Community brainstorm: alternative names for bike lanes
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Originally Posted by genec
What is the speed delta between you and the motor traffic as you ascend that hill from Sorrento Valley Blvd (VSP BTW is 50MPH as you go north, 60MPH as you go south).
A distracted motorist will close on you much faster (and thus have less time to react) at 50 or 60MPH than at 40 or 45MPH... it may only be a second or two difference, but that may be all YOU need.
Now the flip side is with a parallel freeway, why does any motorist need to drive at freeway speeds on a surface street? Further, the speed was set long before all the apartments, businesses, and stoplights in that area were put in... from a practical sense alone, only the most powerful cars can even hit 50MPH between those lights... yet the road is marked at ludicrous speed. Rather than ask "why" as in "why not that speed..." ask "why" as in "why that speed at all."
I have yet to hear a decent justification for high speed surface streets that are paralleled by freeways. Freeways offer the ability to access the same locations at high speeds and in a controlled manner... parallel surface streets should be speed limited to serve those that cannot access the freeways. (pedestrians, cyclists, heavy loads, etc.)
A distracted motorist will close on you much faster (and thus have less time to react) at 50 or 60MPH than at 40 or 45MPH... it may only be a second or two difference, but that may be all YOU need.
Now the flip side is with a parallel freeway, why does any motorist need to drive at freeway speeds on a surface street? Further, the speed was set long before all the apartments, businesses, and stoplights in that area were put in... from a practical sense alone, only the most powerful cars can even hit 50MPH between those lights... yet the road is marked at ludicrous speed. Rather than ask "why" as in "why not that speed..." ask "why" as in "why that speed at all."
I have yet to hear a decent justification for high speed surface streets that are paralleled by freeways. Freeways offer the ability to access the same locations at high speeds and in a controlled manner... parallel surface streets should be speed limited to serve those that cannot access the freeways. (pedestrians, cyclists, heavy loads, etc.)
As for the speed deltas, we're probably going 15-20 up that hill in a group, maybe closer to 12-15 when I'm solo.
But the group is more visible than slow contruction vehicle would be there, and we're usually oozing out of the bike lane into half of the rightmost traffic lane (big deal, there are two more same-dir lanes).
When I'm solo I monitor for traffic to the rear as always and move aside into the bike lane as they approach.
Closing speed and not noticing is not an issue.
Is there any evidence for correlation between speed limits and crash incidence and/or severity? That is, is there any basis for the claim that lower posted speed limits make things safer?
#27
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The justification for the higher speeds is increased traffic throughput to all the new housing up there.
As for the speed deltas, we're probably going 15-20 up that hill in a group, maybe closer to 12-15 when I'm solo.
But the group is more visible than slow contruction vehicle would be there, and we're usually oozing out of the bike lane into half of the rightmost traffic lane (big deal, there are two more same-dir lanes).
When I'm solo I monitor for traffic to the rear as always and move aside into the bike lane as they approach.
Closing speed and not noticing is not an issue.
Is there any evidence for correlation between speed limits and crash incidence and/or severity? That is, is there any basis for the claim that lower posted speed limits make things safer?
Are there any claims for less crash severity at lower speeds... OK, simple test. Let me crash my bike into you at 5MPH and then again at 20MPH (the latter is still not even the speed delta you claim for your 20MPH climb with 50MPH traffic) and let's see if you notice any difference in the severity of the impact.
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Originally Posted by genec
Yeah, right... the speed limits were established well before any of that housing existed... and in the housing areas it is 45MPH, except near the school on Carmel Mountain Road, where the speed limit has actually been recently LOWERED to 40MPH. So "to support housing density..." Wrong Guess... try again.
I find it very hard to believe you ascend that hill at 15MPH or even close to 20... but that is your claim so I let it lie.
Are there any claims for less crash severity at lower speeds... OK, simple test. Let me crash my bike into you at 5MPH and then again at 20MPH (the latter is still not even the speed delta you claim for your 20MPH climb with 50MPH traffic) and let's see if you notice any difference in the severity of the impact.
