Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Advocacy & Safety
Reload this Page >

Community brainstorm: alternative names for bike lanes

Notices
Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

Community brainstorm: alternative names for bike lanes

Old 12-19-06, 05:28 PM
  #26  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
What is the speed delta between you and the motor traffic as you ascend that hill from Sorrento Valley Blvd (VSP BTW is 50MPH as you go north, 60MPH as you go south).

A distracted motorist will close on you much faster (and thus have less time to react) at 50 or 60MPH than at 40 or 45MPH... it may only be a second or two difference, but that may be all YOU need.

Now the flip side is with a parallel freeway, why does any motorist need to drive at freeway speeds on a surface street? Further, the speed was set long before all the apartments, businesses, and stoplights in that area were put in... from a practical sense alone, only the most powerful cars can even hit 50MPH between those lights... yet the road is marked at ludicrous speed. Rather than ask "why" as in "why not that speed..." ask "why" as in "why that speed at all."

I have yet to hear a decent justification for high speed surface streets that are paralleled by freeways. Freeways offer the ability to access the same locations at high speeds and in a controlled manner... parallel surface streets should be speed limited to serve those that cannot access the freeways. (pedestrians, cyclists, heavy loads, etc.)
The justification for the higher speeds is increased traffic throughput to all the new housing up there.

As for the speed deltas, we're probably going 15-20 up that hill in a group, maybe closer to 12-15 when I'm solo.
But the group is more visible than slow contruction vehicle would be there, and we're usually oozing out of the bike lane into half of the rightmost traffic lane (big deal, there are two more same-dir lanes).

When I'm solo I monitor for traffic to the rear as always and move aside into the bike lane as they approach.

Closing speed and not noticing is not an issue.

Is there any evidence for correlation between speed limits and crash incidence and/or severity? That is, is there any basis for the claim that lower posted speed limits make things safer?
Helmet Head is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 06:05 PM
  #27  
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,532 Times in 3,158 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
The justification for the higher speeds is increased traffic throughput to all the new housing up there.
Yeah, right... the speed limits were established well before any of that housing existed... and in the housing areas it is 45MPH, except near the school on Carmel Mountain Road, where the speed limit has actually been recently LOWERED to 40MPH. So "to support housing density..." Wrong Guess... try again.


As for the speed deltas, we're probably going 15-20 up that hill in a group, maybe closer to 12-15 when I'm solo.
But the group is more visible than slow contruction vehicle would be there, and we're usually oozing out of the bike lane into half of the rightmost traffic lane (big deal, there are two more same-dir lanes).

When I'm solo I monitor for traffic to the rear as always and move aside into the bike lane as they approach.

Closing speed and not noticing is not an issue.

Is there any evidence for correlation between speed limits and crash incidence and/or severity? That is, is there any basis for the claim that lower posted speed limits make things safer?
I find it very hard to believe you ascend that hill at 15MPH or even close to 20... but that is your claim so I let it lie.

Are there any claims for less crash severity at lower speeds... OK, simple test. Let me crash my bike into you at 5MPH and then again at 20MPH (the latter is still not even the speed delta you claim for your 20MPH climb with 50MPH traffic) and let's see if you notice any difference in the severity of the impact.
genec is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 06:26 PM
  #28  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by genec
Yeah, right... the speed limits were established well before any of that housing existed... and in the housing areas it is 45MPH, except near the school on Carmel Mountain Road, where the speed limit has actually been recently LOWERED to 40MPH. So "to support housing density..." Wrong Guess... try again.
Fine. The road is reasonably safe at the higher speeds. It's straight, there's very little cross traffic... what's the problem?


I find it very hard to believe you ascend that hill at 15MPH or even close to 20... but that is your claim so I let it lie.
I don't have a specific memory of checking the speed on that hill, but I know we go about 20 on El Camino Real up from Carmel Valley Road to Del Mar Heights, which seems like a similar grade, and it always amazes me.

