Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26
  1. #1
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    West Michigan
    My Bikes
    Old Giant Rincon
    Posts
    1,191
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    LESS regulation = safer roads

    Great article about how the Dutch get it. Meaning, safer roads come from road systems that are well designed not just regulated to heck.

    LESS regulation = safer roads caution: it is a video article and probably not dial-up friendly
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

    OttawaCountyDSA.com

  2. #2
    Fattest Thin Man Az B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Directly above the center of the earth
    My Bikes
    Miyata 610, Vinco V, Rocky Mountain Element
    Posts
    2,649
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Let's remember that the Dutch culture is very different from American culture. What works there might not work here because of the differences in courtesy and the way personal responsibility is handled.

    Az

  3. #3
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't buy this belief that X culture is more polite, patient and whatever else so it won't work in the US where our culture is rude, impatient and whatever else. We are all just people and could adapt to any changes were there any political will to make them.

    But I'm not so certain, either, that a lack of road regulations makes them safer. I suppose it is a continuum and you have to find the middle place where there are just enough rules to make it safe but not so much engineering to make the system too streamlined.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    My Bikes
    Jamis Nova
    Posts
    714
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I dont know if their culture is more polite, but they drive a TON less there than we do here. I lived there for a while, and they were much more polite on the road. But, its because they didnt drive in their day to day lives usually so when they did they werent all hopped up, aggravated, and in a big hurry.

    Personally, I have found US culture much more polite in general, we just get crazy when we get on the road.

  5. #5
    Diseased
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    My Bikes
    Trek FG conversion; Titanium track bike
    Posts
    60
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Kind of like this?

    I feel regulations are a lot like patching a tire as opposed to a properly designed new tire/road system.

  6. #6
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    That's really really light Indian traffic. Thanks for sharing, Asudef! I just returned from India. I'm very jetlagged still.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  7. #7
    N_C
    N_C is offline
    Banned. N_C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Bannation, forever.
    Posts
    2,887
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Asudef
    Kind of like this?

    I feel regulations are a lot like patching a tire as opposed to a properly designed new tire/road system.
    Holy ****! With traffic like that & no traffic control I'd hate to ride in India.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    College Park, MD
    Posts
    535
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    people are way too selfish and rude here for any traffic system that works in the Netherlands to work here. no traffic rules would deteriorate into everyone-for-himself anarchy very quickly.

  9. #9
    Yabba-Dabba-Doo! AlmostTrick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Bedrock, IL
    My Bikes
    1969 Schwinn Orange Krate, 5 speed stick shift
    Posts
    3,055
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Actually less regulation might work well for cyclists in the US. Once all the cars pile into each other it would be a simple matter to just ride around the wreckage!
    Have Bike, Will Travel

  10. #10
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Posts
    8,945
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by o-dog
    no traffic rules would deteriorate into everyone-for-himself anarchy very quickly.
    And that would be different, how?

    No worries

  11. #11
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    The Cracker Factory
    Posts
    24,353
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
    And that would be different, how?

    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  12. #12
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,454
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it's worth a try in the US. Of course, most people will dismiss it because it's a new idea and "we've never done it that way before." I hope people at least consider it.


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  13. #13
    more ape than man timmhaan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    8,093
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by o-dog
    people are way too selfish and rude here for any traffic system that works in the Netherlands to work here. no traffic rules would deteriorate into everyone-for-himself anarchy very quickly.
    not so fast. here in manhattan, one of the most crowded places in the country, there are heavy streams of traffic mixed with huge crowds of people, bicycles, busses, etc.

    what seems like anarchy is actually a carefully coordinated effort among all participants. drivers have to slow down in order to allow peds to cross the street (jay walking is a way of life here). eye contact and hand motions easily allow you to navigate the streets - regardless of traffic volume. accidents happen, but i would argue much less common than in other places.

    our system of traffic rules is a result of our litigious society. everyone is afraid of getting sued so things tend to be over regulated for protection. if a city had no traffic rules and a kid got mowed down, the city could be exposed to massive lawsuits.

