Speaking of traffic calming...
02-13-07, 09:51 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
They do get annoying to go over on bicycle every 100yrds. They don't slow one down, they don't cause any impact, but the cumulative efffect of going over a sequence of 8-10 of them is annoying, especially on a hot summer day going home.
The other annoyance is that they slow cars down to 15-20mph, who then speed up to 30-35 between them, often resulting in the car traveling at a near or slightly slower average speed than me on bicycle. So like you point out you catch the car at the humps, use brake to slow down (overtaking will just result in being overtaken again after bump) repeat, repeat.
Al
The other annoyance is that they slow cars down to 15-20mph, who then speed up to 30-35 between them, often resulting in the car traveling at a near or slightly slower average speed than me on bicycle. So like you point out you catch the car at the humps, use brake to slow down (overtaking will just result in being overtaken again after bump) repeat, repeat.
Al
In my experience speed bumps allow for cyclists to be faster than cars. The alternative traffic calming measure used in my burg is 4-way stops which are much more annoying for cyclists if you choose not to blow through them. 4 way stops have the same effect as speed bumps, except that the slow down/speed up cycle is exaggerated. Finally with the speed bumps, if you drive through the neighbourhood a lot, you learn that you can take them at a certain speed with no problems (about 25 km/h) and drive at that speed.
I have no problem going over the humps at any speed on my bike under 60 km/h (you might be thinking of the very sharp bumps - ours are actually designed for a car to go over at 30 km/h).
The main advantage of speed bumps is that they work - and anyone who tries to blow them will bottom out, causing major noise (and possibly damage to their undercarriage), but not (in most cases) an accident as opposed to disregarding 4 way stops and ROW at traffic circles. Trust me - cars do not take the speed humps in our neighbourhood faster than 25-30 km/h. Compliance is as close to 100% as you can get.
In another neighbourhood in TO they tried chicanes (little concrete islands that forced cars to swerve - esp. in north TO). Trouble was - cars kept plowing into them. Traffic circles have the problems I mentioned. I think the main reason that motorists don't like speed bumps is that there is no way to avoid slowing down (which is effective traffic calming in my books).
02-13-07, 10:28 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
Anyone else in here familiar with the citizen guerilla work in Holland in the town of Delft and the subsequent nationwide implementation of traffic calming in that country known as 'woonerfs' very interesting story.
I can understand being against traffic calming devices. I live on a street that has them and they don't really work. (Speed humps). What I am against are people who use bicycle "vulnerability" to be against traffic calming. What I am for, though, is traffic calming. I hope they find something that works because it's a pain in the you-know-what to live on a street where you wouldn't want to own a cat.
02-14-07, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
I'm not familiar with Holland, but as far as citizen guerilla traffic calming, there's a house nearby to me that puts out a plastic green man--high-vis green with an orange flag-- that has a sign that says "Caution Children" on it. They stick that out on the street on weekends.
I can understand being against traffic calming devices. I live on a street that has them and they don't really work. (Speed humps). What I am against are people who use bicycle "vulnerability" to be against traffic calming. What I am for, though, is traffic calming. I hope they find something that works because it's a pain in the you-know-what to live on a street where you wouldn't want to own a cat.
I can understand being against traffic calming devices. I live on a street that has them and they don't really work. (Speed humps). What I am against are people who use bicycle "vulnerability" to be against traffic calming. What I am for, though, is traffic calming. I hope they find something that works because it's a pain in the you-know-what to live on a street where you wouldn't want to own a cat.
My experience is quite different.
02-14-07, 10:13 AM
#54
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
I can understand being against traffic calming devices. I live on a street that has them and they don't really work. (Speed humps). What I am against are people who use bicycle "vulnerability" to be against traffic calming. What I am for, though, is traffic calming. I hope they find something that works because it's a pain in the you-know-what to live on a street where you wouldn't want to own a cat.
