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Old 09-21-06, 11:25 PM   #1
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I asked the LAB.

Since ILTB refuses to ask the LAB for statistical data on how effective the Bike Ed. courses are I went ahead & did so myself. I just sent them an email asking if there is any statistical data, if there is to please share what it says.

If there is not I suggested a way to obtain the data. By having the people who completed the courses take part in surveys. I suggested the surveys be conducted at 3, 6 & 12 month intervals & that the surveys simply ask how much their cycling has improved & if they feel they are a better & safer cyclist then before they took the courses.

These survey's are not going to be conducted in a controlled enviroment. By that I mean like a food taste test or motor vehicle test drive. I do not think that would be possible, there are too many variables. They will rely on human opinion & emotion, but you know what, that is ok. This way there will be a broad scope of what people think of the courses. The LAB can compile that data & publish it to see how effective or not the courses really are.

If the data prooves the courses are very effective ILTB will just have to accept the fact that the Bike Ed. courses the LAB teaches is doing something good for the cycling community. And that Forester is not as bad as some think he is & he does know what he's talking about.

Frankly I'm getting tired of seeing ILTB's diatribe of crap posted here about the evil's of the LAB & Forester. So I'm doing something about it.

I'll let you know what the LAB says.
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Old 09-22-06, 07:40 AM   #2
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Forgot to ask. What do you think? Good idea, or no?
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Old 09-22-06, 07:44 AM   #3
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I would say LAB is good for everyone especially for people with no motorvehicle knowledge, and young people
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Old 09-22-06, 08:05 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by N_C
Since ILTB refuses to ask the LAB for statistical data on how effective the Bike Ed. courses are I went ahead & did so myself. I just sent them an email asking if there is any statistical data, if there is to please share what it says.


Frankly I'm getting tired of seeing ILTB's diatribe of crap posted here about the evil's of the LAB & Forester. So I'm doing something about it.





Maybe I'm out of the loop, but what are you talking about? What is LAB and ILTB, and where is ILTB's diatribe?
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Old 09-22-06, 08:12 AM   #5
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i believe the disfavor with the pogrom of bicyclist training, in lieu of driver education, law enforcement, or better on-the-tarmac conditions for bicyclists, is that it depends soley on a bicyclist taking a class.

the fractions of a percent of bicyclists taking a course does NOT make bicycling safer. it makes bicyclists as individuals into better riders, hopefully.

i don't think there is anything wrong with becomming a better rider; advancing that cause at the expense of all other cycling advocacy is a grave disservice.
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Old 09-22-06, 08:58 AM   #6
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ILTB has issues, some of them personal, with Forester & the LAB & those that agree with what Forester says & what the LAB stands for, does & teaches. The LAB, Forester & those that take the Bike Ed. courses state that the what is taught in the courses helps cycling, makes people better & safer cyclists. ILTB takes issue with that. Part of the reason is of a personal conflict he had or has with Forester.

You can read his diatribe in various threads here & other places on the internet. Do a search for **** ****. You'll see the conflict he has had with & regarding Forester in other forums & threads.

In this forum, take your pick. Do a search under his user name.

Part of his issue is the perceived lack of statistical data proving what Forester says, what the LAB does & what the Bike Ed. courses teach works to improve cycling & make it safer.

I kindly advised that he put aside his ego. & personal issues & conflicts with Forester & the LAB & work with them to find out if they have the data & if they don't to help them obtain it. I advised he get down off of his soap box & stop *****ing, whining & moaning about it & take positive action to improve things. He more or less told me to **** off.

Honestly I hope to prove his diatribe wrong. In part because of the way he responded to my suggestions. He did/does not have to take the advice & follow it. I don't have a problem with that. But he could have reacted better then he did toward it.

I decided to ask the LAB myself about the data & if it does not exist I suggested how to obtian it.
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Old 09-22-06, 09:00 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bekologist
i believe the disfavor with the pogrom of bicyclist training, in lieu of driver education, law enforcement, or better on-the-tarmac conditions for bicyclists, is that it depends soley on a bicyclist taking a class.

the fractions of a percent of bicyclists taking a course does NOT make bicycling safer. it makes bicyclists as individuals into better riders, hopefully.

i don't think there is anything wrong with becomming a better rider; advancing that cause at the expense of all other cycling advocacy is a grave disservice.
Something people may not realize is the LAB does have a course for motorists as well.

Here is the info. on it: http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/e...s.php#motorist
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Old 09-22-06, 09:01 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by N_C
ILTB has issues, some of them personal, with Forester & the LAB & those that agree with what Forester says & what the LAB stands for, does & teaches.
ILTB just has issues... period. Personally, I think you're investing WAY too much time into him.

*shrug*
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Old 09-22-06, 09:11 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by N_C

I advised he get down off of his soap box & stop *****ing, whining & moaning about it & take positive action to improve things. He more or less told me to **** off.