Are there any claims for less crash severity at lower speeds... OK, simple test. Let me crash my bike into you at 5MPH and then again at 20MPH (the latter is still not even the speed delta you claim for your 20MPH climb with 50MPH traffic) and let's see if you notice any difference in the severity of the impact.
That's an answer to a question different from what I asked. Obviously, getting hit at higher speeds is worse than getting hit at lower speeds.

But at lower speeds drivers also might be less alert, and, so more likely to hit someone.

Personally, I prefer to let nature takes its course. People tend to drive at reasonable speeds given good designs, and this road seems to qualify.
Helmet Head is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 06:44 PM
  #29  
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by N_C
Ok, this has got to be satire. Of that I have no doubt.

What bicyclist in his right mind would go slower then 15 mph if they're able to go faster? How stupid is that? Plus how the hell would the speed be monitored? Radar guns can not detect bicycles very well, if at all. Not all bicycles are equipped with computers, nor should they be required to. This would make it so they would have to be. Do you know how much public outcry this would cause amongts the cycling community?

Then again this is satire so who the **** cares?
HH, have you met N_C? He's one subject that I bet you, ILTB, Bek I and others who usually don't agree on much of anything, will all be in agreement about! Welcome back.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 06:49 PM
  #30  
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Ok back to reality for a second, ladies and gents...what makes you think speed limits for bikes, or anything else for that matter, will be any more enforced, or enforcable, than the current posted speed limits on the roadways? How about addressing the root cause - inability/unwillingness to enforce the laws we have before trying to create new laws and new paradigms.
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 07:00 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 14,277
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
The dead sexy lane.....with a picture of fat bastard rubbing his nips drawn onto the lane.
DataJunkie is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 07:01 PM
  #32  
Dubito ergo sum.
 
patc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ottawa, ON, Canada
Posts: 1,735

Bikes: Bessie.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
How about "Express Lane to reward Bike Commuters"?

(Yeah, I know, shame on me for contributing to HH's waste of bandwidth, but that's really how I see bike lanes, and how they really are to anyone without a chip on their shoulders.)
patc is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 07:12 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 3,710
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 118 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 61 Posts
Simple. Cycling is patriotic, so call them "Freedom Lanes."

Paul
PaulH is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 07:23 PM
  #34  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by patc
How about "Express Lane to reward Bike Commuters"?

(Yeah, I know, shame on me for contributing to HH's waste of bandwidth, but that's really how I see bike lanes, and how they really are to anyone without a chip on their shoulders.)
I'm guessing you have a lot of dense/slow urban traffic in Ottawa?

In southern cal, bike lanes are mostly (not entirely) about getting cyclists out of the way of faster motorists.
Very rarely are they useful as express lanes for passing motorists, much less as express lanes where motorists can be passed safely at a reasonable cycling speed.
Helmet Head is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 08:23 PM
  #35  
BF's Level 12 Wizard
 
SingingSabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Secret mobile lair
Posts: 1,425

Bikes: Diamondback Sorrento turned Xtracycle commuter

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
As to N_C and SingingSabre, I think you guys have reading comprehension problems.
While my comment was barely on topic for this thread, this one isn't. However, I'm just going to leave it be.

Argu....er...."debating" your whacky ideas is like pulling teeth from an angry alligator. You vehemently call any argument anybody presents as anti-cyclist, misinformed, or you call the person themselves incapable of comprehending facts. That's why I'm leaving it be.

I'm sad to see you back, HH. I was really quite enjoying the discussions taking place in your absense. I'll be begrudgingly reading the posts now, waiting for the anti-bike lane "advocacy" to start back up. Oh...wait, it already has.
__________________
Shameless plugs:
Work
Photography
Vanity
Originally Posted by Bklyn
Obviously, the guy's like a 12th level white wizard or something. His mere presence is a danger to mortals.
SingingSabre is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 09:02 PM
  #36  
No Rocket Surgeon
 
eubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Corona and S. El Monte, CA
Posts: 1,648

Bikes: Cannondale D600, Dahon Speed T7

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
15 MPH is way too fast for riding in a door zone, and even a foot or two outside of the doorzone.
I never said I ride in the door zone. You assume too much, and that's why people get so angry at you.