I have to admit, anecdotally speaking, it appears to me that speed bumps, dips, and so on reduce traffic speed. That is, I have not personally observed the uber-aggressive driving mentioned earlier. Although I can believe it occurs. I just don't know whether such behavior is common. Then again, that is what scientific studies are for.
Is it the case that there are other factors that determine whether speed bumps/dips are effective?
02-14-07, 10:18 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by rajman
In my experience speed bumps allow for cyclists to be faster than cars. The alternative traffic calming measure used in my burg is 4-way stops which are much more annoying for cyclists if you choose not to blow through them. 4 way stops have the same effect as speed bumps, except that the slow down/speed up cycle is exaggerated. Finally with the speed bumps, if you drive through the neighbourhood a lot, you learn that you can take them at a certain speed with no problems (about 25 km/h) and drive at that speed.
Although I have to think about whether I agree with the comparison to a four-way stop. My 30-second reaction is that once you insert an intersection, the dynamics are very different.
02-14-07, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand
My experience speed bumps is similar to yours.
Although I have to think about whether I agree with the comparison to a four-way stop. My 30-second reaction is that once you insert an intersection, the dynamics are very different.
Although I have to think about whether I agree with the comparison to a four-way stop. My 30-second reaction is that once you insert an intersection, the dynamics are very different.
Does that make more sense?
02-14-07, 11:39 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by rajman
In my experience speed bumps allow for cyclists to be faster than cars.
I often keep up with motorists on speed humped roads. They seem to go slower with a combination of humps and bike traffic on the road than with just the humps. Maybe they are going slower between humps in order to avoid leapfrogging a cyclist?
I have no problem or discomfort riding over the speed humps at 25 mph, but I wouldn't do it without both hands on the bars.
02-14-07, 11:44 PM
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some speed bumps, humps -whatever- around here, have narrow cuts for the cyclists to ride thru. pretty dang nice.
02-15-07, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
some speed bumps, humps -whatever- around here, have narrow cuts for the cyclists to ride thru. pretty dang nice.
Humps full across road as SG pointed out are fine to ride over even at speed, 25mph - at the run out at the bottom of a hill I've them at 30mph and if expecting it is not problem.
What I don't like about them is they theh don't calm traffic smoothly, instead create a focus of driver to deal with the bumps (intead of unpredicable obsiticals) and speed between, them slow hard, acclerate hard. I hear it every day in my neighborhood. Interacting with this behavior on a bike is irritating.
Al
02-15-07, 09:28 AM
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heck, interacting with irritating driver behavior on a bike is usually irritating regardless of the cause.
I think traffic calming can work for cyclists if implemented correctly; the onus is on the advocacy organizations to realize that redesign of public rights of way should consider all users of that space.
a concerted effort against traffic calming leads to faster traffic, and correspondingly less friendly road conditions for bicyclists of all abilities. I expect a result of faster traffic is less people bicycling.
Increasing on street and neighborhood traffic calming measures will reclaim roads from the exclusive domain of the automobile and give it back to the public, regardless of mode of locomotion or destination.
I think traffic calming can work for cyclists if implemented correctly; the onus is on the advocacy organizations to realize that redesign of public rights of way should consider all users of that space.
a concerted effort against traffic calming leads to faster traffic, and correspondingly less friendly road conditions for bicyclists of all abilities. I expect a result of faster traffic is less people bicycling.
Increasing on street and neighborhood traffic calming measures will reclaim roads from the exclusive domain of the automobile and give it back to the public, regardless of mode of locomotion or destination.
02-15-07, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
I think traffic calming can work for cyclists if implemented correctly;.
What types of calming methods were missed in this guide?
Al
02-15-07, 09:37 AM
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Many drivers soon learn that if you take those speed humps at 40 mph you cannot even tell they are there. They don't bottom out. They fly over them like there's nothing there. It can be almost comical when some guy in a work truck does it and his load goes flying out the flat-bed. But it's no laughing matter that I've got a bowl full of nails and screws that I've collected from the speed hump nearest to my driveway. But most people can fly over them without feeling a thing.
The kinds of traffic calming that people use cyclist vulnerability to try to oppose are the mini-roundabouts and the bulbouts.
They claim that mini-roundabouts and bulbouts cause cyclists to have to enter the roadway space where motorists are, putting them in danger. This is silly because if everybody is going 15 or 5 or whatever, you just file in line in an orderly fashion no matter what your vehicle.
The thing is, these people know darn well they can continue to go 40 mph through any of this stuff so long as nobody gets in their way to slow them down. So they use a phony dangerousness to bicycles argument to try to win sympathy without giving away their true motive: to continue to speed recklessly through the neighborhood.
The kinds of traffic calming that people use cyclist vulnerability to try to oppose are the mini-roundabouts and the bulbouts.
They claim that mini-roundabouts and bulbouts cause cyclists to have to enter the roadway space where motorists are, putting them in danger. This is silly because if everybody is going 15 or 5 or whatever, you just file in line in an orderly fashion no matter what your vehicle.
The thing is, these people know darn well they can continue to go 40 mph through any of this stuff so long as nobody gets in their way to slow them down. So they use a phony dangerousness to bicycles argument to try to win sympathy without giving away their true motive: to continue to speed recklessly through the neighborhood.
02-15-07, 09:45 AM
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good lord, al, redesign of public rights of way is an imperfect process, the trends are just now shifting. I'm not a traffic planner. heck, sometimes even roads as they stand are "imperfect," even for the drivers!
city street scapes are in constant redesign over the decades, predicating status quo instead of change will leave streets and cities in the 20th century. some communities are taking proactive responses by attempts at redesign.
YOU, as a vehicular cyclist, has to be able to accomodate different road designs. dude, one must flow with it, so to speak.
complaining about 'flawed' attempts at redesign will lead to faster traffic and less riders using the roads; redesign, even if imperfect, will show the public the roads are NOT the exclusive domain of the automobile.
how many cyclists do you see on your high speed arterials on your commute, Al? do you think there's ANY way a community can design public rights of way to make pedestrians feel safer crossing the streets? to encourage MORE cyclists to ride?
now, before you start posting pictures of your flawed bike lane redesigns, realize that a lot of redesigns do not look like yours in Arizona. don't go all specific, because I can come up with pictures of road redesigns that work remarkably well here in seattle if you want some pictures.
Some communities are attempting to make public rights of way safer and more usable by all.
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
city street scapes are in constant redesign over the decades, predicating status quo instead of change will leave streets and cities in the 20th century. some communities are taking proactive responses by attempts at redesign.
YOU, as a vehicular cyclist, has to be able to accomodate different road designs. dude, one must flow with it, so to speak.
complaining about 'flawed' attempts at redesign will lead to faster traffic and less riders using the roads; redesign, even if imperfect, will show the public the roads are NOT the exclusive domain of the automobile.
how many cyclists do you see on your high speed arterials on your commute, Al? do you think there's ANY way a community can design public rights of way to make pedestrians feel safer crossing the streets? to encourage MORE cyclists to ride?
now, before you start posting pictures of your flawed bike lane redesigns, realize that a lot of redesigns do not look like yours in Arizona. don't go all specific, because I can come up with pictures of road redesigns that work remarkably well here in seattle if you want some pictures.
Some communities are attempting to make public rights of way safer and more usable by all.
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
Last edited by Bekologist; 02-15-07 at 09:51 AM.
02-15-07, 09:45 AM
#64
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Originally Posted by sbhikes
..and the bulbouts.
They also can cause congestion with larger numbers of cyclists, intentional grouping or not.
