Bekologist

I don't drink.

i've told al before, his bike lanes are bad. he should take to his city planners, get those up to snuff.

Bekologist

i think drivers are not looking thru a periscope when they drive.

telling bicyclists they should ignore safe road stripes, signs or signals is unsafe advice and flawed advocacy.

Bekologist

if a lane position is safe to ride in during the presence of traffic, what makes that lane position unsafe in the absense of traffic? a safe bicyclist should never ride in an unsafe lane position, correct?

what is unsafe when there isn't traffic, if a lane position is safe when there is traffic?

noisebeam

So I should not be in any of the pictured bike lanes, because they are bad.
To move this to a constructive conversation, I would like to understand specifically for each bike lane (by Row/Column) why the BL is 'bad'

(shift click on this link and you will have those pics in a different window making it easy to reference when writing comments)

Al

noisebeam

Here is my take on why specific BLs in images are 'bad'

Row 1:
C1: In absense of RTOL, BL stripe must end 300' before any intersection
C2: A RTOL would not be appropriate for the 'driveway' type intersection just prior to the light controlled intersection. In this case the BL stripe must end 300' before this intersection
C3: I am going straight or left and the BL to the left of the RTOL positions me in the wrong place for my destination (Bek, if your gonna only take a second, tell me what is wrong with this BL)
Row 2:
C1: No BL. Note this is a WOL and my left lane positioning is required to make clear my destination and pass right turning cars in lane ahead on their left. Also increases visibiliity to opposing direction drivers.
C2: No BL. Note this is also a WOL to the left of a RTOL. I position myself behind the vehicle in lane ahead, instead of using 3' space to their right.
C3: BL puts me out of sight for the possible right turn just over the crest of this shallow hill.
Row 3:
C1: No BL
C2: No BL
C3: BL striping should be removed 300' before any intersection
Row 4:
C1: There are several possible RTs across intersection, being in BL could result in Right Hook. No BL stripe 300' before intersection.
C2: BL closed.

Al

Helmet Head

By using a process of elimination that leaves ...

Bekologist

yep al, just like safe riding techniques that don't require drunken sailor swerving, you don't ride in an unsafe lane position. talk to your city council, your bike lanes are atrocious.

The Human Car

One of my side projects is to keep bugging the states motorcyclist safety guy to include cyclists as well as motorcyclists in their safety messages. I agree that there is a lot of overlap between the two modes of travel.

FWIW What seems to work well for me is when I hear of a cyclist complain about being buzzed or cut off I recommend that they move two feet to the left of their current riding position for that stretch of road. I feel once people start to realize that there is a relationship between how they ride and how others drive around them that they become more cognizant of upcoming road conditions and will automatically adjust their lane position. Since we love acronyms how about MTFTYLS (Move Two Feet To Your Left Stupid.) I feel this lets cyclists experiment and come to a better understanding of the why behind certain lane positions and there relationship to current traffic conditions.

I like this as you pointed out that it is not just the gutter bunnies that should move over its other cyclists who have already made the transition to position #1 and then remain static in that position. While they may notice some improvement over all, some roads may still have some issues, if so then MTFTYLS into position #2. If you don’t have any issues then stay in your current riding position. Using this methodology in rare cases I will be in the left tire mark in position #3 (as previously noted) after awhile road condition variables start to congeal into an understandable pattern that is appropriate for your riding speed and the routes you travel.

Overstressing that one road variable such as sightlines should dictate your lane position is not always helpful. For example I live off of a tree lined curvy road that follows a river. After a right hand bend in the road I’m out of sight of traffic behind me. This is really not much of a concern because (a) traffic speed is such that if an overtaking motorist will overtake me in this “blind” area they will be more or less be following me around the curve so I will not really catch a passing motorist by surprise and (b) there is extra width on the road and motorist will be on the left hand side of the road as it bends to left in the “blind” area so it really does not matter if they have seen me or not as I will be out of their way. I could try and explain all the physics and engineering principles involved on the differences of my previously noted lane position on the left and this road position on the right but I think most cyclists will have a better understanding by me just saying the first example I got buzzed and in this case I have never been buzzed.

sbhikes

Please tell us again how adjusting your lane position and using good velotransit accomodations are mutually exclusive? I'm afraid I'm not doing it right.