Just friendly advice....
__________________
Fewer Cars, more handlebars!
eubi is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 09:05 PM
  #37  
RacingBear
 
UmneyDurak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 9,053
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 280 Post(s)
Liked 68 Times in 36 Posts
Those things that VC zealots ***** and whine about.
UmneyDurak is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 09:45 PM
  #38  
Banned.
 
galen_52657's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Towson, MD
Posts: 4,020

Bikes: 2001 Look KG 241, 1989 Specialized Stump Jumper Comp, 1986 Gatane Performanc

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
Ok back to reality for a second, ladies and gents...what makes you think speed limits for bikes, or anything else for that matter, will be any more enforced, or enforcable, than the current posted speed limits on the roadways? How about addressing the root cause - inability/unwillingness to enforce the laws we have before trying to create new laws and new paradigms.

What a concept....
galen_52657 is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 11:10 PM
  #39  
totally louche
 
Bekologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023

Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
So can I, but is it appropriate to be riding faster than 15 mph as close to the edge of a road as a bike lane or sharrow normally positions a cyclist? .........

Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Whether you're a car or bike, if you're going 15 or slower, you should be allowed in the road margin.
Whether you're a car or bike, if you're traveling faster than 15, you should be to the left of the margin.

First off, bike lanes are not necessarily 'in the margins.' or always position riders close to the edge of the road.

Many bike lanes are bufferred from the road edge, buffered from parking and accomodated at intersections, position the average rider further from the edge of the roadway than simple wide outside lanes alone, and provide a better lane position leading up to free accomodated intersections.

the intent of hh appears to actually be marginalizing unduly the utility, value and actual physicality of roadway space granted by velotransit lanes in a well accomodated roadway network.


velotransit lanes can be well provided, integrated with roadway striping patterns, and allow preferential travel by bicyclists.

speed limits, or allowing cars to drive in them willy-nilly is a disenfranchisment of the value of velotransit integrated with a community roadway network.

If you want a new name for a bike lane, call it a velotransit lane.

Last edited by Bekologist; 12-19-06 at 11:57 PM.
Bekologist is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 11:21 PM
  #40  
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Helmet Head's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: San Diego
Posts: 13,075
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by eubi
I never said I ride in the door zone. You assume too much, and that's why people get so angry at you.

Just friendly advice....
Thanks for the advice. Sorry for misunderstanding. But, hopefully, when you reread your own words, perhaps you'll understand why I assumed you were saying you rode in the door zone:
Bike lanes and sharrows where I ride are typically 12-14 ft from the curb. You know, the door zone.
And all of this was in the context of you, apparently, challenging my assertion that riding at speeds above 15 mph in bike lanes is not a good idea.

If you're riding outside of the bike lane, what is your point?
Helmet Head is offline  
Old 12-19-06, 11:45 PM
  #41  
Senior Member
 
PsySal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 90

Bikes: Late 80's Miele road racing bike, 2005 Norco Mountaineer

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The margins.
PsySal is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 12:24 AM
  #42  
N_C
Banned.
 
N_C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bannation, forever.
Posts: 2,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by chipcom
HH, have you met N_C? He's one subject that I bet you, ILTB, Bek I and others who usually don't agree on much of anything, will all be in agreement about! Welcome back.
Did hell just freeze over? Cause I swear you just paid a compliment.
N_C is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 06:43 AM
  #43  
No Rocket Surgeon
 
eubi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Corona and S. El Monte, CA
Posts: 1,648

Bikes: Cannondale D600, Dahon Speed T7

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Thanks for the advice. Sorry for misunderstanding. But, hopefully, when you reread your own words, perhaps you'll understand why I assumed you were saying you rode in the door zone:
Bike lanes and sharrows where I ride are typically 12-14 ft from the curb. You know, the door zone.
And all of this was in the context of you, apparently, challenging my assertion that riding at speeds above 15 mph in bike lanes is not a good idea.

If you're riding outside of the bike lane, what is your point?
I was referring to the physical placement of the bike lanes where I ride. They are in the door zone, but rarely are there any cars there. I meant it to be a relative term, since the lanes you referred to are bordered by the curb..

I wouldn't want speed limits placed on a bike lane, no matter where they are.

In the end, I believe there are too many different riding conditions, even in the same location but at different times, for a catch-all solution. You have to constantly assess possible hazards and deal with them accordingly. I think we agree on this.

Now my head hurts...
__________________
Fewer Cars, more handlebars!
eubi is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 09:29 AM
  #44  
N_C
Banned.
 
N_C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Bannation, forever.
Posts: 2,887
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
HH, not for nothing my friend & this is not meant to be an insult, flaming or trolling. But your posts about BL's are getting as bad as mine about helmets. This is turning into what others have called a "dead horse" issue. I'm not saying to stop posting about them, I won't stop posting about helmets if I feel it is appropriate, I imagine you feel the same way.

just expect satrical comments from me & others as well as serious comments similar to what I have received about helmet threads.

And BTW the second part of my first response to this thread is meant to be serious. Why do that & why require speedometers on bicycles?
N_C is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 09:46 AM
  #45  
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,950

Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,517 Times in 1,031 Posts
Originally Posted by N_C
...why require speedometers on bicycles?
I know. I know. Because all Real Cyclists have a cycling computer (with speed readout) anyways; and enactment of this "brainstorm" would be a useful tool for HH-types to hassle those cyclists who are not Real Cyclists and might use/prefer bike lanes.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 12-20-06 at 10:21 AM.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 09:54 AM
  #46  
Geosynchronous Falconeer
 
recursive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,312

Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Some ideas:
  • "Death strip"
  • "Broken glass trough"
  • "Door zone"
  • "Parking lot"
  • "Path to salvation"
__________________
Bring the pain.
recursive is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 11:17 AM
  #47  
Sumanitu taka owaci
 
LittleBigMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 8,945
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
As much as I prefer the main travel lanes to bike lanes around here, I would be very much against any kind of speed limit for them.

Honestly, though, Helmet Head, I don't see any chance of such a thing happening anyway.
__________________
No worries
LittleBigMan is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 11:21 AM
  #48  
No Talent Assclown
 
Falkon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Southern US :(
Posts: 1,319

Bikes: 1984 Ciocc Designer '84, Custom Columbus EL Keith Anderson -- Ultegra/DA 10sp mix, 2019 Trek Checkpoint AL All-arounder

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 87 Post(s)
Liked 27 Times in 23 Posts
What are bike lanes? I've never seen one.
__________________
Fällt der Pfarrer in den Mist, lacht der Bauer bis er pisst.
Falkon is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 11:54 AM
  #49  
Infamous Member
 
chipcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 24,360

Bikes: Surly Big Dummy, Fuji World, 80ish Bianchi

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by recursive
Some ideas:
  • "Death strip"
  • "Broken glass trough"
  • "Door zone"
  • "Parking lot"
  • "Path to salvation"
Hershey Highway?
__________________
"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
chipcom is offline  
Old 12-20-06, 12:04 PM
  #50  
Portland Fred
 
banerjek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 11,548

Bikes: Custom Winter, Challenge Seiran SL, Fuji Team Pro, Cattrike Road/Velokit, РOS hybrid

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 232 Post(s)
Liked 53 Times in 35 Posts
I think "shoulder" is just fine. Rules can define who belongs there and when.

"Emergency lane" might be OK.

I don't like calling anything "bike lane." Any bit of space is useful, but if you call it a shoulder or emergency lane, people will think it's a great idea. Call it a bike lane, and the cycle haters go nuts.
banerjek is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.