Honestly I hope to prove his diatribe wrong. In part because of the way he responded to my suggestions. He did/does not have to take the advice & follow it. I don't have a problem with that. But he could have reacted better then he did toward it.
I know 10 and 12 year olds that don't act this childish.
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Old 09-22-06, 09:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by iamtim
ILTB just has issues... period. Personally, I think you're investing WAY too much time into him.

*shrug*
... and NC doesn't?

we've all got "issues"... that's why we're on A&S!!
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Old 09-22-06, 09:32 AM   #11
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Something people may not realize is the LAB does have a course for motorists as well.
yeah, I bet THAT'S real popular....
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Old 09-22-06, 09:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N_C
ILTB has issues, some of them personal, with Forester & the LAB & those that agree with what Forester says & what the LAB stands for, does & teaches. The LAB, Forester & those that take the Bike Ed. courses state that the what is taught in the courses helps cycling, makes people better & safer cyclists. ILTB takes issue with that. Part of the reason is of a personal conflict he had or has with Forester.
Forget Forester and the LAB... the LAB classes are not Forester approved anyway... Forester removed his sanction long ago. Anyone that continues to avoid the LAB classes due to some perceived notion that they are Forester related is just playing dumb.

Let ILTB display his bias about something he knows nothing about.

But above all don't listen to ILTB about LAB classes of which has never attended nor has any personal knowledge.

That would be like me trying to tell you how to use a parachute. (I have no experience in that area what so ever).
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Old 09-22-06, 09:42 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chickenlipz
I know 10 and 12 year olds that don't act this childish.
Sigh... agreed.
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Old 09-22-06, 09:49 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
yeah, I bet THAT'S real popular....
I don't know. If you mean motorists may view it as cyclists telling them how to drive when they think they have the sole right to the roadways & think cyclsits do not belong, then yeah, maybe.
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Old 09-22-06, 10:01 AM   #15
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I don't know. If you mean motorists may view it as cyclists telling them how to drive when they think they have the sole right to the roadways & think cyclsits do not belong, then yeah, maybe.
This is probably true. I think most motorists don't look at it as their problem. I suspect most of them think that if cyclists are unsatisfied with traffic conditions, that they should just choose not to ride. "Why would I take a class on how to drive from bike riders"?

PS: Your sig has a typo. 131545181201519 should be 13154518120151819.
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Old 09-22-06, 10:12 AM   #16
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[QUOTE=recursive]This is probably true. I think most motorists don't look at it as their problem. I suspect most of them think that if cyclists are unsatisfied with traffic conditions, that they should just choose not to ride. "Why would I take a class on how to drive from bike riders"?QUOTE]

In your or anyone else's opinion do think those that take the motorist course are cyclists who want to improve their driving when encountering other cyclists?

One possibility where this course may be put to good use is in driver's ed. classes.
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Old 09-22-06, 10:20 AM   #17
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In your or anyone else's opinion do think those that take the motorist course are cyclists who want to improve their driving when encountering other cyclists?

One possibility where this course may be put to good use is in driver's ed. classes.
Probably. If someone is motivated to take the class, they are probably not the one who needs it.
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Old 09-22-06, 10:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by genec
Let ILTB display his bias about something he knows nothing about.

But above all don't listen to ILTB about LAB classes of which has never attended nor has any personal knowledge.
Is that a fact, Jack? I don't think so. The OP confirmed EXACTLY what I posted; i.e. there currently exists NO record of results for students of LAB training; NO measured good or bad results for those who have ever taken any LAB course, EVER; whether Forester blessed it or not. That means exactly what I have previously posted, no safety record for students before or after, no measurement or even an indication of any change in behavior. PERIOD. And I don't need to sit in LAB class to learn this undisputed fact about an absence of any measured record of accomplishment or improvement for cyclists.

SO tell us, Mr. Educated LAB course graduate, What knowledge did you gain that disputes that fact? And more importantly why should the course be recommended for the general public besides the instructor's good wishes?
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Old 09-22-06, 10:35 AM   #19
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Is that a fact, Jack? I don't think so. The OP confirmed EXACTLY what I posted; i.e. there currently exists NO record of results for students of LAB training; NO measured good or bad results for those who have ever taken any LAB course, EVER; whether Forester blessed it or not. That means exactly what I have previously posted, no safety record for students before or after, no measurement or even an indication of any change in behavior. PERIOD. And I don't need to sit in LAB class to learn this undisputed fact about an absence of any measured record of accomplishment or improvement for cyclists.

SO tell us, Mr. Educated LAB course graduate, What knowledge did you gain that disputes that fact? And more importantly why should the course be recommended for the general public besides the instructor's good wishes?
First of all it is unknown as to whether or not results exist confirming or not that the LAB courses help. That is why I asked the LAB via an email last night. I will find out tonight, hopefully what they say about it. So in effect, neither you, I or anyone else here in the forum know what the results are.

I have not taken the course yet, but thanks for the compliment. I have not gained any knowledge yet, I've yet to take the course. The course should not be recommended because of the instructors wishes. It should be offered & conducted to anyone who wants to become a better cyclist which will hopefully make them a better cyclist.