But at lower speeds drivers also might be less alert, and, so more likely to hit someone.
Personally, I prefer to let nature takes its course. People tend to drive at reasonable speeds given good designs, and this road seems to qualify.
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Originally Posted by N_C
Ok, this has got to be satire. Of that I have no doubt.
What bicyclist in his right mind would go slower then 15 mph if they're able to go faster? How stupid is that? Plus how the hell would the speed be monitored? Radar guns can not detect bicycles very well, if at all. Not all bicycles are equipped with computers, nor should they be required to. This would make it so they would have to be. Do you know how much public outcry this would cause amongts the cycling community?
Then again this is satire so who the **** cares?
What bicyclist in his right mind would go slower then 15 mph if they're able to go faster? How stupid is that? Plus how the hell would the speed be monitored? Radar guns can not detect bicycles very well, if at all. Not all bicycles are equipped with computers, nor should they be required to. This would make it so they would have to be. Do you know how much public outcry this would cause amongts the cycling community?
Then again this is satire so who the **** cares?
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Ok back to reality for a second, ladies and gents...what makes you think speed limits for bikes, or anything else for that matter, will be any more enforced, or enforcable, than the current posted speed limits on the roadways? How about addressing the root cause - inability/unwillingness to enforce the laws we have before trying to create new laws and new paradigms.
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#32
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How about "Express Lane to reward Bike Commuters"?
(Yeah, I know, shame on me for contributing to HH's waste of bandwidth, but that's really how I see bike lanes, and how they really are to anyone without a chip on their shoulders.)
(Yeah, I know, shame on me for contributing to HH's waste of bandwidth, but that's really how I see bike lanes, and how they really are to anyone without a chip on their shoulders.)
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Originally Posted by patc
How about "Express Lane to reward Bike Commuters"?
(Yeah, I know, shame on me for contributing to HH's waste of bandwidth, but that's really how I see bike lanes, and how they really are to anyone without a chip on their shoulders.)
(Yeah, I know, shame on me for contributing to HH's waste of bandwidth, but that's really how I see bike lanes, and how they really are to anyone without a chip on their shoulders.)
In southern cal, bike lanes are mostly (not entirely) about getting cyclists out of the way of faster motorists.
Very rarely are they useful as express lanes for passing motorists, much less as express lanes where motorists can be passed safely at a reasonable cycling speed.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
As to N_C and SingingSabre, I think you guys have reading comprehension problems.
Argu....er...."debating" your whacky ideas is like pulling teeth from an angry alligator. You vehemently call any argument anybody presents as anti-cyclist, misinformed, or you call the person themselves incapable of comprehending facts. That's why I'm leaving it be.
I'm sad to see you back, HH. I was really quite enjoying the discussions taking place in your absense. I'll be begrudgingly reading the posts now, waiting for the anti-bike lane "advocacy" to start back up. Oh...wait, it already has.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
15 MPH is way too fast for riding in a door zone, and even a foot or two outside of the doorzone.
Just friendly advice....
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Ok back to reality for a second, ladies and gents...what makes you think speed limits for bikes, or anything else for that matter, will be any more enforced, or enforcable, than the current posted speed limits on the roadways? How about addressing the root cause - inability/unwillingness to enforce the laws we have before trying to create new laws and new paradigms.
What a concept....
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
So can I, but is it appropriate to be riding faster than 15 mph as close to the edge of a road as a bike lane or sharrow normally positions a cyclist? .........
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Whether you're a car or bike, if you're going 15 or slower, you should be allowed in the road margin.
Whether you're a car or bike, if you're traveling faster than 15, you should be to the left of the margin.
Whether you're a car or bike, if you're traveling faster than 15, you should be to the left of the margin.
First off, bike lanes are not necessarily 'in the margins.' or always position riders close to the edge of the road.
Many bike lanes are bufferred from the road edge, buffered from parking and accomodated at intersections, position the average rider further from the edge of the roadway than simple wide outside lanes alone, and provide a better lane position leading up to free accomodated intersections.
the intent of hh appears to actually be marginalizing unduly the utility, value and actual physicality of roadway space granted by velotransit lanes in a well accomodated roadway network.
velotransit lanes can be well provided, integrated with roadway striping patterns, and allow preferential travel by bicyclists.
speed limits, or allowing cars to drive in them willy-nilly is a disenfranchisment of the value of velotransit integrated with a community roadway network.
If you want a new name for a bike lane, call it a velotransit lane.
Last edited by Bekologist; 12-19-06 at 11:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by eubi
I never said I ride in the door zone. You assume too much, and that's why people get so angry at you.
Just friendly advice....
Just friendly advice....
Bike lanes and sharrows where I ride are typically 12-14 ft from the curb. You know, the door zone.
And all of this was in the context of you, apparently, challenging my assertion that riding at speeds above 15 mph in bike lanes is not a good idea.If you're riding outside of the bike lane, what is your point?
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Originally Posted by chipcom
HH, have you met N_C? He's one subject that I bet you, ILTB, Bek I and others who usually don't agree on much of anything, will all be in agreement about! Welcome back.
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Thanks for the advice. Sorry for misunderstanding. But, hopefully, when you reread your own words, perhaps you'll understand why I assumed you were saying you rode in the door zone:
If you're riding outside of the bike lane, what is your point?
Bike lanes and sharrows where I ride are typically 12-14 ft from the curb. You know, the door zone.
And all of this was in the context of you, apparently, challenging my assertion that riding at speeds above 15 mph in bike lanes is not a good idea.If you're riding outside of the bike lane, what is your point?
I wouldn't want speed limits placed on a bike lane, no matter where they are.
In the end, I believe there are too many different riding conditions, even in the same location but at different times, for a catch-all solution. You have to constantly assess possible hazards and deal with them accordingly. I think we agree on this.
Now my head hurts...
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HH, not for nothing my friend & this is not meant to be an insult, flaming or trolling. But your posts about BL's are getting as bad as mine about helmets. This is turning into what others have called a "dead horse" issue. I'm not saying to stop posting about them, I won't stop posting about helmets if I feel it is appropriate, I imagine you feel the same way.
just expect satrical comments from me & others as well as serious comments similar to what I have received about helmet threads.
And BTW the second part of my first response to this thread is meant to be serious. Why do that & why require speedometers on bicycles?
just expect satrical comments from me & others as well as serious comments similar to what I have received about helmet threads.
And BTW the second part of my first response to this thread is meant to be serious. Why do that & why require speedometers on bicycles?
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Originally Posted by N_C
...why require speedometers on bicycles?
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 12-20-06 at 10:21 AM.
#46
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Some ideas:
- "Death strip"
- "Broken glass trough"
- "Door zone"
- "Parking lot"
- "Path to salvation"
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As much as I prefer the main travel lanes to bike lanes around here, I would be very much against any kind of speed limit for them.
Honestly, though, Helmet Head, I don't see any chance of such a thing happening anyway.
Honestly, though, Helmet Head, I don't see any chance of such a thing happening anyway.
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#48
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What are bike lanes? I've never seen one.
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Originally Posted by recursive
Some ideas:
- "Death strip"
- "Broken glass trough"
- "Door zone"
- "Parking lot"
- "Path to salvation"
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
#50
Portland Fred
I think "shoulder" is just fine. Rules can define who belongs there and when.
"Emergency lane" might be OK.
I don't like calling anything "bike lane." Any bit of space is useful, but if you call it a shoulder or emergency lane, people will think it's a great idea. Call it a bike lane, and the cycle haters go nuts.
"Emergency lane" might be OK.
I don't like calling anything "bike lane." Any bit of space is useful, but if you call it a shoulder or emergency lane, people will think it's a great idea. Call it a bike lane, and the cycle haters go nuts.