The Human Car

Is that addressed to me? If it is to me, it sounds like your “good velotransit accommodations” do not have any issues so you are fine and no need to adjust your lane position.

Dchiefransom

ON roads with bike lanes, I ride in the bike lane.

sbhikes

Sorry no, it was addressed to the author of this:

noisebeam

I appreciate that, can you tell me what is specifically atrocious, or do you agree with all points I made per image?

What about R1C3? I have seen several images from where you live that you posted where you tout this layout of BL (BL to left of RTOL) as an example of an excellent velotransit facility. What is different about the one in the image I posted?

Also why is it that the LAB awarded the city where all these pictures were taken a Silver Level Bicycle Friendly Award, primarily due to the "safe bicycle accomidations and facilities"? Are your standards higher than LAB? Not many other cities get this high an award.

Al

Bekologist

al, this thread is about HOW to ride in a lane, NOT your bad bike lanes.

al, choose your lane position safely, always.

choose your lane to make the most sense, and also following any roadway rules, regs, striping and signs, etc.

that means using a specific lane if it is safe for use.

ignoring roadway stripes and riding like a drunken sailor soley to up ones visibility and cognification to drivers is unsafe, illegal in many areas, and exponentially more dangerous than simply shooting a consistent line of "as far left as is safe, as far right is as practicable."

telling bicyclists to ignore roadway stripes, signage, etc, is flawed advocacy.

This is not a damnation of adjusting ones' lane position for actual hazards, but the drunken sailor swerve technique espoused by helmet head is a really bad, flawed, possibly illegal advocacy platform.

noisebeam

Do you think in the short term before these bad BLs where I live are removed that good local advocacy would be to teach cyclist to ignore the BL stripe?

By the way, I did not go out of my way to find example of bad bike lanes to post images of. These images were on my hard drive for a variety of reasons (some to show wrong way sidewalk cyclist for example, others as example of BL to left of RTOL). I encounter these BL type of BL designs near continuously durning the parts of my 8mi commute that are BL striped (about 4-6mi depending on route I take). There is a 4mi stretch that has a WOL instead of a BL and that is the best section to ride!
So yes this thread is about riding on roads with BLs and I've discussed how I do it and shown examples. Since there are so many intersections in the suburban->urban area I ride, there is rarely a safe place to use the BL even when there is same direction traffic.

So the other question for you and others. If these are bad BLs, how should they be redesigned to be good, or is the only good solution to remove them?

Al

Bekologist

al, my point is, choose your lane position safely.

choose it as far left as is safe, as far right as is practicable.

ride according to the rules and regs.

ride according to signage, speed limits and road striping.

if a lane is safe, ride in it.

do not advocate to ignore a safe bike lane road position. it is flawed advocacy to teach riders to ignore a safe road position.

swerving back and forth between lane positions without reason other than overtaking traffic complicates all travel and is not the correct message or method to advocate.

shooting a consistent, dynamic line is safer than swerving between lanes.

riding and ignoring roadway stripes is unsafe.

flawed method, bad advocacy. ride and use safe lanes. choose a consistant, dynamic position of 'as far left as is safe, as far right as is practical'

when a lane position becomes unsafe, leave the lane.

do not ignore bike lanes if they are otherwise safe to ride in.

leaving a lane to provide adequate clearance or better sight lines when required is not the same as holding a travel lane until drivers behind you honk or slow down.

noisebeam

Do you realize that your message is not consistent? how can I both stay right and use the lane when safe and leave the lane when usafe without swerving back and forth?

Anyway, you are rambling on with your typical thoughtless buzzphrases on how to ride

Can you instead please address the half dozen or so questions I asked you in the last few posts I made. Otherwise I take it as you are dodging the questions, the specifics because you know that cyclists must quite often leave even well designed bike lanes, that you know that the images I posted are fairy typical BLs as installed across cities in the US, that you know that organized BL advocacy is about increasing miles of lanes put, not about making safe cyclist accomidations.

Al

Bekologist

actually, the trend in bike accomodations is better lanes and more of them, actually.
swerving back and forth in front of every car, in some attempt at conspicuity, when the lane position to the right is already safe, is what is dangerous.

bike lanes aren't going away, and bike method has to endorse using these lanes when they are safe for use, just like the use of any other lanes on a road.

failing to advocate proper use of safe roadway facilities is flawed advocacy.