  14. #14
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
    My Bikes
    1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
    Posts
    14,819
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What works in Manhattan, with its very slow, congested traffic, or even in many European cities, will not work on a 55mph prime arterial in the American suburbs. Low speeds reduce traffic conditions to a human scale at which eye contact, (polite) gestures, etc. can function reliably. Of course, we would also have to get rid of severe window tinting (not a bad idea, in my book, but I don't live in Phoenix).
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
    Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
    Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
    Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069

  15. #15
    Fattest Thin Man Az B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Directly above the center of the earth
    My Bikes
    Miyata 610, Vinco V, Rocky Mountain Element
    Posts
    2,649
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes
    I don't buy this belief that X culture is more polite, patient and whatever else so it won't work in the US where our culture is rude, impatient and whatever else. We are all just people and could adapt to any changes were there any political will to make them.
    You may be right in this particular circumstance, but it is true that cultures are very different worldwide and the way these cultures deal with issues can make a huge difference in public policy.

    As an example, visit Sweden sometime if you get the chance. They have one of the most liberal welfare systems on the planet, yet it is not abused. (Except by immigrants of course) Why is that? Is it because of the culture or the welfare system design?

    I've driven in many countries all over the world, and I can guarantee you that there are some cultures that are far more polite than others... behind the wheel or not. And I don't think it has to do with road regulations as it clearly happens in other areas as well.

    Az

  16. #16
    Diseased
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    My Bikes
    Trek FG conversion; Titanium track bike
    Posts
    60
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think it's just this feeling of anonymity people get when they get behind the wheel of their car that makes them feel like they don't have to follow any rules so long as they don't get caught. Some people are just very irritable and hostile so they do blatantly illegal things like speeding down the emergency lane to pass people during rush hr. Hell, even in a car I still find that these people are horrible drivers. They need to have designated common sense roads for people who are courteous and actually know how to drive.

    I haven't ridden in a long time but I've seen how dangerous it can be to be cyclist in my area. I'm not scared though, can't wait to get my bike so I can go riding.

  17. #17
    Sophomoric Member Roody's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Dancing in Lansing
    Posts
    20,454
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John E
    What works in Manhattan, with its very slow, congested traffic, or even in many European cities, will not work on a 55mph prime arterial in the American suburbs. Low speeds reduce traffic conditions to a human scale at which eye contact, (polite) gestures, etc. can function reliably. Of course, we would also have to get rid of severe window tinting (not a bad idea, in my book, but I don't live in Phoenix).
    As I understand it, one of the main purposes of this new concept is to slow down motor traffic and make streets more navigable for non-motor users. But of course it's simplistic to think that one method of traffic design will work in every situation. Long range, i want to see motor traffic drastically slowed to encourage non-motor alternatives and to discourage driving. Cars are a bad habit that we need to stop...soon!


    "Think Outside the Cage"

  18. #18
    Striving for Fredness deputyjones's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    West Michigan
    My Bikes
    Old Giant Rincon
    Posts
    1,191
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Asudef
    Kind of like this?

    I feel regulations are a lot like patching a tire as opposed to a properly designed new tire/road system.
    I totally agree, and that is my point. The Dutch have less regulation because their road systems are designed well enough that there is no need for it.
    Monsignor: We must always fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil that we must fear the most, and that is the indifference of good men.
    Connor: I do believe the monsignor's finally got the point.
    Murphy: Aye.

    OttawaCountyDSA.com

  19. #19
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Asudef
    Kind of like this?
    I think that video is set to play at about 2x to 3x actual speed.

    Look at the speed of the pedestrians. The cars aren't moving a lot faster.

  20. #20
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by John E
    What works in Manhattan, with its very slow, congested traffic, or even in many European cities, will not work on a 55mph prime arterial in the American suburbs. Low speeds reduce traffic conditions to a human scale at which eye contact, (polite) gestures, etc. can function reliably.
    Yesm I think a lot of downtowns would work well with the less-regulation/control more-negotiation approach. But the useful through roads in the suburbs are being designed for speed. It's pointless to argue for slowing traffic to increase safety when speed is the priority of both residents and traffic engineers. To make high speeds work reasonably safely, regulation and controls are often required.