I hope to find the course enhances my skills as a cyclist. I am going into the class with an open mind about it. I want to learn form it & hope I do. Will there be things taught I already know, probably. Will there be things taught I do not know, I hope so. WIll I find out I'm doing something wrong when riding & this course will tech me differant? Maybe, if so I will correct my on bike behavior.
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Old 09-22-06, 10:43 AM   #20
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Is that a fact, Jack? I don't think so. The OP confirmed EXACTLY what I posted; i.e. there currently exists NO record of results for students of LAB training; NO measured good or bad results for those who have ever taken any LAB course, EVER; whether Forester blessed it or not. That means exactly what I have previously posted, no safety record for students before or after, no measurement or even an indication of any change in behavior. PERIOD. And I don't need to sit in LAB class to learn this undisputed fact about an absence of any measured record of accomplishment or improvement for cyclists.

SO tell us, Mr. Educated LAB course graduate, What knowledge did you gain that disputes that fact? And more importantly why should the course be recommended for the general public besides the instructor's good wishes?
LOL. Well I personally learned how to adjust index shifters, and how to do a few maintenance items that I did not know about on modern bikes. I also learned how to do a high speed turn... which I still practice.

I know the students with me in the Road 1 class learned quite a bit. I felt I could have taught the Road 1 class... so there wasn't much for me to learn there. But the other cyclists learned how and when to shift, where to ride on the streets (including in bike lanes), how to signal, how to merge with traffic and how to make a left hand turn... just to cover a few items.

While you, ILTB may already know this stuff... there are folks out there that do not... folks that want to ride bikes and really have only the most basic knowledge... they can balance and turn. They don't know how to cross RR tracks for instance, or how to change flats, they don't know the first thing about how to operate a quick release. These are all simple practical things that I have learned over many years of cycling... as no doubt you have too...

But some folks don't want to make trial and error mistakes for many years to learn the basics... they want to plunge right in.

Just as one can probably learn to drive a car through observation and trial and error over many years... one can learn faster and better by taking a class.

Do I need statistics to tell me what these students learned... heck no... no more than I need statistics to tell me that I gained knowledge from sailing classes I took. I could not sail before... I could have learned by trial and error... but I took a class and was sailing in no time. What more proof do I need? Statistics... Ha!

Safety record? How about the fact that these folks did not know how to ride anywhere but perhaps on sidewalks or bike paths... and even then questionably... now they have the knowledge of how to ride in traffic, how to shift and how to brake.
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Old 09-22-06, 11:15 AM   #21
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In all fairness, gathering objective statistics to measure effectiveness of a cycling course would be about impossible. It's the same problem that ALL studies on cycling safety have to deal with. There is no consitent reporting of bicycle crashes or injuries. We don't even know how many miles the average cyclist rides let alone how many miles LAB course graduate rides.

Doing surveys, as N_C suggests, are worthless. Asking people if the "feel" safer is not a measure of safety. Unexperienced cyclists often ride down the left side of roads facing traffic because it makes them feel safer. But there is little disagreement that this is one of the most dangerous things you can do.

I will also remind viewers that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". I.e. there doesn't have to be objective evidence of a course's effectivity for it to be beneficial.

BTW, I've never taken a LAB course so have no opinion on it's merits.
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Old 09-22-06, 11:34 AM   #22
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BTW, I've never taken a LAB course so have no opinion on it's merits.
Same as me. My observations is directed at those who proselytize of the "need" for LAB or VC courses to be implemented to solve/mitigate alleged safety problems within the bicycling community, with no evidence/record that it does so.
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Old 09-22-06, 11:52 AM   #23
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Since ILTB refuses to ask the LAB
Work with me ... Who's LAB?
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Old 09-22-06, 11:59 AM   #24
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Same as me. My observations is directed at those who proselytize of the "need" for LAB or VC courses to be implemented to solve/mitigate alleged safety problems within the bicycling community, with no evidence/record that it does so.
Well as the LAB courses teach riding with the flow of traffic and not riding on sidewalks... right away at least one huge problem is taken care of if riders follow those lessons... no more running into wrong way cyclists when riding on the roads.

That is some of the simple common sense stuff taught in LAB classes that some riders otherwise don't seem to "get."

I was riding Wednesday when a very nice looking young lady started keeping pace with me... except she was on the other side of the road... and approached each intersection with impunity... I cringed watching this situation as no motorist would have looked to see if she was there... and she did not slow down.

If common sense alone or the arrows on the bike lanes did not tell her... perhaps a class that points out the disadvantages of wrong way riding might have given her some guidance.
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Old 09-22-06, 12:02 PM   #25
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Work with me ... Who's LAB?
ILTB is I-like-to-bike... who apparently does not believe in any form of teaching... or expects it all to have documented statistics to account for any student progress. (I suppose student testing is just not enough).

LAB is the League of American Bicyclists. Found here:
http://www.bikeleague.org/
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