding) but still not have proper control of their vehicle.

Of course the response from a motorist in that situation could be either "I didn't see the cyclist" or "I was driving at less than the speed limit." And in both cases, neither response would be a lie.

Helmet Head

How about this... drive and ride from Ramona to Julian, or go to just about any casino in the east county, and tell me those narrow roads are "naturally traffic calming".

By the way, they do have fog lines, but, for the most part, the shoulders are two inches wide.

As to why drivers cut into the shoulders, it's the same reason they cut into the oncoming lane on left turns - to "smooth" out the curve.

But that's not when they hit cyclists. Usually that happens on straight stretches... inadvertent drift into an unnoticed cyclist in the shoulder.