Al
02-15-07, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
good lord, al, redesign of public rights of way is an imperfect process, the trends are just now shifting. I'm not a traffic planner. heck, sometimes even roads as they stand are "imperfect," even for the drivers!
city street scapes are in constant redesign over the decades, predicating status quo instead of change will leave streets and cities in the 20th century. some communities are taking proactive responses by attempts at redesign.
YOU, as a vehicular cyclist, has to be able to accomodate different road designs. dude, one must flow with it, so to speak.
complaining about 'flawed' attempts at redesign will lead to faster traffic and less riders using the roads; redesign, even if imperfect, will show the public the roads are NOT the exclusive domain of the automobile.
how many cyclists do you see on your high speed arterials on your commute, Al? do you think there's ANY way a community can design public rights of way to make pedestrians feel safer crossing the streets? to encourage MORE cyclists to ride?
now, before you start posting pictures of your flawed bike lane redesigns, realize that a lot of redesigns do not look like yours in Arizona. don't go all specific, because I can come up with pictures of road redesings that work remarkably well here in seattle if you want some pictures.
keep it in the theoretical of status quo autocentric road designs, versus communities attempting to make public rights of way safer and more usable by all.
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
city street scapes are in constant redesign over the decades, predicating status quo instead of change will leave streets and cities in the 20th century. some communities are taking proactive responses by attempts at redesign.
YOU, as a vehicular cyclist, has to be able to accomodate different road designs. dude, one must flow with it, so to speak.
complaining about 'flawed' attempts at redesign will lead to faster traffic and less riders using the roads; redesign, even if imperfect, will show the public the roads are NOT the exclusive domain of the automobile.
how many cyclists do you see on your high speed arterials on your commute, Al? do you think there's ANY way a community can design public rights of way to make pedestrians feel safer crossing the streets? to encourage MORE cyclists to ride?
now, before you start posting pictures of your flawed bike lane redesigns, realize that a lot of redesigns do not look like yours in Arizona. don't go all specific, because I can come up with pictures of road redesings that work remarkably well here in seattle if you want some pictures.
keep it in the theoretical of status quo autocentric road designs, versus communities attempting to make public rights of way safer and more usable by all.
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
As to arterials, first I saw ~8 other cyclist on arterials this morning, I left a bit later at 7 so saw more than usual. Traffic calming locally has nothing to do with 45mph SL arterials - the focus is 100% on 25mph SL residential type streets.
Where have I ever suggested I can't go with the flow of road design? But just because I can, doesn't mean I dont' want to consider or influence the road design
Al
02-15-07, 09:57 AM
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Al, I am okay, are you okay?
It started to look like you wanted to lobby for the autocentric status quo.
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
It started to look like you wanted to lobby for the autocentric status quo.
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
02-15-07, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
can communities redesign roads to benefit pedestrians? can they redesign roads to benefit both pedestrians AND bicyclists? I assert that they CAN.
al
02-15-07, 10:08 AM
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Bulbouts usually have reflectors on them here.
The thing is, people who live on the streets that have traffic calming overwhelmingly support them. They requested them, they want more of them. The people who drive through those streets are usually the ones opposed to them and they'll go to great lengths to hold on to their shortcuts. Even go so far as to hire phony bike advocates to push their cause.
I say let the people who live in the area decide whether or not to have traffic calming.
Personally, I like the roundabouts that have pretty landscaping. My street isn't good for that though. It's long and curves slightly and on a steep hill with few intersections and patchy sidewalks (exist in some places and not in others). So speed humps it is.
The thing is, people who live on the streets that have traffic calming overwhelmingly support them. They requested them, they want more of them. The people who drive through those streets are usually the ones opposed to them and they'll go to great lengths to hold on to their shortcuts. Even go so far as to hire phony bike advocates to push their cause.
I say let the people who live in the area decide whether or not to have traffic calming.
Personally, I like the roundabouts that have pretty landscaping. My street isn't good for that though. It's long and curves slightly and on a steep hill with few intersections and patchy sidewalks (exist in some places and not in others). So speed humps it is.
02-15-07, 10:16 AM
#69
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Originally Posted by Bekologist
complaining about 'flawed' attempts at redesign will lead to faster traffic and less riders using the roads; redesign, even if imperfect, will show the public the roads are NOT the exclusive domain of the automobile.
02-15-07, 10:32 AM
#70
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sbhikes:
So do what Portland does and put a cut through the curb on the bulb out. Kind of a mini bike path through the bulb out so cyclists are not forced to merge into the full sized lane.
So do what Portland does and put a cut through the curb on the bulb out. Kind of a mini bike path through the bulb out so cyclists are not forced to merge into the full sized lane.
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02-15-07, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
So do what Portland does and put a cut through the curb on the bulb out.
Al
02-15-07, 11:56 AM
#72
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Originally Posted by noisebeam
Thats similar to what was done here for a choker - see last page: https://www.tempe.gov/tim/PDFs/Colleg...2.05.06%20.pdf
Al
Al
One thing that I failed to mention earlier is that some of these designs might prove troublesome during foul weather. In particular, I am thinking of snow and ice accumulation. For the time being, I am going to ignore the issue until I can think about it more. But I am interested in the experiences and thoughts of others.
Given the comments so far, I am beginning to think that there are a lot of interactions going on here. For instance, Noisebeam points out that speed bumps cause a lot of intermittent acceleration/deceleration which might be more dangerous than plain-jane speed. I have a feeling that this behavior depends on the level of congestion, the alternatives that motorists have, and the spacing of the bumps.
EDIT: Note that I am using speed bumps as an example; but I think that the idea applies to many of the traffic calming tools discussed.
Last edited by invisiblehand; 02-15-07 at 12:08 PM.
02-15-07, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand
... thanks for the link. It helps me visualize some of the terminology.
https://www.tempe.gov/tim/Traffic/pdf...TMP6.26.07.pdf
Check Sec. 4 starting on p.11 - it provides visuals of calming designs and a page dedicated to each on pro/cons. Speed humps are covered on p.23
Last edited by noisebeam; 08-23-07 at 10:56 AM.
02-15-07, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff
sbhikes:
So do what Portland does and put a cut through the curb on the bulb out. Kind of a mini bike path through the bulb out so cyclists are not forced to merge into the full sized lane.
So do what Portland does and put a cut through the curb on the bulb out. Kind of a mini bike path through the bulb out so cyclists are not forced to merge into the full sized lane.
02-15-07, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand
... thanks for the link. It helps me visualize some of the terminology.
One thing that I failed to mention earlier is that some of these designs might prove troublesome during foul weather. In particular, I am thinking of snow and ice accumulation. For the time being, I am going to ignore the issue until I can think about it more. But I am interested in the experiences and thoughts of others.
Given the comments so far, I am beginning to think that there are a lot of interactions going on here. For instance, Noisebeam points out that speed bumps cause a lot of intermittent acceleration/deceleration which might be more dangerous than plain-jane speed. I have a feeling that this behavior depends on the level of congestion, the alternatives that motorists have, and the spacing of the bumps.
EDIT: Note that I am using speed bumps as an example; but I think that the idea applies to many of the traffic calming tools discussed.
One thing that I failed to mention earlier is that some of these designs might prove troublesome during foul weather. In particular, I am thinking of snow and ice accumulation. For the time being, I am going to ignore the issue until I can think about it more. But I am interested in the experiences and thoughts of others.
Given the comments so far, I am beginning to think that there are a lot of interactions going on here. For instance, Noisebeam points out that speed bumps cause a lot of intermittent acceleration/deceleration which might be more dangerous than plain-jane speed. I have a feeling that this behavior depends on the level of congestion, the alternatives that motorists have, and the spacing of the bumps.
EDIT: Note that I am using speed bumps as an example; but I think that the idea applies to many of the traffic calming tools discussed.