  21. #21
    Senior Member sggoodri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Cary, NC
    My Bikes
    1983 Trek, 2001 Lemond, 2000 Gary Fisher
    Posts
    3,068
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Roody
    I think it's worth a try in the US. Of course, most people will dismiss it because it's a new idea and "we've never done it that way before."
    I think the parking lot in front of Wal-Mart works a lot like that. Cars and pedestrians mixed everywhere, and nobody moving very fast. I think that it would be more pleasant without the frustration over finding parking.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    North Carolina, USA
    My Bikes
    Road, Mtn, Tandem
    Posts
    760
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by deputyjones
    Great article about how the Dutch get it.
    I think this is a different (but similar) article: European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs

    ---begin quotes---
    European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs
    By Matthias Schulz

    Are streets without traffic signs conceivable? Seven cities and regions in Europe are giving it a try -- with good results.

    European traffic planners ... want drivers and pedestrians to interact in a free and humane way, as brethren ...

    The utopia has already become a reality in Makkinga... Stop signs and direction signs are nowhere to be seen... There aren't even any lines painted on the streets...

    "The many rules strip us of the most important thing: the ability to be considerate. We're losing our capacity for socially responsible behavior," says Dutch traffic guru Hans Monderman, one of the project's co-founders. "The greater the number of prescriptions, the more people's sense of personal responsibility dwindles."

    ... one of the insights of traffic psychology: Drivers will force the accelerator down ruthlessly only in situations where everything has been fully regulated. Where the situation is unclear, they're forced to drive more carefully and cautiously...

    The plans derive inspiration and motivation from a large-scale experiment in the town of Drachten in the Netherlands, which has 45,000 inhabitants. There, cars have already been driving over red natural stone for years. Cyclists dutifully raise their arm when they want to make a turn, and drivers communicate by hand signs, nods and waving.

    "More than half of our signs have already been scrapped," says traffic planner Koop Kerkstra. "Only two out of our original 18 traffic light crossings are left, and we've converted them to roundabouts." Now traffic is regulated by only two rules in Drachten: "Yield to the right" and "Get in someone's way and you'll be towed."

    Strange as it may seem, the number of accidents has declined dramatically. Experts from Argentina and the United States have visited ...
    ---end quotes---

  23. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    478
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My initial reaction was it's not going to work here in the US but I just saw the set-up on Beyond Tomorrow on discovery channel about the Dutch and it's basically a round-about with peds having right of way. I've to admit the local round-about they set-up few years ago actually works really well.... not sure about how they implemented the ped/cycle traffic in that area though.
    Supposedly safer too 8 major accidents over 4 years before and 0 major accidents over 4 years since the change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Rosar

    ---begin quotes---
    European Cities Do Away with Traffic Signs
    By Matthias Schulz

    Are streets without traffic signs conceivable? Seven cities and regions in Europe are giving it a try -- with good results.

    European traffic planners ... want drivers and pedestrians to interact in a free and humane way, as brethren ...

    The utopia has already become a reality in Makkinga... Stop signs and direction signs are nowhere to be seen... There aren't even any lines painted on the streets...

  24. #24
    Dominatrikes sbhikes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Still in Santa Barbara
    My Bikes
    Catrike Pocket, Lightning Thunderbold recumbent, Trek 3000 MTB.
    Posts
    4,920
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Crazy traffic it may be, but in India far more people ride bicycles in the midst of it than they do here in the US. Of course, that is all many of them can afford, but they seemed more practical sometimes if you ask me. Whenever we were stuck in a traffic jam, they rode right around us.

    This is the natural state of bicycles: to stay out of the way at the risk of being run over when traffic is moving fast, and to pass all the cars when traffic is moving slow. You may not like that reality, but it's pretty much the same everwhere I've been.
    ~Diane
    Recumbents: Lightning Thunderbolt, '06 Catrike Pocket. Upright: Trek Mountain Bike.
    8.5 mile commute. I like bike lanes.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    1,819
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by deputyjones
    Great article about how the Dutch get it. Meaning, safer roads come from road systems that are well designed not just regulated to heck.
    Nothing scares me more than "well designed" roads. I find it easier to ride in older east coast cities than newer west coast cities. Especially on roads that were set before WWI. The reason is because many just paved over colonial roads. And those roads were originally cow paths. So I prefer things designed by cows than by modern engineers and designers any day. Face it, it's only the cows that get it.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •